Gay Marriage Debate - Wichita, KS

Amen Oh Brother

I really don't think ( at this point ) Americans are in the mood to change the legal definition of marriage inorder accomidate what God says in his word to what is described as:
an abomination .. unnatural .. degrading passions .. sexual immorality and perversion .. against natural law .. indecent acts .... nope !!... just not really in the mood
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http://carm.org/christianity-and-homosexualit... dadman

homosexuality is an aggressive movement that will not leave Christians, and society, alone. It is a movement that is intruding into the media, schools, religious institutions, society, and politics that has resulted in great division, debate, and anger. Of course, homosexuals are not the only ones guilty of this. Fault lies with everyone. But, with an aggressive agenda, comes conflict .. CARM
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http://carm.org/homosexual-read-first dadman

There probably isn't a God anyways, quit using the bible as a source. Honestly. People aren't going to suddenly stop being gay just because you throw verses at them. Why is this even a debate? Just let people marry who they want, because they're sure as hell going to love who they want.

well .. at least we can say they were warned .. sin is sin .. God is God .. consequences are consequences . . . it is what is is . . . the bridge is out

it is what it is

Jane wrote:

There probably isn't a God anyways ( YOU HOPE ) quit using the bible as a source ( MAKE ME ) Honestly. People aren't going to suddenly stop being gay just because you throw verses at them. Why is this even a debate? Just let people marry who they want, because they're sure as hell going to love who they want.

I really don't care who they love .. who they don't love ... marriage is marriage .. you can't change the definition .. civil union should be all you need .. define THAT anyway you want .. you own it

Marriage is between two people who love each other. It shouldn't matter the gender.

If America is supposed to be a "free nation," how can we deny a certain group of people their Constitutional rights? People will always do things other people don't agree with. That doesn't mean it should be illegal.

First off, they're not the "basic principles on which this country was founded." Yes, nearly 80% of Americans are Christian, but the nation was founded on the principle that America was to not be a nation ruled by religion like so many others. Many of our founding fathers were deists or atheists. But youSecondly, it's not just LGBs trying to change things. It is anyone who is for equal human rights, regardless of their sexual orientation. And I'm not really sure what you're implying when you say "the WORD they want to use to describe their relationships." But let me re-write this to you to put it in perspective.

It wouldn't be an issue if blacks weren't wanting to change the basic principles on which this country was founded and by which 78+% of all American citizens live. 12% of Americans are black. Why sould we forfeit ourr religious convictions to make the minority feel better about the WORD they want to use to describe their employment?

And, in case you are wondering, the Bible DOES condone slavery. Our laws against sodomy, gay marriage, and gay's donating blood are NO different from the Jim Crow laws, yet nearly everyone can agree that those laws were ridiculous and discriminatory. How long will it take for us to agree on this? America is repeating its mistakes, and it breaks my heart that history is being repeated.

Emily L wrote:

First off, they're not the "basic principles on which this country was founded." Yes, nearly 80% of Americans are Christian, but the nation was founded on the principle that America was to not be a nation ruled by religion like so many others. Many of our founding fathers were deists or atheists. But youSecondly, it's not just LGBs trying to change things. It is anyone who is for equal human rights, regardless of their sexual orientation. And I'm not really sure what you're implying when you say "the WORD they want to use to describe their relationships." But let me re-write this to you to put it in perspective.
It wouldn't be an issue if blacks weren't wanting to change the basic principles on which this country was founded and by which 78+% of all American citizens live. 12% of Americans are black. Why sould we forfeit ourr religious convictions to make the minority feel better about the WORD they want to use to describe their employment?
And, in case you are wondering, the Bible DOES condone slavery. Our laws against sodomy, gay marriage, and gay's donating blood are NO different from the Jim Crow laws, yet nearly everyone can agree that those laws were ridiculous and discriminatory. How long will it take for us to agree on this? America is repeating its mistakes, and it breaks my heart that history is being repeated.

STFU and swallow a cock you homo.

Dennis Rader wrote:

<quoted text>STFU and swallow a cock you homo.

^ Classic response from someone who can't respond intelligently to a well thought through and research-based claim. And for your information, I am 100% straight. I just also happen to believe in human equality.

Why not love is love. There is no god to judge!

For real?

Emily L wrote:

F Many of our founding fathers were deists or atheists.

Name them and provide evidence. I get tired of history revisionists making this stuff up. Be ready to defend your position with documented fact from legitimate historical research. I am ready to defend my position.

When half of your diatribe is predicated on false fact it destroys the rest of your statement.

Thomas Jefferson and several other Fathers were anti-clerical Christians. Benjamin Franklin was a Christian Deist. And some others were deists, such as Thomas Paine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers...

And before you say that wikipedia is unreliable, under the section marked "religion" where this information is given, it also gives the sources from which this information came.

So I'm not making this stuff up. Maybe other people are, but I have legitimate sources. And even if the Founding Fathers were ALL Christians, they weren't Christians in the modern sense of the world. If they were, there is a very slim chance that the Separation of Church and State would have been added to the Constitution. Now that we've established that my diatribe is in fact based on supported and well-researched fact, go ahead and tell me what else you think is wrong with my claim.

Emily L wrote:

So I'm not making this stuff up. Maybe other people are, but I have legitimate sources. And even if the Founding Fathers were ALL Christians, they weren't Christians in the modern sense of the world. If they were, there is a very slim chance that the Separation of Church and State would have been added to the Constitution. Now that we've established that my diatribe is in fact based on supported and well-researched fact, go ahead and tell me what else you think is wrong with my claim.

Nice try...but patently innacurate:

"While Jefferson has been lionized by those who seek to drive religion from public life, the true Thomas Jefferson is anything but their friend. He was anything but irreligious, anything but an enemy to Christian faith. Our nation’s third president was, in fact, a student of Scripture who attended church regularly, and was an active member of the Anglican Church, where he served on his local vestry. He was married in church, sent his children and a nephew to a Christian school, and gave his money to support many different congregations and Christian causes."

So what about the Jefferson Bible, that miracles-free version of the Scriptures?

That, too, is a myth.

It is not a Bible, but an abridgement of the Gospels created by Jefferson in 1804 for the benefit of the Indians.

Jefferson’s “Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted From the New Testament for the Use of the Indians” was a tool to evangelize and educate American Indians. There is no evidence that it was an expression of his skepticism.

Jefferson, who gave his money to assist missionary work among the Indians, believed his “abridgement of the New Testament for the use of the Indians” would help civilize and educate America’s aboriginal inhabitants. Nor did Jefferson cut all miracles from his work, as Beliles points out. While the original manuscript no longer exists, the Table of Texts that survives includes several accounts of Christ’s healings."

D. James Kennedy, Ph.D.,"Words and Writings of Thomas Jefferson"

Benjamin Franklin

A few weeks before his death at age 84, Benjamin Franklin summarized his religious beliefs, in terms with which I could readily associate myself:

"You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few words to gratify it.

Here is my creed.
•I believe in one God, the creator of the universe.
•That he governs by his providence.
•That he ought to be worshipped.
•That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children.
•That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this.
These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire,
•I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes,
•and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity;
•though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.
•I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed;
•especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

Christian Deism with a strong Christian bent.

Thomas Paine

"Willet Hicks, a Quaker merchant and preacher, a cousin of the celebrated Ellas Hicks, and a broad and liberal man, lived near Paine, and daring his last illness did all he could to alleviate the sufferings of the sick man and make his last hours pleasant. Mary Roscoe, afterwards Mary Hinsdale, was a servant in the Hicks family, and, it is alleged, was sometimes sent to Paine's room on errands. On one of these visits Paine, it is claimed, engaged her in conversation, and recanted to her his Infidel opinions. According to this story, "Paine asked her if she had ever read any of his writings, and on being told she had read very little of them, he inquired what she thought of them, adding,'From such a one as you I expect a correct answer.' She told him that when very young his 'Age of Reason' was put into her hands, but that the more she read in it the more dark and distressed she felt, and she threw the book into the fire.'I wish all hid done as you he replied,'for if the devil ever had any agency in any work, he has had it in my writing that book.' When going to carry, him some refreshments, she repeatedly heard him uttering the language,'Oh! Lord!''Lord God!, or 'Lord Jesus, have mercy upon me!"

(Life of Stephen Grellet, Vol. i., p. 125).

Thomas Paine recanted his diest works on his deathbed.

You have still not offered any evidence that even ONE of our Founding Fathers was an Athiest.

You need to read actual texts by learned scholars before referring to Wikipedia. Wikipedia can be and is manipulated by anyone with an agenda.

As for the Separation of Church and State:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

This was directly placed into the constitution to thwart any efforts to establish a National Religion...in response to the Church Taxation through Tithing from the Church of England. No other reason.

Understand that we open each Congress with a prayer, have IN GOD WE TRUST on our money and place our hand on the Bible when swearing in.(Obama used the same historic Bible that Lincoln did.)

To my error - I have for 60 years had a spelling problem with "ie vs ei"...meh...we all have our flaws. ;)

I feel that, on one's deathbed, anyone would feel the same as Paine did. He was ill and afraid to die, and it was a natural response. I do not, however, think that he meant to recant his entire life philosophy at that time. "IN GOD WE TRUST" is a recent addition to the United States currency. It was added in 1956.

I am not saying that America is not now a Christian nation; it is plain to see that it is, despite the fact that over 20% of the nation is not Christian: it is nearly impossible to become a member of government if you have declared yourself a non-Christian of any sort. There are laws still intact today that are based on some of the the Bible and its teachings. And there is an insanely unpopular view of those who are non-Christian.

It is plain to see that you have done your research and are a very competent and knowledgable person, but I think we are both making this too complicated. Neither of us can truly know how the Founding Fathers felt about religion unless we talked to them personally, no matter how many sources we find. It is incredibly possible that they were all devout Christians, but it is also very possible that some of them had different ideas. If they wanted religion or Christianity or the Bible to be any part of the government, I feel sure that they would have added it. And I think it should mean something that they didn't.

Besides, that's not even my purpose for my first comment. I said that because it irritates me when people say that the nation was founded on Christianity as a justification for banning gay marriage. Regardless of what the nation was founded on, it is ridiculous to deny a group of people the right to marry.