Theological Test for Christians
Yes, Paul often contradicted what Jesus said, in my humble opinionWell, right now I would rather discuss Paul versus these other writers, okay. Now, since you questioned if Paul contradicted what Jesus taught, please review the following four examples and decide for yourself. Please know that there are many other examples, but I just decided to list a few as follows (smile): l. Eating with sinners…….strictly forbidden (Paul) or highly welcomed (Jesus) Paul – But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat (1 Cor 5:11). Jesus – And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Mark 2:16-17). 2. Requirement for salvation/eternal life…..confessing and believing (Paul) or doing that Father’s will (Jesus) Paul – That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Rom 10:9) Jesus – Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven (Mat 7:21). 3. Feeding people……..only if they work (Paul) or if they are hungry (Jesus) Paul – For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat (2 Thess 3:10). Jesus –For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: (Mat 25:35) 4. Homosexuality……unm istakably wrong (Paul) or not even mentioned (Jesus) Paul – “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet” (Rom 1:26-27). Jesus – He did not make any references to homosexuality. Perhaps, either Jesus forgot or it wasn’t going on during His time? How about this, perhaps, it just wasn’t an issue with Jesus (smile…just kidding)? 5. Keeping the law……no longer necessary (Paul) or is required (Jesus) Paul – But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Jesus - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:17-19). (8 hrs ago | post #102)
Theological Test for Christians
Okay, Taranis, my friend, I said that I was an English grammar instructor. Did you think that suggested that I actually knew how to write and speak English correctly (lol)? But if you do not mind, please go ahead and point out my grammatical errors for me…..other than the word usage error I made in writing “that” instead of “than” (smileI had been reading many of your previous posts about Paul teachings versus Jesus’ teaching, and I can clearly see that this is at least one area where we agree (lol). (9 hrs ago | post #97)
Theological Test for Christians
whoops! should read messsage, not massage (lol). (10 hrs ago | post #94)
Theological Test for Christians
If I may chime in, Some Dude, may I respectfully ask if you knew that at the time that Paul wrote this passage, the four Gospels did not exist? Thus, Paul had a different massage that Jesus, right (smile)? (10 hrs ago | post #93)
Will a die-hard skeptics agree to worship God someday?
Who claimed that “this was a “completely objective observation?” On the other hand, I specifically stated that “there is no way to verify or reject this belief proposition from an objective perspective (post #93)? And I also said that we are actually debating “if our perspectives are consistent with the truth, since the truth is independent of them (post #102In my humble opinion, whether it’s from an exoteric or esoteric perspective, the best that one can hope for is to arrive at a proposition and conclusion that is consistent with the truth, rightIf we get too caught up in the process, we might just lose sight of the objective, right (smile)? Thus, the KISS method of discerning the truth might be very helpful (lol). (10 hrs ago | post #105)
Thank you for your kind words. And yes, I totally agree about the mixing of lies with the truth. Unfortunately, (and with all due respect) many of the today’s Christians practices originated with heathen beliefs/rituals. In fact, the prophet Jeremiah explicitly warns about this at Jere 10:1-5I can certainly understand that. In fact, Christmas was outlawed in Boston, MA, around the 17th century because of its pagan tiesYes, I totally agree. But what’s so sad (in my humble opinion) is that many people do not even consider lying/deceiving their children about Santa Claus is actually being dishonest, but rather just following a tradition. And again, what did Jesus explicitly say about following the traditions of man (smile)? (10 hrs ago | post #677)
Okay, is it your assertion that Irenaeus quoted the complete longer ending (Mark 16:9-20) or are you asserting that he only quoted one verse (Mark 16:19)? You see, my research has revealed the following excerpt from Irenaeus writing, i.e., “Against Heresies (Book Three, Chapter 10:5)”: “Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: “So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God;” confirming what had been spoken by the prophet: “The Lord said to my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand, until I make Thy foes Thy footstool.” Thus God and the Father are truly one and the same; He who was announced by the prophets, and handed down by the true Gospel; whom we Christians worship and love with the whole heart, as the Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things therein..” Here’s a web link: http://www.logosli brary.org/irenaeus /heresies/310.html Also, I think that I ran across the earlier reference that you had made. Please check post #6 and #7 on the following web link (smile): http://www.topix.c om/forum/religion/ christian/TNBCE2F5 VB757OUKO After carefully reading these two posts, I concede that you do offer what I would consider to be “creditable evidence” that at least parts of Mark 16:9-20 was in fact mentioned prior to the oldest two Greek manuscripts. On the other hand, I notice that Mansoor Ali offered a pretty strong rebuttal to your claim at post #16. Thus, I am very interested in what your reply might be to his rebuttal (smile). In any event, you have given me (a skeptic) some creditable evidence to consider; thereby, forcing me to do some more homework (lolWent missing? If I may respectfully ask, “Why is this “went missing text” now a part of Mark 16, especially since it is not a part of the two oldest and most respected NT Greek manuscriptsAfter reviewing all this evidence, I am divided within myself (lol). (10 hrs ago | post #106)
continuedYou are correct….my journey is not completely over, but the landing gears have been put down, and the plane has started its descent (smile). And fortunately, I have awakened to a new reality along the journey. If I may return to the earlier example, I would compare my awakening to the 7-year old that really believed in Santa Claus, but then discovered his toys hidden under a blanket in the basement 2 weeks before Christmas. He didn’t tell his parents, but he was left constantly wondering why the two people that he loved and trusted the most would willfully and knowingly deceive him. Well, actually when he became an adult, he no longer constantly wondered, instead he repeated the tradition. But the way, following the tradition of man is something that Jesus warned about, huhThank you for your sincere concern and kind offer. However, my integrity will not allow me to dismiss everything that I have discover along my journey and simply believe in something based on faith….without evidence. But it is my hope that you and other Christians continue to remain steadfast, unshakable, and unwavering in your faith….just like the tortoise (smile). (22 hrs ago | post #675)
You’re very welcomedWell, actually I find it interesting, rather than funny (smileIf I may very respectfully ask, “Why do you suppose that your faith evaporated, and do you think that religion is still full of superstitious beliefs todayYes, I totally agree that many people are committing crimes and inhumane acts in the name of God. But if I may share my honest and sincere perspective here, I most respectfully would argue that at the start of Christianity, Jesus was not considered a historical person, but rather an allegorical figure. It was not until, the 4th century (Emperor Constantine) that the concept of Jesus changed from allegorical to historical. Well, since you twisted my arm (lol), I will offer an example of how I distinguish between allegorical figures versus historical people. Okay, I am sure that you have heard the story about the Tortoise and the Hare (Aesop Fable). Now, in this fable, the hare was much faster than the tortoise. However, in the end, the tortoise won the race, right? Now, wouldn’t you agree that it is an excellent story to read to children (smile)? But did this fable historically take place or is it simply an allegory? If we view it as a historical event, then we will probably lose sight of the deeper allegorical meaning. In other words, we might become much divided over whether or not these two characters literally (historically), versus figuratively (allegorically), existed, right? You see, this fable is actually trying to teach us through an allegory (or parable) that in life, we should not be like the hare (self-centered, haughty, arrogant, overconfident, complacent, etc.) but rather like the tortoise (selfless, hardworking, caring, determine, perseverant, etc.). Now, just “what if” you were to discover that the tortoise actually represented Jesus? Likewise, “what if” you were to discover the hare actually represented the Jews? In a nutshell, “what if” you were actually a 7-year old who just discovered your toys under the blanket in the basement 2 weeks before Christmas (smile)? Would this in any way change your perspective about Jesus literally coming to mediate a new covenant? In other words, would your having a better understanding about why Jesus taught in parables (fables) in any way change way you viewed the deeper meaning of His stories? As challenging as it might be, I really hope not! more to follow..... (22 hrs ago | post #674)
What source did you quote that was older than the Codex Sinaiticus that contained Mark 16:9-20? I thought that you were referring to Chapter 25 of Harmony of the Gospel (400 AD). On the other hand, if you were referring to Iraneus, please know that this writing does not include the complete longer ending of Mark 16:9-20. And as we both know, these verses are absent in the two earliest complete copies of the Bible (Vaticanus and SinaiticusSinaitic us, Vaticanus, and Papyrus 45Of course not, since the current consensus among biblical scholars is that verses Mark 16:9-20 were not part of the original text of Mark but represent a very early addition. (smileI am not familiar with what the Muslims believed. But please know that my assertion is based on my research (smile). (Yesterday | post #100)
Do you believe the sabbath should be kept holy?
In my humble opinion, fourth commandment would be broken, since this could be done on the next day (smile). (Sunday | post #122)
Do you believe the sabbath should be kept holy?
continuedYes, I agree that Jesus spoke of faith. However, does He say (or even imply) that anyone is “justified by faith without works?” Or did Jesus explicitly say that believing in Him and keeping the commandments (both of which is works) were required for receiving eternal life? Well, let us see as follows: (1) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven (Mat 7:21)……requirement – doing the Father’s will. (2) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16)……requirement – believing in Jesus. (3) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments (Mat 19:16-17)…..requir ement – keep the commandments. (4) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works (Mat 16:27)….. requirement – rewarded according to his works (5) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (Rev 22:14)……requiremen t – blessed those who do his commadmentsWell, as long as you believe that fulfill means that we are no longer required to follow the commandment, then you will be following the Pauline doctrine, rather that the teachings of Jesus, in my humble opinion (smile). And thanks for the compliment…I hope that you like to metaphor (lol). (Sunday | post #121)
Do you believe the sabbath should be kept holy?
Yes, this is one of the passages. But here are a few others relating to Paul’s teaching: (1) Not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:9). (2) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace (Eph 2:15). (3) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified (Gal 2:16). (4) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (Rom 3:27) (5) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Rom 3:28). (6) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5) (7) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 5:1). If you pay special attention to #5 above, you will see that Paul explicitly said that people are “justified by faith without the deeds of the law,” right? In fact, in each of the above passages, Paul either rejects work or promotes faith. Thus, many Christians now believe that keeping the law of commandments is not required since (according to Paul) they were abolished (see #2 above). So, with this being fully understood, may I very respectfully ask, “Is Paul’s teachings consistent with that of Jesus’?” Well, before you answer, let us see what Jesus and His brother specifically said about faith, commandments, and work as follows: (1) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven (Mat 5:19) (2) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (James 2:24) (3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous (1 John 5:3). (4) If ye love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). By the way, did you know that according to Jesus, you are actually doing the “work” of God (rather than faith) when you believe in Jesus? Okay, I realize that was a little over the top. But please, do not take my word for it (smile). If you would be so kind, please read John 6:28-29. It reads as follows: “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” more to followl.... (Sunday | post #120)
Was Jesus Crucified and Resurrected According to Scripture?
Okay, I see that you just made a scriptural reference to Mark 15:21, which reads, “And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.” But here is a news flash for you. The word “cross” is a transliteration from the Greek word “stauros,” which actually denotes an upright pole or stake. You see, actually the cross was a pagan symbol (Babylon sun god) that was adopted by Christians in the 3rd century. Now, do you see what happens when one does his homework (smile). But here’s a quick reference that you might want to use in order to substantiate what I just said. If you will, please know that in the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273, it read, "In the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan mannerOkay, if that is what you think, I will totally respect your perspective (smileAre you serious? If so, let us look at what the New World Translation bible reveals about Mark 15:21 as follows: “Also, they impressed into service a passerby, a certain Simon of Cy•re´ne, coming from the country, the father of Alexander and Ru´fus, that he should lift up his torture stake.” (Sunday | post #131)
Do you believe the sabbath should be kept holy?
With all due respect, the meaning is not seen because you are doing so many different acrobatic interpretations of the scripture (smileWell, I trust that many Christian will soon realize that it is actually the shepherds who are leading them astray. But please do not take my word for it, just check out Jeremiah 50:6, which states, “My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplaceNo, I would never pull your leg about something like this (smileWhat passage are you referring to? After all, you cannot possible be referring to Mat 24:20, right? By the way, what do you suppose is this restingplace revealed in Jere 50:6? (Sunday | post #115)
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