Gun Control Debate - Bellefontaine, OH

Gun deaths:
Australia: 15
Germany: 80
United States: 34,000

If we are in Walmart together Bob and some wackjob opens fire on people and I pull my Glock Model 17 9mm and waste his sorry ass and save you, you will thank me.

need some

Boob, thass all lies of the left wing Nazis that has takun over are cuntry. Go to NRA for (4) the truth.

b_town_bob wrote:

Gun deaths:
Australia: 15
Germany: 80
United States: 34,000

Over the past 15 years, there have been 10,150 firearms deaths in Australia, 80% have been suicide, 15% homicide and 5% accidents.
http://www.aic.gov.au/media/1997/june/970602....

Population:
Australia 22,308,800
United States 307,721,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_%E2%80...

FABLE: A gun in the home makes the home less safe.

Firearms are used three to five times more often to stop crimes than to commit them,1 and accidents with firearms are at an all-time recorded low.2 In spite of this, anti-firearm activists insist that the very act of keeping a firearm in the home puts family members at risk, often claiming that a gun in the home is "43 times" more likely to be used to kill a family member than an intruder, based upon a study by anti-gun researchers of firearm-related deaths in homes in King County (Seattle), Washington.3 Although Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay originally warned that their study was of a single non-representative county and noted that they failed to consider protective uses of firearms that did not result in criminals being killed, anti-gun groups and activists use the "43 times" claim without explaining the limitations of the study or how the ratio was derived.

To produce the misleading ratio from the study, the only defensive or protective uses of firearms that were counted were those in which criminals were killed by would-be crime victims. This is the most serious of the study's flaws, since fatal shootings of criminals occur in only a fraction of 1% of protective firearm uses nationwide.4 Survey research by award-winning Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck, has shown that firearms are used for protection as many as 2.5 million times annually.5

It should come as no surprise that Kleck's findings are reflexively dismissed by "gun control" groups, but a leading anti-gun criminologist was honest enough to acknowledge their validity. "I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country," wrote the late Marvin E. Wolfgang. "I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police.... What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator.... I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology."6

While the "43 times" claim is commonly used to suggest that murders and accidents are likely to occur with guns kept at home, suicides accounted for 37 of every 43 firearm-related deaths in the King County study. Nationwide, 58% of firearm-related deaths are suicides,7 a problem which is not solved by gun laws aimed at denying firearms to criminals. "Gun control" advocates would have the public believe that armed citizens often accidentally kill family members, mistaking them for criminals. But such incidents constitute less than 2% of fatal firearms accidents, or about one for every 90,000 defensive gun uses.8

In spite of the demonstrated flaws in his research, Kellermann continued to promote the idea that a gun is inherently dangerous to own. In 1993, he and a number of colleagues presented a study that claimed to show that a home with a gun was much more likely to experience a homicide.9

This study, too, was seriously flawed. Kellermann studied only homes where homicides had taken place--ignoring the millions of homes with firearms where no harm is done--and used a control group unrepresentative of American households. By looking only at homes where homicides had occurred and failing to control for more pertinent variables, such as prior criminal record or histories of violence, Kellermann et al. skewed the results of this study. After reviewing the study, Prof. Kleck noted that Kellermann's methodology is analogous to proving that since diabetics are much more likely to possess insulin than non-diabetics, possession of insulin is a risk factor for diabetes. Even Dr. Kellermann admitted, "It is possible that reverse causation accounted for some of the association we observed between gun ownership and homicide." Northwestern University Law Professor Daniel D. Polsby went further, writing, "Indeed the point is stronger than that:'reverse causation' may account for most of the association between gun ownership and homicide. Kellermann's data simply do not allow one to draw any conclusion.
http://www.nraila.org/media/misc/fables.htm#F... I:

Yous gotta be chittin us!

The failed UK Gun Ban of 1997
How has that UK gun ban been working?
In the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled.
Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York.
England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's.
53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police.
In a [2002] United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1950...

Knife Crimes in the UK on the rise.
http://www.knifecrimes.org/uk-knife-crime-vic...

b_town_bob wrote:

Gun deaths:
Australia: 15
Germany: 80
United States: 34,000

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Cut n Paste wrote:

...Firearms are used three to five times more often to stop crimes than to commit them...

That is simply NOT TRUE! The "information" you cut and pasted came from the NRA... Do I even need to bother explaining how discredited they are??? Former president Bush (the one who is NOT retarded) and Colin Powell refused their lifetime memberships in the NRA because the NRA has become such an extremist political organization. An organization whose only contribution is literally human deaths.

Every day in America just under 100 people are killed by gun violence. More than half of those are suicides -- Right there discredits your ridiculous statement "Firearms are used 3 to 5 times more often to stop crimes than to commit [crime]" -- An average of ONE person is shot accidentally each day; an average of ONE person is shot justifiably each day; the rest are homicides. http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10...

The fact is: When you bring a gun into your home the only thing you do is dramatically increase the chance there will be a murder or a suicide using that gun! The odds of using it for protection are astronomically low -- like the difference between having a losing lottery ticket or a winning lottery ticket.

Having said that... I can't even come to this forum and convince some of you stubborn people that voting for GW Bush was a mistake even after we've all seen him screw everything up... so my chances of getting you to see the light on this subject are minimal, unfortunately, until it's too late...

b_town_bob wrote:

<quoted text>
That is simply NOT TRUE! The "information" you cut and pasted came from the NRA... Do I even need to bother explaining how discredited they are??? Former president Bush (the one who is NOT retarded) and Colin Powell refused their lifetime memberships in the NRA because the NRA has become such an extremist political organization. An organization whose only contribution is literally human deaths.
Every day in America just under 100 people are killed by gun violence. More than half of those are suicides -- Right there discredits your ridiculous statement "Firearms are used 3 to 5 times more often to stop crimes than to commit [crime]" -- An average of ONE person is shot accidentally each day; an average of ONE person is shot justifiably each day; the rest are homicides. http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10...
The fact is: When you bring a gun into your home the only thing you do is dramatically increase the chance there will be a murder or a suicide using that gun! The odds of using it for protection are astronomically low -- like the difference between having a losing lottery ticket or a winning lottery ticket.
Having said that... I can't even come to this forum and convince some of you stubborn people that voting for GW Bush was a mistake even after we've all seen him screw everything up... so my chances of getting you to see the light on this subject are minimal, unfortunately, until it's too late...

I will ask you once again Bob. When we are in the same establishment here in Bellefontaine and some psycho opens fire on innocent people and I shoot his sorry ass will you be happy I had my gun with me or not? Please answer me Bob, you never have on any thread, I think my posts just must be ROCK SOLID.

Wite_Out wrote:

<quoted text> I will ask you once again Bob. When we are in the same establishment here in Bellefontaine and some psycho opens fire on innocent people and I shoot his sorry ass will you be happy I had my gun with me or not? Please answer me Bob, you never have on any thread, I think my posts just must be ROCK SOLID.

Bob will be too embarrassed by the pile of poop he is sitting on to thank you.

i have second adm. rights

Wite_Out wrote:

<quoted text> I will ask you once again Bob. When we are in the same establishment here in Bellefontaine and some psycho opens fire on innocent people and I shoot his sorry ass will you be happy I had my gun with me or not? Please answer me Bob, you never have on any thread, I think my posts just must be ROCK SOLID.

It's not a reasonable question... you have a greater chance of being struck by lightning while holding a winning lottery ticket than being in a business in which a gunman opens fire...

b_town_bob wrote:

<quoted text>
It's not a reasonable question... you have a greater chance of being struck by lightning while holding a winning lottery ticket than being in a business in which a gunman opens fire...

B-town-dipstick... watch channel 7 news tonight. I guarantee you the number of people robbed at gun point will be 100% more than the number of people who won the lottery in Dayton.

They should've had a gun.

Hazel wrote:

They should've had a gun.

I agree

b_town_bob wrote:

<quoted text>
That is simply NOT TRUE! The "information" you cut and pasted came from the NRA... Do I even need to bother explaining how discredited they are???...

the nra compiles data taken from other sources, such as the stories about self defense use of firearms. these stories are taken from news stories and other sources. saying that because they were cut and pasted from the nra archives makes them not credible is asinine.

read the by lines:

The Hartford Courant, Hartford, CT, 11/18/05
State: ct
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2006
After an armed burglar stole $100 from his home, Angel Benitez took a self-defense class and obtained a concealed-carry permit. "This year, I'm going to prepare myself," Benitez recalled saying to himself. And, according to police, he did just that when he heard the screams of his friend, Carmen Ramos. Benitez found a man pointing a gun at Ramos. "When I saw the gun, I fired," said Benitez. "He could have killed my friend." Ramos' daughter, who was watching television, thought her mother had been shot, but then saw the burglar stumble out the door. "He was yelling 'Ow, ow!'" she recalled. A man with a gunshot wound later arrived at the hospital, but police were still investigating whether he was the intruder.


Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, Milwaukee, WI, 04/07/05
State: WI
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2005
A 64-year-old traveler from Arkansas stopped to ask directions at a Milwaukee gas station and soon found himself confronted by a gang of young men. A fight started, during which one attacker choked the motorist while a second beat the man with his own cane. Acting in self-defense, according to the police report, V.O. Goins then pulled a handgun from under the seat and shot and killed the 20-year-old thug who had been choking him. Officers responding to the scene found Goins' car keys on a juvenile accomplice. A Milwaukee assistant district attorney said Goins would not be charged.


Daily News Express, Monroe County, TN, 12/12/04
State: TN
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2005
William Tyler had lived alone for many years in his small house at the end of Knob Road in Monroe County, Tenn., and this was not the first time his home had been burglarized. But one night, the phone lines were cut and the shadowy figure outside his house was undeterred by Tyler's warning. Tyler had no choice but to wait up all night with his gun in hand. At day-light, he made his way to a local grocer to call a friend, who agreed to meet him back at Tyler's house. Upon returning to his house alone, Tyler found a hatchet-wielding intruder in his home, who began to attack. Tyler endured several blows to the head before he was able to escape, retrieve his gun and fire a shot. Despite this, the intruder kept coming, and it was only then that Tyler shot him. The intruder died at the scene. "It appears to have all the ingredients of a self-defense case," said Det. Sgt. Mike Morgan.


Charlotte News and Observer, Charlotte, N.C., 12/3/04
State: NC
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2004
After five assaults in six months by her ex-husband, Joy Burgess got a protective order. However, the order did not help when her ex-husband knocked down her back door with a shovel one evening. Burgess retrieved a handgun a relative had given her, and fired at her assailant, killing him. The sheriff's office and the district attorney will not charge Burgess in the shooting. "There's such strong evidence of self-defense," said Anson County Sheriff Tommy Allen.