Gay Marriage Debate - Greenville, SC

Andrew wrote:

As a Christian, the Bible states, in multiple places, that marriage is between a man and a woman. I support this as Christians should.

Homophobic Hypocrites!

Deut 22 says that if your bride isn't a virgin you're supposed to beat her to death with rocks. Well? Haven't read about that happening lately.

Adam married his clone, Cain was marked so that people he met wouldn't kill him and went to the land of Nod, where he got married and had a son, Enoch and they built a city.
Where did the people who were going to kill Cain come from? Cain invented murder, and the secret was between him and God. Where did Cain find a wife? It wasn't his relative, because he was banished from wherever his family was.
There are so many holes in the Old Testament, and so many other laws within it that Good Christians ABSOLUTELY IGNORE, that any mention of Leviticus is merely a convenient excuse to rationalize bigotry. The real intellectual root of this bigotry isn't God, it's "Eewww! Icky!"
Moving on from the Old Testament. What did Jesus say was the greatest Commandment? C'mon, you know it...
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:‘Love your neighbor as yourself."

Notice: it says LOVE your neighbor as yourself, not LOATH your neighbor and so forth.

AIDS

its a twisted selfish version of a relationship, its de-evolutionary. I don't care what the bible says, I've known many gays- there is something inherently wrong - sorry

I've never seen anything in the Bible that demanded Christians to get into the political world of whatever nation they reside in. Personally, I believe that equality should be spread across the nation no matter what. If it's a sin that they do it, so be it, but at least have the option available. According to most traditional Christians, it is also a sin to get completely wasted, but that's no longer illegal. It's still an option to drink however much you want, but it's frowned upon by others.
Conclusion, equality shouldn't be a matter of right or wrong. It's what people do with it and whatever moral lens they're viewed through by the others' and their beliefs or culture. In short, Christians should not try so hard to focus on the political matters of gay marriage, and should do what Jesus wanted of them.

Maria wrote:

<quoted text>
I think that it mocks what is natural. That's why two women and two men can't have children naturally. That's why they have to use surrogates or donors.

Clothing is unnatural. Cars are unnatural. TV dinners are unnatural. Fertility drugs are unnatural. Maternity wards are unnatural. The internet is unnatural. Do you wear a loincloth, live in a cave and grub around the woods for food? Yes, I'm MOCKING you.

I think everyone has the right

Someone into politics wrote:

Gay marriage is a good idea, however, there are many issues that need to be addressed first. Examples include homosexual couples given the right to adopt, will their possessions to their partners, and common law marriage, for states like South Carolina at least (for example, if two heterosexual men are roommates for over 6 months, how will that play into effect with common law marriage and homosexual marriage, will that mean they are marrie?). I believe, in order for this issue to be passed, there will have to be several other laws that will have to be changed. Finally, there is always the potential of people to marry a good friend for the fringe benefits of marriage without actually being homosexuals.

To your last point...that is not an exclusive concern to gay marriage. That can, and does, happen in straight marriages and there are fraud laws to deal with that.

Tired of the rif raf! Just let them get married,,,who Cares! It's in Gods hands!

I do not hate gay people any more than I had liars and theives, but I still think homosexuality is a sin, as described by the Bible, in the NT, in every direct from hebrew and greek) )translation available.

Muddy wrote:

<quoted text>Because of your 3rd grade level grammar, English is obviously not your first language....but keep practicing!

Insulting someone's poor grammar doesn't strengthen your argument in any way. In fact, it makes your argument look weak because it seems that you can't deal with the information, or view, being presented. Therefore, you must resort to mud-slinging.

It also makes you look bad if, in your correction, you use less than perfect English. Example. The proper English rule is that, when using a number consisting of fewer than four digits, you are to write it out. In this instance, "...your third grade level grammar,..." would be correct. By all means, keep practicing and stop correcting!

LisaCP2012 wrote:

I do not hate gay people any more than I had liars and theives, but I still think homosexuality is a sin, as described by the Bible, in the NT, in every direct from hebrew and greek))translation available.

I do not hate gay people any more than I hate liars and thieves, but I still think homosexuality is a sin, as described in the Bible, in the NT, in every direct (from original Hebrew and Greek) translation available.

Stupid keyboard!

Additionally, no Christian should hate anyone. You were also one living in sin, a slave to your sinful nature and unable to please God. If God saved you, it is not because of any righteousness of your own, but because of His mercy to you. Your salvation should cause your humility, not your condescension to others. "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble!" James 4:6

ChromiuMan wrote:

<quoted text>
Homophobic Hypocrites!
Deut 22 says that if your bride isn't a virgin you're supposed to beat her to death with rocks. Well? Haven't read about that happening lately.
Adam married his clone, Cain was marked so that people he met wouldn't kill him and went to the land of Nod, where he got married and had a son, Enoch and they built a city.
Where did the people who were going to kill Cain come from? Cain invented murder, and the secret was between him and God. Where did Cain find a wife? It wasn't his relative, because he was banished from wherever his family was.
There are so many holes in the Old Testament, and so many other laws within it that Good Christians ABSOLUTELY IGNORE, that any mention of Leviticus is merely a convenient excuse to rationalize bigotry. The real intellectual root of this bigotry isn't God, it's "Eewww! Icky!"
Moving on from the Old Testament. What did Jesus say was the greatest Commandment? C'mon, you know it...
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:‘Love your neighbor as yourself."
Notice: it says LOVE your neighbor as yourself, not LOATH your neighbor and so forth.

The law we "ignore" is strictly ceremonial law. This law was given under the covenant of works. In other words, through repeated sacrifice of animals and adherence to this law, righteousness was achieved. The sacrifice was necessary because of sin, and "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." Hebrews 9:22

So, the repetition was necessary because the sacrifices were imperfect and finite, not eternal. With the coming of Christ and His finished work of redemption through death and resurrection, there has now been one perfect, eternal sacrifice, for this reason, "but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood." Hebrews 7:24 (The reference to priest is because the OT priest had to cleanse himself and offer the sacrifice. Christ, being perfect, offered himself so He became our Priest and our Sacrifice) So, now we are under the Covenant of Grace.

ChromiuMan wrote:

<quoted text>
Homophobic Hypocrites!
Deut 22 says that if your bride isn't a virgin you're supposed to beat her to death with rocks. Well? Haven't read about that happening lately.
Adam married his clone, Cain was marked so that people he met wouldn't kill him and went to the land of Nod, where he got married and had a son, Enoch and they built a city.
Where did the people who were going to kill Cain come from? Cain invented murder, and the secret was between him and God. Where did Cain find a wife? It wasn't his relative, because he was banished from wherever his family was.
There are so many holes in the Old Testament, and so many other laws within it that Good Christians ABSOLUTELY IGNORE, that any mention of Leviticus is merely a convenient excuse to rationalize bigotry. The real intellectual root of this bigotry isn't God, it's "Eewww! Icky!"
Moving on from the Old Testament. What did Jesus say was the greatest Commandment? C'mon, you know it...
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:‘Love your neighbor as yourself."
Notice: it says LOVE your neighbor as yourself, not LOATH your neighbor and so forth.

Also, your comments about Cain are clearly not grounded in the narrative from the Bible. You said, "went to the land of Nod, where he got married and had a son, Enoch and they built a city" but Genesis 4 16-17a says, "Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch;" Nothing says or suggests that he "found one in Nod." The reason for the recording of this particular instance of love-making, was to have a written record of lineage, continuing with the story of his son, Enoch. At the time, the only people on the earth HAD to intermarry in order for procreation to happen. Intermarrying that close was deemed sinful when it was no longer necessary for procreation.

Christ ALSO says, "If you love me, obey my commandments" John 14:15. So, if Christ, equally God, states in His Word that homosexuality is a sin, we must act as such and avoid it. Homosexuality is a sin against your own self, not others, so there's not immediate threat like with someone murdering, "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." 1 Cor. 6:18.
As to loving people, we should show a homosexual love the same way we should show it to all others who are unregenerate (those who don't claim to believe in God)*. We should not condone their sin, any more than we condone lying and stealing, but we should treat them with respect and acts of kindness, and as with anyone, be willing to tell them the truth and share the Gospel as the opportunity arises. Example: You expressed your thoughts and left them open to feedback, so the opportunity was presented for me to share some truth with you. I wouldn't express many of my beliefs unless someone actively or passively (like in this instance) invited me to. Christian's should, one-on-one, use this method or one like it, because shoving information at someone who has not invited it, will almost never receive a positive response...one-on-one.

*believe in God- to clarify, someone who "believes in God", or "is regenerate/saved", must not only say, "I believe God exists" but also,"I believe in God's Word" because God claims, in His word, that Christ (God the Son, the God-Man, God Incarnate) is the Word! John 1:14 says, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."You cannot deny Scripture and its teachings and fall under the category of people who "believe in God" in the way to which my comment makes reference. Just thought I'd clarify

ChromiuMan wrote:

<quoted text>
Homophobic Hypocrites!
Deut 22 says that if your bride isn't a virgin you're supposed to beat her to death with rocks. Well? Haven't read about that happening lately.
Adam married his clone, Cain was marked so that people he met wouldn't kill him and went to the land of Nod, where he got married and had a son, Enoch and they built a city.
Where did the people who were going to kill Cain come from? Cain invented murder, and the secret was between him and God. Where did Cain find a wife? It wasn't his relative, because he was banished from wherever his family was.
There are so many holes in the Old Testament, and so many other laws within it that Good Christians ABSOLUTELY IGNORE, that any mention of Leviticus is merely a convenient excuse to rationalize bigotry. The real intellectual root of this bigotry isn't God, it's "Eewww! Icky!"
Moving on from the Old Testament. What did Jesus say was the greatest Commandment? C'mon, you know it...
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:‘Love your neighbor as yourself."
Notice: it says LOVE your neighbor as yourself, not LOATH your neighbor and so forth.

Also, your comments about Cain are clearly not grounded in the narrative from the Bible. You said, "went to the land of Nod, where he got married and had a son, Enoch and they built a city" but Genesis 4 16-17a says, "Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch;" Nothing says or suggests that he "found one in Nod." The reason for the recording of this particular instance of love-making, was to have a written record of lineage, continuing with the story of his son, Enoch. At the time, the only people on the earth HAD to intermarry in order for procreation to happen. Intermarrying that close was deemed sinful when it was no longer necessary for procreation.

Christ ALSO says, "If you love me, obey my commandments" John 14:15. So, if Christ, equally God, states in His Word that homosexuality is a sin, we must act as such and avoid it. Homosexuality is a sin against your own self, not others, so there's not immediate threat like with someone murdering, "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." 1 Cor. 6:18.
As to loving people, we should show a homosexual love the same way we should show it to all others who are unregenerate (those who don't claim to believe in God)*. We should not condone their sin, any more than we condone lying and stealing, but we should treat them with respect and acts of kindness, and as with anyone, be willing to tell them the truth and share the Gospel as the opportunity arises. Example: You expressed your thoughts and left them open to feedback, so the opportunity was presented for me to share some truth with you. I wouldn't express many of my beliefs unless someone actively or passively (like in this instance) invited me to. Christian's should, one-on-one, use this method or one like it, because shoving information at someone who has not invited it, will almost never receive a positive response...one-on-one.

*believe in God- to clarify, someone who "believes in God", or "is regenerate/saved", must not only say, "I believe God exists" but also,"I believe in God's Word" because God claims, in His word, that Christ (God the Son, the God-Man, God Incarnate) is the Word! John 1:14 says, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."You cannot deny Scripture and its teachings and fall under the category of people who "believe in God" in the way to which my comment makes reference. Just thought I'd clarify.

LisaCP2012 wrote:

<quoted text>
The law we "ignore" is strictly ceremonial law...

Additionally,

Also, your comments about Cain are clearly not grounded in the narrative from the Bible. You said, "went to the land of Nod, where he got married and had a son, Enoch and they built a city" but Genesis 4 16-17a says, "Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch;" Nothing says or suggests that he "found one in Nod." The reason for the recording of this particular instance of love-making, was to have a written record of lineage, continuing with the story of his son, Enoch. At the time, the only people on the earth HAD to intermarry in order for procreation to happen. Intermarrying that close was deemed sinful when it was no longer necessary for procreation.

Christ ALSO says, "If you love me, obey my commandments" John 14:15. So, if Christ, equally God, states in His Word that homosexuality is a sin, we must act as such and avoid it. Homosexuality is a sin against your own self, not others, so there's not immediate threat like with someone murdering, "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." 1 Cor. 6:18.
As to loving people, we should show a homosexual love the same way we should show it to all others who are unregenerate (those who don't claim to believe in God)*. We should not condone their sin, any more than we condone lying and stealing, but we should treat them with respect and acts of kindness, and as with anyone, be willing to tell them the truth and share the Gospel as the opportunity arises. Example: You expressed your thoughts and left them open to feedback, so the opportunity was presented for me to share some truth with you. I wouldn't express many of my beliefs unless someone actively or passively (like in this instance) invited me to. Christian's should, one-on-one, use this method or one like it, because shoving information at someone who has not invited it, will almost never receive a positive response...one-on-one.

*believe in God- to clarify, someone who "believes in God", or "is regenerate/saved", must not only say, "I believe God exists" but also,"I believe in God's Word" because God claims, in His word, that Christ (God the Son, the God-Man, God Incarnate) is the Word! John 1:14 says, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."You cannot deny Scripture and its teachings and fall under the category of people who "believe in God" in the way to which my comment makes reference. Just thought I'd clarify

SIGH! Stupid computer posted in THREE times! Sorry about that! hopefully the mod will take down the two extra!

LisaCP2012 wrote:

<quoted text>
The law we "ignore" is strictly ceremonial law. This law was given under the covenant of works. In other words, through repeated sacrifice of animals and adherence to this law, righteousness was achieved. The sacrifice was necessary because of sin, and "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." Hebrews 9:22
So, the repetition was necessary because the sacrifices were imperfect and finite, not eternal. With the coming of Christ and His finished work of redemption through death and resurrection, there has now been one perfect, eternal sacrifice, for this reason, "but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood." Hebrews 7:24 (The reference to priest is because the OT priest had to cleanse himself and offer the sacrifice. Christ, being perfect, offered himself so He became our Priest and our Sacrifice) So, now we are under the Covenant of Grace.

I'm sorry you felt you had to type all of that - I'm not mentally impaired. Expounding on your mythology is wasted on those of us whose version of reality is not faith based. Maybe not wasted - it's good for a laugh.
Your belief that an unfathomably powerful Creator of this inconceivably large and complex Universe EVER demanded sacrificial livestock is ridiculous.

ChromiuMan wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm sorry you felt you had to type all of that - I'm not mentally impaired. Expounding on your mythology is wasted on those of us whose version of reality is not faith based. Maybe not wasted - it's good for a laugh.
Your belief that an unfathomably powerful Creator of this inconceivably large and complex Universe EVER demanded sacrificial livestock is ridiculous.

It was my pleasure to write it. It's good to know that if someone comes looking for the truth here, they will find parts of it. Real, researched arguments, not broad statements with no support. Also, attacking me personally, Ad hominem, doesn't help your argument, it just makes you look like you can't make a rebuttal to my statements. It actually makes my argument look better!

Additionally, your version of reality is faith based, just like anyone else's. How do you know your computer is real? Because you can see it, right? Your senses tell you its real. You have faith that your senses tell you correctly. Your senses also tell you that you have a million dollars in your dream. You can see it, touch it, even taste or smell if if you, in your dream state, chose to do so. When you awake, you are not a millionaire. Your senses have lied to you...yet, you have faith that everything else they tell you is, in fact, real.

You have faith that scientists are not lying to you. You have faith that I am. Everyone has faith, where they put it is what differentiates them. You mock me because you think I've put my faith in the wrong place. I think that your faith is misplaced, but I do not mock you- because I can love you as God loves me, something you are incapable of doing for me, since you do not know God's love.

My faith has changed me, has given me the ability to love myself and others correctly, it has freed me to serve God rather than sin, to enjoy an abundant life, where I can see my sin and war against it. My faith has given me more than any man or woman could ever take away. My faith answers my questions and leaves me feeling peaceful and satisfied. Does your faith do any of that for you?

ChromiuMan wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm sorry you felt you had to type all of that - I'm not mentally impaired. Expounding on your mythology is wasted on those of us whose version of reality is not faith based. Maybe not wasted - it's good for a laugh.
Your belief that an unfathomably powerful Creator of this inconceivably large and complex Universe EVER demanded sacrificial livestock is ridiculous.

Oh, and you started expounding mythology just a few hours before I did. You made a Biblical argument first, when you tried to use all those verses to support your argument. All I did was correct you because you said the Bible says this and that...when the Bible never said any such thing.

LisaCP2012 wrote:

<quoted text>
Oh, and you started expounding mythology just a few hours before I did. You made a Biblical argument first, when you tried to use all those verses to support your argument. All I did was correct you because you said the Bible says this and that...when the Bible never said any such thing.

I apologize for the personal attack. I do not believe that lying to one's self is the same as lying to another.
What the Bible says is irrelevant to my world view, so I'm not inclined to spurious over-speculation or the employment of theological machinations to facilitate a denominational ideology.
I chose not to make a point-by-point rebuttal to your statements because I am not interested in attempting a logical argument with someone who worships from a 1600 year old book, a practice which to me is little different from a waking dream state. I have made the argument of faith in a light switch before - and the obvious difference is that faith in a light switch is based on observation and evidence. Science is based on observation as well - it depends on proofs of repeatable results. If and when results are dis-proven, they are discarded and new theories might be proposed. This is absolutely not the case with religious texts. Once they are adopted, they are held as the immutable word of God despite even indisputable errors and flaws (insects have more than four legs, bats are not birds, etc.). As you point out, the repeatable proofs of faith are emotional and regardless of any protests you might have, the feelings and benefits you affirm are precisely the same for the devout in Bhuddism, Wicca and Shinto.
Many parts of the Bible are consistant with others only through passionate and imaginitive interpretation - this hardly constitutes a "Real, researched argument". The stories of Genesis CLEARLY indicate that there was a larger populace outside of the Garden than is accounted for with just the descendents of Adam and Eve. Perhaps Cain was already married to his sister or cousin and took her along to the land of Nod, but then why had he not "known" her previously? The text does not say "and Cain and his family went out from the presence of the Lord" but it does imply that there were others living outside of the presence of the Lord, else there would be no city of Enoch. The unbiased and logical implication is that he took her as a wife after arriving in Nod.
Only an emotionally invested Creationist makes the illogical and unsubstatiated leap that "At the time, the only people on the earth HAD to intermarry in order for procreation to happen" and regards that as "truth" or fact despite contrary archaeological evidence
Likewise, only social prejudice and/or emotional predilection for dogma rationalizes persecution based on sexual preferences.