Immigration Debate - Bay City, MI

The law says the police can ask for your ID if they think you're "illegal". The whole premise is absurd. You can not tell by looking at someone if they are illegal. You can not tell by listening to them. There is NOTHING short of the person accidentally letting it slip that they hopped the border that is legitimate probable cause that a person would be an illegal immigrant.

So this law is either completely useless, that's if the courts actually hold police to the probable cause standard OR the police will be allowed to use things like skin color, accent, name as evidence someone is illegal. Courts tend to be biased towards the police in cases like that unless the suspect is considered someone "important". They might even accept things like "he seemed nervous so I thought maybe it was because he was an illegal immigrant" which with experiences with police profiling and with this new law on the books any person of color might be nervous.

This is going to turn America into a police state. And were already part way there. The feds stopped a commercial truck 200 miles within the border and arrested an American citizen until his wife could get them his birth certificate. He had has driver's license and even his commercial license but they didn't accept that. The police could do the same thing with this law.

The ignorance of some people is infuriating. I saw someone say that because he came from "Fresno" it was "reasonable" not to accept the license because they dont check legal status there and then said that his accent was enough reason for suspicion. The idiocy of some people. Accent does not prove or disprove whether you are here legally or not. There are plenty of legal immigrants and American citizens with accents and there are illegals from countries besides Mexico. If this is what passes for "probable cause" "probable cause" is worthless as a protection against this law.

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The law states that IF a person is stopped for some other reason it is at that time he is allowed to ask for verification of citizenship. THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO STOP ANYONE WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE! They cannot simply stop you and say "Hey, shoe me your citizenship status". I just moved back up here after living in AZ for the past 14 yrs. My place was half a mile from the border. I got the hell out of Dodge because the border violence is out of control. What you see on the news or read about is NOTHING compared to what is really going on out there! How can any sane American NOT want secure borders? Do whatever is necessary. I would not mind one bit if I were stopped on a daily basis and asked for my I.D. I am a citizen of the US and proud of that fact. I have nothing to hide, proud of my heritage, race, culture, etc. Call it what you will but our borders are as unsecured as it can get. Osama bin laden could walk across that border with bombs strapped to his body without a problem! I have watched as drug smugglers carried their goods across that open border and it was chilling! The ONLY drawback to Gov Brewer's law is that it is WAY overdue. It is inexcusable that the Feds have turned a blind eye to the border issue. I would still be in my lovely AZ home. It is no longer safe. And, IF you think the border problems do not effect you up here you are a fool. America had better tighten up their borders before it is too late.....if not already!

waterjet wrote:

The law states that IF a person is stopped for some other reason it is at that time he is allowed to ask for verification of citizenship. THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO STOP ANYONE WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE! They cannot simply stop you and say "Hey, shoe me your citizenship status".

You completely missed the point. Being pulled over for probable cause of a crime is not evidence of being an illegal immigrant or even a noncitizen.

If an American citizen is jaywalking and the cop stops them and decides he thinks the American citizen might be an illegal immigrant and they were just out for a jog without any identification should that person be arrested? This law opens the door to the possibility of American citizens being detained on suspicion of being "illegal immigrants". Citizens might even be tossed across the border 'accidentally'. The federal government has already done that once.

We are asked for I.D. on a daily basis.....writing a check, paying with a charge card, applying for a job, a loan from a bank wants all but fingerprints! I know first hand how bad the borders are. I would not mind one bit being stopped every day and asked for ID. Nothing is perfect but her law is a step in the right direction. I am so fed up with hearing about these so called "civil rights" that illegals have. They have NONE! Something needs desperately to be done.

waterjet wrote:

We are asked for I.D. on a daily basis.....writing a check, paying with a charge card, applying for a job, a loan from a bank wants all but fingerprints! I know first hand how bad the borders are. I would not mind one bit being stopped every day and asked for ID. Nothing is perfect but her law is a step in the right direction. I am so fed up with hearing about these so called "civil rights" that illegals have. They have NONE! Something needs desperately to be done.

The law takes civil rights away from American citizens.

We are asked for ID when we have to do things that we know beforehand require an ID. It should not require an ID just to go for a walk.

And some states dont allow driver's license places to check if you are here legally so they might not even accept your driver's license. American citizens should not have to carry their birth certificate with them everywhere.

And why is it desperate? Even with the most exaggerated claims about the harms of illegal immigration there are still many things that more harmful like outsourcing(how is sending them across the border going to give anyone their jobs back when the factories will just go with them). I don't see any huge protests against outsourcing. Why all the fuss over immigration but no one cares about jobs going to China? And then there's the deficit most of that is borrowed from China and these expensive, long wars that China is profiting off of nicely (companies based on China are raking in more from oil profits than American companies).

Everyone is worried about Mexicans coming over here and looking for work while the multinationals and the Chinese Communist Party collaborate to buy Washington and impose their demands on us to further their increasingly meshed together interests. And because of this whole immigration debacle we'll probably get another Republican and he'll make the CCP and the corporations even happier. Not that it matters whose in power. Obama and the Democrats are corporate handpuppets just like the Republicans.

I'm not "comparing" which is more harmful. If you are in this country illegally you need to go! You broke the law to get here. What makes them special that they should be given a free pass? You break our laws you are a criminal. That is that! Az law is about freedom and following the law. It is not about race. I am sick of people playing the stinking race card. And, it is not just Mexicans that come across that border. What is coming across that border, ILLEGALLY, should scare people.
As for China? That is an altogether a separate ugly situation.

waterjet wrote:

I'm not "comparing" which is more harmful. If you are in this country illegally you need to go! You broke the law to get here. What makes them special that they should be given a free pass? You break our laws you are a criminal. That is that! Az law is about freedom and following the law. It is not about race. I am sick of people playing the stinking race card. And, it is not just Mexicans that come across that border. What is coming across that border, ILLEGALLY, should scare people.
As for China? That is an altogether a separate ugly situation.

The AZ laws applies even to American citizens. If you don't have your ID and you're a CITIZEN you go to jail. No CITIZEN should be put in jail just because they decided to go for a walk and didn't bring their birth certificate.

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/a...

Here is a link to the law....it is merely enforcing the current unenforced Federal Law. One can ONLY be stopped IF there is a violation. Nobody is going to be stopped for taking a "walk" unless they rob someone at gunpoint, assault someone, trespass, etc. Officers are not allowed to just randomly go up to someone and accuse them of being an illegal. No law is perfect. There have been people sentenced to prison later to be found innocent for crimes they did not commit. National security should be a priority of every American. It is a matter of safety for our country and it's citizens. Our borders should have been made secure long before 9/11. Certainly after 9/11 yet here we are. The people of AZ are overrun with home invasions, drug smuggling, kidnappings, financially strapped hospitals, assaults, and more because the Federal Government refuses to enforce its own laws! Enough is enough. It is time to take action.

waterjet wrote:

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip .townnews.com/azstarnet.com/co ntent/tncms/assets/editorial/6 /47/206/64720634-4e56-11df-987 6-001cc4c03286.pdf.pdf?_dc=127 2472755
Here is a link to the law....it is merely enforcing the current unenforced Federal Law. One can ONLY be stopped IF there is a violation. Nobody is going to be stopped for taking a "walk" unless they rob someone at gunpoint, assault someone, trespass, etc.

OR loitering, noise violation, jaywalking, speeding, rolling stops.

No law is perfect. There have been people sentenced to prison later to be found innocent for crimes they did not commit.

American citizens should not be inconvenienced in order to stop illegal immigration.

National security should be a priority of every American.

LIBERTY should be a priority of every American.

"Give me liberty or give me death."-Patrick Henry

It is a matter of safety for our country and it's citizens.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Our borders should have been made secure long before 9/11.

They would've been secure if Bush would've followed up on that CIA report "Osama bin Laden Determined to Strike In The United States". Laws do no good when the people in charge are incompetent, but what happens when politicians are incompetent? They use the crisis that arises from their own incompetence to ask for more power and the people are too blinded by the media to notice.

It's not like the Arizona law is going to "Secure" our borders at all anyways. If an illegal immigrant gets caught, they spend a few days, maybe a week in detention and then are tossed back into Mexico, back to square one and then they just hop the border and try again. Its a useless law that does nothing but erode the civil liberties of American citizens, encourage racial profiling, and will lead to a lowered burden of proof.

The people of AZ are overrun with home invasions, drug smuggling, kidnappings, financially strapped hospitals, assaults, and more because the Federal Government refuses to enforce its own laws! Enough is enough. It is time to take action.

All of these crimes are more commonly committed by either American citizens, transient illegals(esp. with smuggling they are often coming and going and do not plan on making permanent residence), or legals(even more common since these highly organized cartels usually have the means to find people who can come in legally while avoiding detection).

And the hospitals, you're seriously upset that emergency rooms have to treat everybody? Think about a sick kid who was brought in by his illegal immigrant parents who will die without medical treatment. Do you think he deserves to die? You have no heart.

The women cross that border for FREE delivery and citizenship for their babies. I should not have to pay for that and they should not be given citizenship because their mom came here ILLEGALLY! You think that is heartless, so be it. If you enter this country ILLEGALLY you ARE a criminal! That is that. Those borders have been open and unsecured long before Bush. I can play the blame game with every Pres out there. What good does it do? Obummer is certainly no winner. When there was the swine flu outbreak he would not close the border. His comment was "The horse is already out of the barn", What an idiot. In our border town the Mexicans flooded the stores and you could not get hand sanitizer, masks, even the superscription flu medication was completely gone leaving nothing for American people. We have horses and "if" that barn door is open and some get out you still close the damn thing to stop others from following. The Feds lack respect for the American people. NOBODY American or not deserves a free pass. Get out and contribute to society. I'm fed up with the "all about me" attitude.

waterjet wrote:

The women cross that border for FREE delivery and citizenship for their babies.

They cross solely so they can have citizenbabies? I wouldn't doubt that some people do that, but you could do that as a visitor rather than an illegal immigrant if you knew you were about to deliver and that would be a lot easier visiting than coming in illegally.

I should not have to pay for that and they should not be given citizenship because their mom came here ILLEGALLY!

The logical consequence of that is there would be some people here whose families have been here for generations but aren't citizens. Even though they were born here and spent their whole lives here, and do you think Mexico will accept them as citizens? At some point they wouldn't. The consequence of that policy is to create people who have no nationality through no fault of their own and wind up locked up for life because no country will take them.

If you enter this country ILLEGALLY you ARE a criminal!

If you do something against the law you are a criminal. Why so much passion and anger against illegal immigrants but no similar outrage against jaywalkers, speeders, or even drunk drivers? People don't even get this worked up about trying to stop murderers!

That is that. Those borders have been open and unsecured long before Bush. I can play the blame game with every Pres out there. What good does it do? Obummer is certainly no winner.

There has never been a good president.

When there was the swine flu outbreak he would not close the border. His comment was "The horse is already out of the barn", What an idiot. In our border town the Mexicans flooded the stores and you could not get hand sanitizer, masks, even the superscription flu medication was completely gone leaving nothing for American people. We have horses and "if" that barn door is open and some get out you still close the damn thing to stop others from following.

Swine Flu was greatly hyped. The vast majority of people who caught the swine flu survived. I knew somebody who caught the swine flu. He got through it fine. The hype was a nice fear-mongering story for the media, just like most rhetoric about illegal immigration.

The Feds lack respect for the American people.

Obviously.

NOBODY American or not deserves a free pass. Get out and contribute to society.

I agree. The bankers, people who live off of inheritance, people who run corporations kept afloat by corporate welfare, and people gaining disproportionately to their work because they use their power and position of authority in their business to decide salaries and benefits to be more than they deserve are a drain on our society.

And so are the politicians who use the bulk of government power to help these people maintain their undue power and influence.

I'm fed up with the "all about me" attitude.

You mean like the attitude of BP or the bankers? Or the attitude of Halliburton or Blackwater? What about the attitude of Americans who shout at a man with Parkinsons that they're not giving him "handouts"?

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/te...

You really think parents who want a better life for their children are taking an "all about me attitude". Yes, maybe they should've thought about whether having children at all in that environment was the best choice, but people make mistakes. What would a good parent do? Decide that since they made that mistake they should just sit there and risk their child's safety in a violent, impoverished environment?

Right or wrong it takes a lot of effort to make it across the border, a lot of trecking through hot, scorching deserts, and when they get here there is a lot of hardship but they do it anyways for their family's sake.

It takes a lot of effort to murder, rob and rape also but, it does not make it right. Most of what is coming across that border is NOT kind people looking for a better way of life. Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the U.S. due to the drug cartel activity from Mexico. The rancher in Douglas that was murdered is thought to be in retaliation for turning in marijuana found on his property and turned into Border Patrol. You don't have a clue what goes on near that border. The media has reported very little of the reality of the horrors that have escalated over the last couple of years. And, with all the media attention on our unsecured border what a great time for terrorists to "walk" right in. You may choose to support open borders. I have not, do not and never will.

waterjet wrote:

It takes a lot of effort to murder, rob and rape also but, it does not make it right.

That wasn't the point. The point is that it is mostly for their family's good and it takes a lot of effort but they do it anyways.

Most of what is coming across that border is NOT kind people looking for a better way of life. Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the U.S. due to the drug cartel activity from Mexico.

Claiming that most come here for the purpose of committing violent crime or drug trafficking is absurd. There are millions of illegal immigrants. If MOST were the way you described our society would've collapsed by now.
Besides that most violent crime is a result of the profit motive on the black market. Even if it was feasible to stop every single illegal immigrant from getting into this country these crimes would still happen because criminal organizations would find recruits elsewhere(As they already do most of the time since American citizens (especially white American citizens) aren't seen as being as suspicious). For every illegal immigrant who gets involved in crime there are millions more who try to make an "honest living"(other than that they are here illegally). They know they're not welcomed here and so they try to avoid too much attention.
If we want to get serious about ending the drug war, we will legalize drugs. Budweiser and Miller don't do kidnappings, don't murder each other, and don't foster gang activity. Why? Because as long as they don't and as long as they obey the regulations and take their disputes to court instead of the street the government lets them do business. Drug cartels are breaking the law just by trafficking in drugs and penalties are often stiffer than murder so they have no incentive to obey other laws.

And, with all the media attention on our unsecured border what a great time for terrorists to "walk" right in. You may choose to support open borders. I have not, do not and never will.

You're changing the subject. This isn't about "open borders" v. "closed borders". This is about a law that requires everyone (American citizens included) to "show their papers". How are these things related? Arizona's law is not going to do anything as far as securing the border. The same routes and methods to cross the border in the first place will be used as before and won't be any less effective than they have been. A law actually putting more enforcement at the border might have some impact, but a law that focuses enforcement away from the border will do NOTHING. Illegal immigrants who get caught will just cross again after they're deported. Even if this does lead to more illegal immigrants getting caught drug cartels and other criminal organizations will just decide not to ever hire illegal immigrants for "jobs" in American, they will turn to the desperate American citizens and there are plenty Americans desperate enough for cash who will do it. If you don't believe that you got your head in the sand, look at the economy.
In the end the only effect of this law is to turn Arizona into a police state. Citizens should not have to "show our papers" in this country. The fact that it can only be used if you're already stopped for something else means nothing. There are millions of statutes, including many infractions and misdemeanors people unknowingly break. "Reasonable suspicion" standards like in this law will not protect innocent Americans from being asked for their birth certificate. "Reasonable suspicion" has a history of being interpreted to justify anything. The police officer can have a reason and no matter how ridiculously unreasonable it is the courts uphold it.
If the law said "probable cause" we wouldn't have to worry. In fact that wouldn't change anything, because the police already had the authority to check immigration status if they have "probable cause" of it. Probable cause is what is in our constitution. It does NOT say "reasonable suspicion", it says "probable cause". Arizona's law is unconstitutional. The sooner SCOTUS sets that straight the better.

I was very pleased with the whole circus routine! I'm gonna use this service the next time I get married!

waterjet wrote:

We are asked for I.D. on a daily basis.....writing a check, paying with a charge card, applying for a job, a loan from a bank wants all but fingerprints! I know first hand how bad the borders are. I would not mind one bit being stopped every day and asked for ID. Nothing is perfect but her law is a step in the right direction. I am so fed up with hearing about these so called "civil rights" that illegals have. They have NONE! Something needs desperately to be done.

I totally agree!

I support 1070. I support what Brewer is attempting to do. She has the gonads the Feds are lacking. You think what you want. I will know what I know. Border Patrol should just shoot anything that attempts to cross that border anywhere that is not a legal port of entry. End of problem!

waterjet wrote:

I support 1070. I support what Brewer is attempting to do. She has the gonads the Feds are lacking. You think what you want. I will know what I know. Border Patrol should just shoot anything that attempts to cross that border anywhere that is not a legal port of entry. End of problem!

Brewer is posturing to score easy votes.

The law will do nothing to stop illegal immigration.

Live by the 3 S's. AZ ranchers should abide by this. There is no help out there. Too many bleeding hearts.