gompertz

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Phil, excellent observations. It appears we have no information about the current situations of the people involved in the case. Have they moved on or are there lingering issues of a psychological or legal nature? Most likely whatever problems exist are similar to the problems we all have, problems concerning relationships and finances, and it would be difficult to determine what role the event of a year and a half ago plays in the problems of today. There remains one thing that would surely hinder any attempt to move on, and that is the persistence of the video. MSNBC still shows it periodically on their Caught on Camera feature, and snippets of it have been shown on various news reports about current cases of violence. There seems to be no expiration date for the video and one never knows when those images will suddenly appear. And so, like a repressed memory, the video lurks at the threshold of consciousness. What might be the psychological effect of this circumstance? What might a civil court do if a psychologist testified as to the possible deleterious nature of such effects? I suspect that few if any of those involved in the case read this thread any more, and they probably just wish the whole thing would be forgotten. My own interest has long since ceased to be limited to the case itself. I see it as an exemplar, an archetype, of universal patterns. In fact, to the extent that we manifest universal consciousness, we are all representatives of universal patterns, in which our individuality is not submerged, but rather, made to realize its potential. Such ideas have been expressed by German Idealism and Eastern Philosophy and gain support from modern physics. But now it may be that, thanks to the Internet, new vehicles for the expression of universal consciousness are being created, and that includes blogs and emails as well as video technologies that can be used for good or evil. There is a growing awareness of the potential of modern technology for good and evil, and the Lakeland video has contributed to the growth of this awareness, by drawing attention to the toxic environment in which so many young people live. Thus the video can be a tool for correction, if properly used. Whether the people involved like it or not, the video is always there. It can be an opportunity to merge with universal consciousness, or it can remain as a stigma if its lessons are not assimilated. BTW as a native of Germany who has made America my adopted home, I concur with your statement: God Bless America.  (Yesterday | post #10781)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Robert, in response to your last post, if you study the I Ching, you see how the simple act of flipping coins can reveal cosmic patterns that influence our lives in profound ways. Science is only beginning to reveal the truth of Walt Whitman's statement "A blade of grass is no less than the journeywork of the stars." Some have commented here recently to complain about what looks like undue attention being paid to the Lakeland case and said that doing so suggests a lack of balance. After all, they point out, there are monstrous atrocities committed all the time. IMO all these events are connected, as is everything in the universe. Lakeland is a small tributary of a great river whose waters merge with the cosmic ocean. But it is important to consider how one can advance the cause of universal justice by focusing on one part. It is like the I Ching. One can reflect the universal pattern by the pattern of the coins, but then comes the need to interpret what the pattern means. So it is with Lakeland. It is a microcosm, an exemplar, of something vast, but it is not self-explanatory. It has to be interpreted and its lessons taken to heart. As for the Mongols, they destroyed the first great Russian civilization 700 years ago, and the terror of that event still reverberates in the collective memory of the Russian people. Today the descendants of those Mongols are peaceful Buddhists. How we interpret this is again a question of our skill and dedication in applying the lessons we have learned through our studies and life experiences.  (Monday Nov 23 | post #10777)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Not sure if you were being sarcastic about the Russian culture. I think Dostoevski's novel The Brothers Karamazov has valuable lessons to teach about forgiveness. The innocent brother Dmitri assumes responsibility for a crime he did not commit and accepts the verdict of twenty years hard labor in Siberia to atone for the sins of his family, and of all of humanity. I can think of worse ways to spend a few months than reading The Brothers Karamazov. It could even lead to a religious conversion for some. Not complicated at all, in fact rather simple.  (Friday Nov 20 | post #10775)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Robert, your reference to the Mongols is intriguing. The Mongol invasion of Russia was a traumatic event for the Russian people. I have always thought that the horror of that event, which extinguished the bright flame of Russian culture for hundreds of years and almost wiped out the Russian people, left its mark on the collective psyche of Russia. The trauma of that horror can still be seen in the attitudes of the Russian people today. It accounts for their embrace of Putin's autocratic tendencies. It accounts for the desperate heroism of their defiance of invaders like Napoleon and Hitler. I developed a deep respect for Russian culture in my college days, including their language, their songs and poetry, and the Russian Orthodox Church. The funny thing is, I am not Russian myself. At least not in this lifetime. But the story continues...  (Thursday Nov 19 | post #10766)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

I am always careful about making political statements on an open forum. I will restrict myself to a few oblique remarks. In the comments to the newspaper article "political correctness" as well as Leftist policies of excessive lenience toward crime were blamed, and this is a view that I generally agree with, at least in the way the English case was reported. In the Lakeland case, political correctness was not blamed, and, while the laxness of the authorities to crime was named as a factor, there was still a difference in the way this laxness was characterized. I think a predominant view was that the Lakeland violence was more the result of a "redneck " or "white trash" mentality (Anyone who disputes this need only review a sample of the comments on this thread from April and May 2008). This readiness to characterize the Lakeland violence as being conditioned by ethnic or cultural factors (e.g. much attention was given to alleged displays of Confederate flags by friends of the perps) is in sharp contrast to the lack of any mention of such factors in the English case. Indeed, political correctness would obstruct any investigation of such factors, as we see in the Ft. Hood massacre where political correctness led to an atmosphere of toleration that proved disastrous for the victims. I think justice and fairness are never served when we create distinctions of the kind we saw so clearly manifest in the extreme anger in the Lakeland case and contrast that with the readiness to forgive and forget in certain other cases, such as the outrageous miscarriage of justice in the Long Beach beating case presided over by Judge Gibson Lee, or the calls to "forgive and forget" by journalists of the Knoxville News Sentinel in the horrible torture/murder of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom-a case which is right now before the courts. Anyone who is interested can google these cases, and ask themselves why the media hardly mentioned them. In my view, whether or not we are willing to show lenience toward the perpetrators in some particular case, there is no excuse for showing lenience for the kind of double standard that has corrupted society and created disparities in treatment based on political correctness. As the evidence mounts and the PC mentality is exposed for what it is, we can only hope that society will reject such ideologically driven madness. I did promise to express myself obliquely and I think I have done that to the point of obscurity. Oh well....  (Thursday Nov 19 | post #10765)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Phil, thank you for the information. Those who know my thoughts on these matters will understand what I mean when I say this is another example of political correctness gone wild. The victim's parents forgive? Well, I don't forgive and we as a society had better stop being so forgiving. There is a time to forgive and there is a time to fight back...  (Wednesday Nov 18 | post #10760)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

If you read my comments on the Audio Terrorism thread, you see I advised using Eastern philosophy as a method of combatting disruptive forces in the Lakeland community. I explained that eastern philosophy is much more than an intellectual system, but a holistic method that includes physical self-defense (and that includes all the techniques of The Art of War). A community of martial artists trained in methods of spirituality is not out of reach, if people are determined to make it happen.  (Sunday Nov 15 | post #10752)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Yes, indeed. As for ICU's statement that we are no closer to the truth...There are many versions of "what really happened" but what is important is what happens in the future.  (Saturday Nov 14 | post #10748)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Well, since I have so much time on my hands, I might as well respond to this. I get the impression that you conflated the contributions of numerous bloggers to make some questionable generalizations. However, since you did refer to "all of you" I will assume that you are including me. If you actually read my blogs you would see that I spend very little time conjecturing about the event in question. I use the topic as a springboard for discussing many of the "horrific incidents" you allude to. Several of us who post here have provided links to incidents of violence that have just recently occurred. For over a year, many of us have discussed the escalating violence and debated the reasons and sought possible solutions, both here and on other blogs. I have expanded the search for causes to a consideration of recent research in neurophysiology. I have posted links to articles dealing with, e.g., Antonio Damasio's book, "Descartes' Error." I have referred to the work of the psychologist Mary Pipher, author of the best-selling "reviving Ophelia." Are you acquainted with these writers? Neuroscience, linguistics, psychology, philosophy, all contribute to our understanding of the social forces at work that contribute to the proliferation of violence. We might even add the contributions of Marxists and postmodernists if we are careful about using these sources. Yes, there is much work to be done in the search for solutions, and this blog plays only an infinitesimal part in that search-but it does make a contribution. Each of the bloggers here has a different approach to the problem, but I am impressed with the sincerity and openness with which discussions are conducted here-which is why I continue to blog here, rather than on the threads devoted to more specific questions of politics and religion. If you haven't already done so, check out some of these discussions and see how quickly the degenerate into name-calling and irrelevance. It is precisely the lack of anger and invective here that I find so congenial. Now, as for those writing here being men, well, golly gee, I don't know...what do you think it means?  (Saturday Nov 14 | post #10746)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Nowhere did I say that human nature changed because of Christianity. This is what I wrote: "With the coming of Christianity that kind of behavior ceased to be acceptable, and those feelings were banished from consciousness. Banished but not extinguished. The enjoyment of violence...is still part of our psychology... " So, if I assert that violence is still part of our psychology, am I not saying that human nature is still violent? When you say that people have to justify their wickedness by appealing to the Bible (or the Koran, or Marx) you are preaching to the choir . Some of our noblest aspirations seem to have their origins in attempts to justify and sanitize violence. Wars to end all wars, wars to convert people to the "true faith," wars to bring the blessings of civilization to "primitive " tribes, are indicative of man's ability to devise excuses. However, what changed was that society no longer approved of people acting like the Vikings of old, who could swing their axes and swords and murder and maim at will. New pretexts had to be invented, and mitigated forms of violence (like sports) were devised. At least this had the advantage of removing the violence from the sphere of everyday life, and projecting it into the sphere of entertainment. In America, even war became a form of entertainment, since it was projected onto a TV screen in sanitized form, with the more disturbing images of destruction and death removed by the censors. Now, it seems the younger generation has reinstated violence as a fact of life in a very direct way, thanks to the Internet and the video camera. That is what we have been opining about for over a year on this thread. The masks have come off, the violent soul has been exposed in all its harshness, and the unadorned brutality of the Viking with his destructiveness is winning approval among many of the young. What does this reveal about the future of civilization?  (Friday Nov 13 | post #10738)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

That is a reasonable question. I have spent many years studying political philosophy from Plato to Rawls and Nozick, and I have strongly held convictions about politics. Though I consider myself a conservative (even a paleoconservative) my ideas are constantly undergoing revision and I welcome the opportunity to develop my insights through discussion and debate. If you have ever seen how quickly political threads on Topix degenerate into insults and irrationality you will appreciate why I stay away from those discussions. The reason I focus on this thread is that the exchanges of views here have remained civil. Also, the subject matter does provide the opportunity for me to express a variety of views on politics and spirituality. The Lakeland beating case helps us to focus on the issue of the increase of violence among young people, and to explore possible solutions, and for me, that ties in with my interests in politics. As for David, he told us he would only post intermittently in the future, since he is busy with his studies (which overlap partially with my own interests). Amy and Phil may be back. They do have a life away from the computer and sometimes personal issues demand attention. Now, as for not leaving before the conclusion, how would we decide when the conclusion has arrived? Perhaps the story will never have a definite termination...  (Thursday Nov 12 | post #10730)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Very well said, Robert!  (Thursday Nov 12 | post #10723)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

I would think that whether one takes a deontological or consequentialist position, it would require formal training in ethical philosophy to be able to articulate these views. Without formal education, most people would be susceptible to inconsistencies in the way they make ethical judgments. For instance, those who would judge the actions of those on the tape from a deontological perspective might slide comfortably into a consequentialist position when judging their own behavior, even if that behavior is violent and destructive. I think research has established that people tend to be very lax in the way they apply ethical principles where their own actions are concerned. I suggest that we should be careful that we do not ascribe to a deontological theory behavior that is really attributable to reaction formation. (REACTION FORMATION: A DEFENSIVE PROCESS IN WHICH ANXIETY-PRODUCING OR UNACCEPTABLE EMOTIONS ARE MASTERED BY EXAGGERATION OF THE DIRECTLY OPPOSING TENDENCY-from the Wikipedia) At any rate, in evaluating the perps' ability to be rehabilitated, we might also consider virtue ethics. Had there been a trial, we might have discovered that some were ringleaders, or instigators, while others were followers. We cannot assume that those who were the most violent were the instigators. What provoked the violence of Ms Hardcastle, who did not know Victoria? At this point we can only guess. But many speculations have been offered over the past year as to what degree of guilt should be assigned to each participant, and there is no point in repeating them here. Suffice it to say that there are various criteria we might use to decide who is most worthy of help. The only one about whom we need have no doubt is Victoria. As for what kind of help could be offered, and what kind of help is acceptable to her, is another question.  (Thursday Nov 12 | post #10714)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Sorry I am taking a long time to respond. First, I have said many times that it is not apologies that matter, but what the perps do subsequently to demonstrate their sincerity. A few made tearful apologies that seemed sincere; but sincerity cannot be measured by a momentary display of emotion. I agree that they must demonstrate that the change is genuine. A few years of service of the kind you mention would be a good way to show the public and themselves that they have matured. I find it interesting that it is April Cooper, the one who seemed most incorrigible, who seems to have made the most progress in changing her image. Human beings are complex and they can surprise us, for better or worse. Sadly, Mercades seems to be going in the opposite direction. Hopefully the change of environment the judge ordered will be good for her. Yes, hopefully. Still, there will always be people who hate the 8 (I include the two males, because they were probably complicit in some way, but I wont press the point), just as there will always be those who, for whatever reason, dislike Victoria. That is the price that all involved have to pay for the fact that the tape was made public and seen by millions. MSNBC still shows parts of the video periodically, in a feature called Caught on Camera: Teens Gone Wild. For those who are deontologists, the anger can always be revived. However, my cynicism leads me to think that much of the anger has a darker source and cannot be explained by a person's ethical theory. I think that many of the people who express violent anger and advocate brutal punishments secretly enjoy what they are seeing on the tape, but they are ashamed to admit it, even to themselves. In a culture like that of the Vikings, men could boast openly about how many skulls they cracked and how many babies they impaled on their lances. With the coming of Christianity that kind of behavior ceased to be acceptable, and those feelings were banished from consciousness. Banished, but not extinguished. The enjoyment of violence, even of the sadistic kind, is still part of our psychology, and it may be that outward displays of repugnance toward the tape conceal an unacknowledged attraction for it. Depending on how prevalent such psychological states are in the general population, there may be nothing that the perps can do to rehabilitate their public image.  (Thursday Nov 12 | post #10713)

Lakeland, FL

8 teens arrested in beating of Lakeland girl

Gregs, sending money is not that big a deal. There is the Mulberry Box No. first provided by Fox News and repeated here several times that anyone can access. However, as with everything about this case, some complications have arisen with that address, but as for details, well...All I can say is that there is a lot of information to be gleaned by perusing the several hundred pages of this thread and some may find that activity as absorbing as reading a full length novel. As for Robert Stevens being a stalker, I offer no hypothesis, but only the observation that anyone who has spent so long following this case and commenting on it might be accused of being a stalker, including myself. One more thing. It might seem that plenty of people would have sent money to Victoria, especially in the months immediately following the "incident " when public interest was still focused on it. Did people in fact send donations? No clear answer. But keep in mind that most of the people who expressed support for Victoria by writing to newspapers and blogs confined their "support " to making angry comments about the perpetrators. That kind of support tends to evaporate when Nancy Grace finds a new topic to rant about, and then the fickle crowd moves on.  (Sunday Nov 8 | post #10690)