Gun Laws Debate - Granite City, IL

We need legal conceal carry!

We need conceal carry everywhere!

Yes! NRA and IRA working to fight for Illinois. Join Illinois carry its free and lots of good information. www.illinoiscarry.com/

Statistics show communities are safer where concealed carry is allowed.

We NEED concealed carry. The statistics speaks volumes.

Enforce the laws on the books.

Ask Switzerland. They are required by law to own a gun, and have the least amount of violent crime on the planet. The stats speak so much volume, that its really a lame argument to even engage in, other than to counter act the lies that are put out to dis inform people who either dont know, and or dont care about the truth of the matter..... The anti gun people just have nothing to support their claims. Ask Great Brittan. lol

I pose this to those who call for conceal and carry. What happens when every state has conceal and carry? How many more Travon Martins do we have to have? Your walking to your car on a parkinglot somewhere. The woman ahead of you and parked next to you for whatever reason percieves you as a threat and shoots you and kills you. How justified is that? Who is around to say she panicked because someone was behind her and killed an innocent man? What is the real cost of an armed society. What if a child is in the area and is killed because someone is a lousy shot? It isnt simply a case of arming everyone. There is much more to consider.

grapevine23 wrote:

I pose this to those who call for conceal and carry. What happens when every state has conceal and carry? How many more Travon Martins do we have to have? Your walking to your car on a parkinglot somewhere. The woman ahead of you and parked next to you for whatever reason percieves you as a threat and shoots you and kills you. How justified is that? Who is around to say she panicked because someone was behind her and killed an innocent man? What is the real cost of an armed society. What if a child is in the area and is killed because someone is a lousy shot? It isnt simply a case of arming everyone. There is much more to consider.

Yes it is about arming everyone, it is a deterrent just like enhanced sentencing.
You can not kill or shoot another unless your life is in danger, otherwise it would be manslaughter.

Voluntarist....research some of the "stand your ground" cases in Florida. Two of the most recent MAY not be cases of someones life being in danger. Its a very precarious line to walk. Look closely at the Travon Martin case. Only one person to say what happened, but did it really happen that way? I agree that we have the right to defend ourselves and our families. However where do we draw the line? Are we really safer with conceal and carry laws? Will it really deter the criminal? Perhaps concealed isnt the key. Perhaps visability of a weapon to protect oneself is more of a deterent? If a criminal sees your armed would they be dissuaded from committing a crime? If everyone is armed, how do we tell the criminal from the law abiding citizen?

grapevine23 wrote:

Voluntarist....research some of the "stand your ground" cases in Florida. Two of the most recent MAY not be cases of someones life being in danger. Its a very precarious line to walk. Look closely at the Travon Martin case. Only one person to say what happened, but did it really happen that way? I agree that we have the right to defend ourselves and our families. However where do we draw the line? Are we really safer with conceal and carry laws? Will it really deter the criminal? Perhaps concealed isnt the key. Perhaps visability of a weapon to protect oneself is more of a deterent? If a criminal sees your armed would they be dissuaded from committing a crime? If everyone is armed, how do we tell the criminal from the law abiding citizen?

All you need to do is look at the statistics of disarmed cities verse armed society.
New Hampshire has open carry, how is the crime rate there.
BTW I would be more afraid of a police officer murdering me than Joe schmo open carrying.

grapevine23 wrote:

I pose this to those who call for conceal and carry. What happens when every state has conceal and carry? How many more Travon Martins do we have to have? Your walking to your car on a parkinglot somewhere. The woman ahead of you and parked next to you for whatever reason percieves you as a threat and shoots you and kills you. How justified is that? Who is around to say she panicked because someone was behind her and killed an innocent man? What is the real cost of an armed society. What if a child is in the area and is killed because someone is a lousy shot? It isnt simply a case of arming everyone. There is much more to consider.

Travon Martin is not the typical profile of someone who exercises their right to carry. There are exceptions to every rule. We do not live in a perfect world. None of the laws will ever prevent all violent crimes. There are many,many Travon Martins in this world. I live in Missouri and am thankful for our CCW laws. I am your typical person who carries a gun. I am a wife and a mother and I am protected.

grapevine23 wrote:

I pose this to those who call for conceal and carry. What happens when every state has conceal and carry? How many more Travon Martins do we have to have?

Without it, how many more Columbines, Omaha Mall, Virgina Tech, Aurora Co., etc.?

grapevine23 wrote:

Your walking to your car on a parkinglot somewhere. The woman ahead of you and parked next to you for whatever reason percieves you as a threat and shoots you and kills you.

Nice scenario. As a concealed carry permit holder she has been taught what constitutes a threat.

grapevine23 wrote:

How justified is that? Who is around to say she panicked because someone was behind her and killed an innocent man? What is the real cost of an armed society.

Considerably less than an unarmed society at the whim of criminals.

grapevine23 wrote:

What if a child is in the area and is killed because someone is a lousy shot?

Do you mean like a drive-by? Are those shooters in drive-bys conceled carry permit holders?

grapevine23 wrote:

It isnt simply a case of arming everyone. There is much more to consider.

Who said anything about arming everyone? Sounds like a straw man argument.

grapevine23 wrote:

Voluntarist....research some of the "stand your ground" cases in Florida. Two of the most recent MAY not be cases of someones life being in danger.
[/QUOTE}
Okay, but how many others are.
Do a little research into the matter of how few laws concealed carry permit holders commit compared to general society.
[QUOTE who="grapevine23"]It s a very precarious line to walk. Look closely at the Travon Martin case. Only one person to say what happened, but did it really happen that way?

That's for a court of law to decide. That has nothing to do with the validity of Stand Your Ground Laws.

grapevine23 wrote:

I agree that we have the right to defend ourselves and our families. However where do we draw the line?
Are we really safer with conceal and carry laws?

Are we not ???

grapevine23 wrote:

Will it really deter the criminal? Perhaps concealed isnt the key. Perhaps visability of a weapon to protect oneself is more of a deterent?

As in Open Carry? Some states allow for that but the Gun Control crowd doesn't. As usual.

grapevine23 wrote:

If a criminal sees your armed would they be dissuaded from committing a crime? If everyone is armed, how do we tell the criminal from the law abiding citizen?

Who said anything about everyone armed?

grapevine23 wrote:

I pose this to those who call for conceal and carry. What happens when every state has conceal and carry? How many more Travon Martins do we have to have? Your walking to your car on a parkinglot somewhere. The woman ahead of you and parked next to you for whatever reason percieves you as a threat and shoots you and kills you. How justified is that? Who is around to say she panicked because someone was behind her and killed an innocent man? What is the real cost of an armed society. What if a child is in the area and is killed because someone is a lousy shot? It isnt simply a case of arming everyone. There is much more to consider.

Well there are only a couple states in the entire country that dont allow concealed carry at the moment, and we currently have a tiny problem with criminals shooting people with guns in robberies, car jacking, for fun, etc who do not have a permit, and could never get one if their life depended on it. Sally homemaker accidentally shooting someone doesn't seem to be an epidemic just yet lol......no more than her shooting her pepper spray at anyone who looks at her funny. Concealed carry has been around for quite some time in most of the country now, and its been a SMASHING success! People who obey the law are so much less of a threat to you than the tens of thousands of thugs who slaughter people on a daily basis! That's the whole point! Why worry about a bee, when you in a jungle full of lions?

Bottom line is criminals will get the guns, further regulating against gun ownership is a death sentence to law abidingg citizens.n Ther is current talk in news about bringing back the 1994-2004 assault Rifle ban. Here are the stat on mass killings before/during and after the ban

-1966-1994 6 mass shooting
-1994-2004 6 mass shooting
-2004-present 8 mass shootings

-The stats above reflect various fireamrs used, not exclusively the so called assault Rifel.

-The true assault Rifel is a Fully Automatic weapon, such as machine gun/ouzi

-Before the ban the govmt RE-Defined the assault to be the following

-the federal law includes "any semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following and then lists five features or sets of features:

a folding or telescoping stock;
a pistol grip that protrudes "conspicuously" beneath the action of the weapon (whatever that means);
a bayonet mount;
a flash suppressor or a threaded barrel "designed to accommodate a flash suppressor";
A breaded launcher

BTW any legal gun or rifle sold today can be made into what the govmt now terms assault weapon.

We Ned to pay very close attention to the regulations put in place. This redefinition In 1994 could possibly be a stepping stone to regulating against all guns.

Continued

- The stats also show that for overall killing street crime and mass shootings the preferred weapon for thugs is the Semi Auto Pistol. The kind I carry with my CCW

Very few killings are done with the so called assault Rifel .

Example: Colorado killings were done with a 12g shotgun and two semi auto pistols.
He had an AR15 but it malfunctioned.

2d Amendment plus
FREE Individuals are responsible for their own safety

Agreed , our gov provides the safety of the police. Who with no disrespect will get ther after the fact. Our Constitutions provides us with the freedom to own weapons to aid in our defense. I find it outrageous that Illinois does not allow you to carry on person. Your weapon is no use for self defense sitting on your dresser while you are at Walmart. Sorry for the rant. But I am fortunate to love in Mo and want to see everyone have the right to carry.

Switzerland? You are going to try and peg any difference between Switzerland and the US on just one factor?

Correlation is not the same as causation.