Green industrial lubricant developed

What is so new about that? Castor bean oil was used a longtime ago! Sugar derivative viscosity
index improvers, or even guar/kelp thickeners can be used! I think thats how 'Castrol' British en-
gine lubricants got their name!! Ricin {castor
bean based hot engine lubricants] oxidize easily
through some unsaturated double bonds, and I think thats why saturated fossil derived oils
replaced them!
F.M.

Continuation of my #1 post: Well if its a grease
consistency product not subject to high heat,
moisture as in wheel bearings, or U joints then I suppose ricin based greases with anti oxidants,
and biocides should work! I think some ot these
compositions were used during WWI, and WWII when
fossil oil derivatives were scarce?! I think
even for rear-differentials they should be OK! They have good boundary high friction properties.
F.M.

frank miller wrote:

What is so new about that? Castor bean oil was used a longtime ago! Sugar derivative viscosity
index improvers, or even guar/kelp thickeners can be used! I think thats how 'Castrol' British en-
gine lubricants got their name!! Ricin {castor
bean based hot engine lubricants] oxidize easily
through some unsaturated double bonds, and I think thats why saturated fossil derived oils
replaced them!
F.M.

You sound like you understand chemistry. Where would main chain unsaturation be found in these molecules? Could you be more specific? You must be referring to carbon-carbon double bonds when you speak of unsaturation, right? Because a carbonyl double bond is not usually referred to as meaning "unsaturation". But maybe you are referring to carbonyls?

And also,(I'm generally interested, not picking on you) even if an unsaturated C-C bond gets oxidized, it shouldn't affect the viscosity (performance of the lubricant) should it? I mean unless scission occurs, right? Oxidation doesn't necessarily mean molecular scission does it?

Don't be afraid to use jargon, I am studying chemistry, only first year college but I study hard.

This stuff sounds interesting, hope it succeeds. Although I wonder if there is any concern about toxicity? I thought ricin was biologically poisonous? Of course I'm sure they use a modified ricin, right? Do you know what that modification might be?
And do you know what the forms of cellulose are that they use? Is it a polymeric derivitive like xanthate or acetate or nitrate? Or is it more like a thickening agent like sodium carboxymethyl ether?

Well lucky for you I ruined the prank. I was going to change my name and act like I was a first year chemistry student but then I forgot to change my name. It would have been interesting to see your response/s and how I might be able to expose you yet again as a fake chemist.(well this still will serve to show you are a fake chemist) I wonder why you try so hard to act like you know something about chemistry when it is clear that you don't. Oh well now that you know what I was up to, the questions still remain,

where the heck are you going to find unstaturation in a ricin which is a polypeptide, there is no main chain unsaturation in a polypeptide. Why do you say stuff that is clearly wrong if you're not sure? If there is any unsaturation then you need to tell me where, or again you are exposed as a liar.

So I am anxious to hear your answers. please tell me all about unstauration in cellulose/ricin lubricants. BTW cellulose does not have any main chain unsaturation either. It has none anywhere matter fact. So you have some explaining to do,

or you could do what you have never been able to do before up to this point, that is to simply say you were wrong and you are sorry for making that statement. But you won't. Take care good buddy.

Answer to 'dumb-ass Pokay #3/#4 troll, flamer, libeler, ignorant punk: Castor oil is a trigly-
ceride, with numerous fatty acids such as 10-Unde-
cenoic acid with one double bond between the first
CH2= CH {CH28} CO2H...Riconoleic acid is the main
slightly unsaturated acid! Ricin, from the trans ricinelaidic acid, is not present in naturally
occuring fats, and oils! However during certain
processes in extracting, oxidizing, treating castor oil, its a by product!
Castor oil as a laxative is an example of ricin
free pharmaceutical product!
Please Pokay stop this infernal stalking! If you have a question than simply ask it! Don't equivo-cate! Thank you!!
F.M.

Correction to my #1 post:"...Ricinoleic acid ester
{castor bean based hot-engine lubricants} oxidize
easily through some unsaturated double bonds,..
eventually forming gums, and clogging oil passages.
F.M.

Correction to post #2: "...then I suppose ricino-
leic acid ester containing based greases..."
F.M.

Generally soak my speedos in woolite, recycle the remnant residue for pie filling during the holidays - now I know it has some natural lubricant qualities...zoiks!

Pokay1kaduB wrote:

<quoted text>You sound like you understand chemistry.

He sounds like a BS artist for whom english is a third language.

Actually its my fourth language twit! Whats your
excuse #9?
F.M.

Clarification of my #7 & #8 posts: The University
of Huelva is in Spain. One of the classical name
for castor oil is 'ricinola oil'! The above abstr-
act nomenclature "based on ricin oil, and cellu-
lose" is very possibly a mistranslation from the Spanish, to English! I would doubt very much anyone would industrially be handling such large quantities of ricin, to transform into a ubiqui-
tous lubricant! Hence the possible isolation of
the methyl ester of ricinoleic acid, once the
castor oil tri-glyceride has been split into glycerine, and whatever desired useful fatty acid!
F.M.

writewingproxycontin wrote:

<quoted text>
He sounds like a BS artist for whom english is a third language.

Yea, how 'bout that? He makes a statement that there is unsaturation in ricin and cellulose derivitives. I ask him where I might find unsaturation in a ricin (polypeptide) molecule or a cellulosic molecule. Simple so far, right? Then he tells me about some fatty acid in castor oil. I didn't ask about some fatty acid from castor oil. Any fatty acid from castor oil would NOT be ricin.
You hit it on the head, he's a BSer but his "art" is too predictable.

frank miller wrote:

Ricin {castor
bean based hot engine lubricants] oxidize easily
through some unsaturated double bonds

Clearly Frank indicates ricin contains double bonds. It doesn't matter where it comes from (castor beans or Bush's baked beans) ricin is a polypeptide and as such has no double bonds that you could call unsaturation. But of course I'll hear about what a libeling troll I am and how Parkay margarine has some unsaturation contained in the hydrocarbon portions.

He's more a comedian. He thinks your comment about "third language" is a compliment, he doesn't realize that a "first" language is the most fluent and then down from there. Then he insults himself by saying English is actually his fourth language. Maybe we should ask him to speak in his "first" language, we might have better luck understanding him if we do the translating ourselves.

frank miller wrote:

Answer to 'dumb-ass Pokay #3/#4 troll, flamer, libeler, ignorant punk: Castor oil is a trigly-
ceride, with numerous fatty acids such as 10-Unde-
cenoic acid with one double bond between the first
CH2= CH {CH28} CO2H...Riconoleic acid is the main
slightly unsaturated acid! Ricin, from the trans ricinelaidic acid, is not present in naturally
occuring fats, and oils! However during certain
processes in extracting, oxidizing, treating castor oil, its a by product!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R icin
Ricin is a lectin, a protein, a poisonous protein that is naturally occurring, NOT a "byproduct". The article said, "Ricin oil". So I assume it did not mean ricinoleic acid. I figured they were referring to a modified form of the polypeptide ricin which they refer to as ricin oil.
Something doesn't have to be a fatty acid to be "oily", it doesn't even have to be a hydrocarbon to be oily. Do you really think they were meaning that they use an unsaturated fatty acid as a lubricant without modification? Fatty acids are generally not a good choice for the main ingredient of a lubricant. They are used for "additives". And even then they are modified somewhat. I don't know all the modifications but one of them surely would be hydrogenation if there were any unsaturation in the fatty acid.

Only you would use an unsaturated fatty acid as the main ingredient in your brand of motor oil.

And it would work fine for you until you had to actually demonstrate it in person to someone else.

frank miller wrote:

Please Pokay stop this infernal stalking! If you have a question than simply ask it! Don't equivo-cate! Thank you!!
F.M.

"And do you know what forms of cellulose they use? Is it a polymeric derivitive like xanthate or acetate or nitrate? Or is it more like a thickening agent like sodium carboxymethyl ether? "

Those are some unanswered questions I asked you in my first post to you. I "simply asked" them. Now can you simply answer them?

Frank, you're not sure how to answer a question? Well let me show you by example. Let's pretend you asked me a question,:

Frank, say you ask, "Hey PK, why are fatty acids not a good choice for the main ingredient of a lubricant"?

I respond, "Well you see, in raw form they are not much different than putting soap in your crankcase. Soap isn't the worst but isn't the best idea, and of course the unsaturation would render it useless in no time by gumming up (polymerizing) through oxygen attack at allylic sites. They have to be modified. Specifically that means, for starters, hydrogenation would have to be carried out to saturate the molecule and the carboxylic ends would probably have to be reduced as well. Not just reduced to the alcohols (fusel oil) but maybe all the way. And that of course is too much work and that is also why I am thinking they are looking at a molecule other than a fatty acid. I think a ricin or modified ricin might be a good starting place, don't you? Raw ricinoleic acid, not so much.

Funny though how a small or certain percentage of polar fatty acid type additives are so very good as friction reducers and stabilizers and detergents but aren't good by themselves as a main ingredient. I'm sure there is plenty of interesting ideas out there to be had, don't you agree? "

There Frank I not only attempted an answer but attempted to engage in an actual discussion.

Isn't life unfair? You have to actually respond, and do so in a pertinent way in order to answer a question. It's a jungle out there.

frank miller wrote:

Clarification of my #7 & #8 posts: The University
of Huelva is in Spain. One of the classical name
for castor oil is 'ricinola oil'! The above abstr-
act nomenclature "based on ricin oil, and cellu-
lose" is very possibly a mistranslation from the Spanish, to English! I would doubt very much anyone would industrially be handling such large quantities of ricin, to transform into a ubiqui-
tous lubricant! Hence the possible isolation of
the methyl ester of ricinoleic acid, once the
castor oil tri-glyceride has been split into glycerine, and whatever desired useful fatty acid!
F.M.

I'm impressed, you seem like you're posting a genuine opinion.

First they would have to isolate the ricinoleic acid and then they would methylate it. But then what do they do with it? What good is it like that? They would have to reduce the crap out of it to make it useful as a lubricant. Of course the requirements for certain greases are not like engine oil. So maybe they can find uses for different grades of "biolubes" and as such employ some amount of these fattty acids but I still don't think they are trying to imply the use of fatty acids.

I'm not going to act like I know everything (you should try it sometime), I think ricinoleic acid occurs naturally, don't know if that means as the glyceride (fat) or as the actual separate fatty acid.

I actually don't see the problem in handling large amounts of ricin. After all it is a lectin, naturally found in potatoes as well, and thanks to GMO technology we have 50X more of it in there.

The reason I don't see a problem with it is that it has to be ingested to be harmful, and just like gasoline, if it isn't ingested/inhaled it isn't dangerous. So gasoline could/should be considered more dangerous.

Answer to "Pokay #12/#13/#14: God I'm really getting tired of your crap! Leave me alone, for
God's sake! Polypeptides are protein derivatives, with amino acid polymerized groups! I was just
remarking on a Topix post, and primarily on the very scary "ricin oil" nomenclature, which is ob-
viously something Authorities would be very
concerned with, if not corrected by the University
of Huelva in Spain!!
I'm not in the business of consulting on the Internet! Besides considering you don't even have a formal degree in Chemistry! You are a simple minded jealous and envious blowhard who has been
stalking me on the Internet now since about February 6th. 2009, on about 3 Topix threads, and now 4 with this one! Get a life for God's sake
self medicating creep, you are a menace to any-
one wanting to share my 45 years of Industrial
R&D experience; numerous US, and Foreign very
commercialized assigned Patents; Scientific
papers; with extreme-pressure lubricant addi-tives chemical specialty; among 4 other very
competitive very different fields of expertise
of which I'm still a World leader in!!
I can't print the process to make very toxic
ricin on the Internet idiot, nor can I print its formula for God's sake moron! Nor can I suggest
ways to make oil soluble sugar, guar, kelp deri-
vatives! I'm sure the University of Huelva very
capable chemists have filed a Patent on their
additives, as the ricinoleic methyl ester has already been made; just like the soybean fatty
acid methyl ester, used I think in bio-diesel
fuels, with various modifications to match regu-
lar kerosene, and additives!
So please leave me alone!! Stop trying to discredit me Pokay!!
F.M

Which one of my questions are you responding to Frank? I can't tell if you are even attempting an answer. You typed all that mish mash and I still don't know if you (in all your experience as our leading R & D chemist for 45 yrs, LOL) believe that "cellulose derivitives" refers to polymeric derivitives such as nitrates and actetates or if it refers to smaller dervitives like hydroxypropyl ether and such. Show some of your experience/knowledge, don't just say you have it.

I don't know if you agree that ricin is quite a bit less dangerous than handling gasoline. Again you are not on here to discuss anything, only to talk to yourself. I've never witnessed you actually discuss anything with anyone ever. I bet you're a real hoot at parties.

I've got more than one formal degree in chemistry but what does it matter to anyone on here? Say I didn't. Point is I asked you a bunch of questions and made a bunch of points, why do you respond to me without addressing any of them? Am I supposed to believe that YOU have a formal degree in chemistry when you think "anhydrous" is a noun that is synonymous with "anhydride"? And that benzoyl peroxide is a crosslinking agent, and that styrene can "crosslink" with itself (it's called dimerizing but I don't even think you were referring to that, you have no clue what a dimer is) and you couldn't explain how orcein, a substituted hydrazine can be aromatic, and you still think CO2 is polar, and you still think that 100% of dissolved CO2 can exist as carbonic acid, and you can't even tell me what fire is on a MOLECULAR scale, and you can't even describe the structure of simple styrene, and you used to think not all molecules vibrate, and you thought carbon disulfide was a mercaptan....and...I could go on,
sure it is clear you have been trying to teach yourself some chemistry but seems you're inventing it along the way to suit your "needs". Natural law does not bend because you want it to.

And Frank, there's nothing bad about making mistakes like thinking benzoyl peroxide is a crosslinking agent when it is an iniator, that's how you learn, but when you claim to be America's top R & D chemist and then when confronted with concepts that should be easy for you, you fall flat on your face and you insist that you are right instead of accepting the correct answer even when it is obvious and in print in any popular textbook.

My God thats even worst if indeed you do have a
formal Chemistry degree, as you admitted around
April or May 2009 that you didn't know much about chemistry, but a lot on "CO2AGW"!! No chemist would ever equivocate, a zillion times, on every,
and each insights I have had since you began to troll, flame, libel me as a fake chemist at least
40 time now with those of yesterday!

Now you are again trying to bait me on some revolving door argument! Are you *insane ??
Or did your troll leader put you up to this?
*I will not respond anymore moron, albeit you once wrote that insults energize you!!
F.M.

Answer to your idiotic #17 about extremely toxic
ricin not being worst than gasoline!
"Ricin: White powder. The tox-albumin of the castor oil bean, being the poisonous principle.
Method of extraction...Uses: As a reagent for pepsin, and trypsin. Caution: Extremely poiso-
nous; handle with care; small particle in cut or abrasion, eye or nose may prove fatal. Poison label." Page 946/947; The Condensed Chemical
Dictionary 1958 {co. 1919-1958} Reihold Publi-
shing Corp. New York London.
Well albeit it is extracted from the trans rici-
nelaidic acid, which is not present in the ori-
ginal castor bean oil, the tox-albumin ricin
would be a protein, or polypeptide! So it appears you have that general structure right! But why not copy me the same info I just double checked?
And why say its no more toxic than gasoline?
My only concern was the generic word "ricin"
in the abstract, which would be cause for panic
if not translated right!
But your whole thrust is one of guessing what
Patent pending gelled grease additives were in-
vented by the Huelva chemits! And extracting out of me methods to make otherwise WATER soluble
sugar, guar, kelp,{unknown to lay Topix readers}
derivatives for confectioneries, cosmetics into OIL soluble ones! So please leave me alone!
F.M.