Abortion Debate - Utica, NY

Just saying wrote:

My mom had an abortion when she was 18....she regrets it so much!! It's very hard for me to read all the comments, but I have to say I could never abort my children....I was 21 when I had my oldest and glad my mom talked to me and reassured me that if I were to get pregnant young...she would be there....nobody should judge if they don't know the woman's situation....I don't think having an abortion is something women really want....people can have their beliefs, but I disagree with marching around about it, especially if they didn't go through it!

truth wrote:

<quoted text>
So what you are saying then is that anyone who has an opinion different than yours should just shutup. There are plenty of places around the world that have societies like that. They are called dictatorships. The rights and freedoms we enjoy in the United States are what has made us the greatest there has ever been. Think about that before trying to shut someone down just because they have a different opinion.

Bodhisatva wrote:

<quoted text>No I think what she was trying to say was, The Canard that "women use abortion as a form of birth control" is ridiculous on it's face. Any one who has been through it or has a loved one who has been through it, knows better. The picture painted by the Anti Abortion fanatics is one of Women Laughing and having a grand old time of it while just aborting pregnancies willy nilly. They need to get their noses out of other Peoples business. It is a very difficult and often life altering experience.
If "pro life" advocates REALLY wanted to reduce the number of Abortions, they would SUPPORT Clinics who provide alternatives to unwanted pregnancy, like Planned Parenthood.
The other inconvenient fact is, When it is made more difficult to obtain Women's health services, it disproportionately impacts Poor Women. People of significant means have always been able to receive Care even before Abortions were legal. It was usually Poor women who died from back alley Abortions.

Ben Gleck the Magnificent wrote:

So the boob thinks killing babies is a right. Killing millions of babies is something the boob is proud of? How sick can you get? You pathetic piece of crap, supporting killing babies, there is no lower form of human being then you.
<quoted text>

Bodhisatva wrote:

<quoted text>No I think what she was trying to say was, The Canard that "women use abortion as a form of birth control" is ridiculous on it's face. Any one who has been through it or has a loved one who has been through it, knows better. The picture painted by the Anti Abortion fanatics is one of Women Laughing and having a grand old time of it while just aborting pregnancies willy nilly. They need to get their noses out of other Peoples business. It is a very difficult and often life altering experience.
If "pro life" advocates REALLY wanted to reduce the number of Abortions, they would SUPPORT Clinics who provide alternatives to unwanted pregnancy, like Planned Parenthood.
The other inconvenient fact is, When it is made more difficult to obtain Women's health services, it disproportionately impacts Poor Women. People of significant means have always been able to receive Care even before Abortions were legal. It was usually Poor women who died from back alley Abortions.

faith based guy wrote:

<quoted text>
You are just wrong here. No one is portraying woman as having a grand old time and laughing. The Catholic Church doctrine says that not only abortion is wrong but that all forms of contraception is as well. You can agree or disagree but the doctrine and teaching is what it is. Given that teaching how can you honestly expect practicing pro-life Catholics would ever support Planned Parenthood? The Church teaches that life begins at the moment of conception and that abortion is the taking of a life. While the body may not be viable outside the womb of the mother, the soul most certainly is. The Church also teaches that sex is reserved for a man and woman united in marriage and the purpose is procreation and not just for pleasure. With that in mind, any form of artificial contraception is contrary to the doctrine and teachings of the Church.
Again, you are entitled to your opinion regarding what the Catholic Church teaches (and to be honest there are plenty of "cafeteria Catholics" who would agree with you) but the Catholic Church is not a democracy. The rules are the rules.
I'm not trying to change your mind. Just trying to explain because you don't seem to be aware of the underlying facts and teachings that motivate many of the pro-life advocates.

Brooke Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
While all of that is fine and dandy, what difference does it make? America is not a theocracy, and is certainly not a majority Catholic. What the Catholic Church teaches its sheep has no bearing on the laws of this nation.
I cannot believe that anyone would follow a Church that was just recently (by recently I mean the last decade) under harsh scrutiny because of unlawful exorcisms that lead to dozens of people dying. This, of course, was in Europe and not America...but the Pope still sanctioned these killings.
And I was under the impression that the new Pope sanctioned birth control for health reasons?

faith based guy wrote:

<quoted text>
You are just wrong here. No one is portraying woman as having a grand old time and laughing. The Catholic Church doctrine says that not only abortion is wrong but that all forms of contraception is as well. You can agree or disagree but the doctrine and teaching is what it is. Given that teaching how can you honestly expect practicing pro-life Catholics would ever support Planned Parenthood? The Church teaches that life begins at the moment of conception and that abortion is the taking of a life. While the body may not be viable outside the womb of the mother, the soul most certainly is. The Church also teaches that sex is reserved for a man and woman united in marriage and the purpose is procreation and not just for pleasure. With that in mind, any form of artificial contraception is contrary to the doctrine and teachings of the Church.
Again, you are entitled to your opinion regarding what the Catholic Church teaches (and to be honest there are plenty of "cafeteria Catholics" who would agree with you) but the Catholic Church is not a democracy. The rules are the rules.
I'm not trying to change your mind. Just trying to explain because you don't seem to be aware of the underlying facts and teachings that motivate many of the pro-life advocates.

Brooke Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
While all of that is fine and dandy, what difference does it make? America is not a theocracy, and is certainly not a majority Catholic. What the Catholic Church teaches its sheep has no bearing on the laws of this nation.
I cannot believe that anyone would follow a Church that was just recently (by recently I mean the last decade) under harsh scrutiny because of unlawful exorcisms that lead to dozens of people dying. This, of course, was in Europe and not America...but the Pope still sanctioned these killings.
And I was under the impression that the new Pope sanctioned birth control for health reasons?

Gay Guy wrote:

<quoted text>
That "faith" only holds up when used to control someone else. 99% of women in the United States who have had sex have used some form of birth control, and those statistics INCLUDE Catholics. In fact, 98% of Catholic women have used birth control.
Reality check time: just because you choose to push your religious dogma, doesn't mean everyone has to fall in line. In fact, the majority of those who share your religious affiliation don't even agree with you!
Let me leave you with the simple fact that even in Mississippi, heart of the Bible Belt, the "personhood" amendment to try to outlaw abortion FAILED.... by double digits.
Reproductive freedom is here to stay.

faith based guy wrote:

<quoted text>
I at least two previous posts I stated that everyone is entitled to their point of view. I also stated that many Catholics do not agree with the church on abortion and contraception. I also said that I am offering my two cents as an explanation. I do that because there seems to be a misconception or downright ignorance about why pro-life folks do what they do. I'll say it again. Believe what you want to believe. Advocate for your point of view but please don't try to silence the point of view of others you don't agree with.
The people of Mississippi voted. The outcome is what it is. That doesn't mean that Catholics or other people of faith have to agree with the outcome. It just means they have to abide by it because it is now the law. From you previous Topix posts we know that you don't agree with the voters in California who twice decided by ballot that marriage should be defined as between one man and one woman nor do you agree with the other thirty or so states who didn't have a liberal court overturn the will of the people. In those states that don't allow gay marriage you don't have to agree with it but you do have to abide by it because it is the law. You have the right to assemble with those who believe as you do and advocate for a change in the law. Same principle applies in both cases.

Gay Guy wrote:

<quoted text>
Let me break it down for you: you absolutely have the right to BELIEVE life begins at conception, and that abortion is wrong, but you are saying YOUR PERSONAL religious beliefs should be the presiding factor in PUBLIC, SOCIAL, SECULAR policy. That would be forcing everyone in this country to follow YOUR religious dogma, thereby making the US a THEOCRACY, and violating the right to freedom of religion. The flipside is that by having abortion be legal, you still are not forced to DO anything. No one is aborting anything from YOUR body (not that they could, since you LACK OVARIES), they are claiming dominion over their OWN bodies. No one is suppressing your right to believe, or your right to voice that belief. Taking away rights is a completely separate issue.
The reason I refuse to back down from those anti-gay states is because people are voting on someone's RIGHTS and WORTH. Let's revisit what was written above: forcing someone to do or not do something because it is against YOUR religious beliefs is discrimination and a violation of the First Amendment. If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one, but don't say YOUR religion says it is wrong and so it should be illegal. We do not live under a theocratic ruler, and our laws should reflect this country's secular status.

faith based guy wrote:

<quoted text>
Unlike marriage where there is no right to mayy in law, I'm saying that the pro life folks have a right, specifically spelled out in the US Constitution, to assemble and advocate for a point of view. That is the same right the gay community and people who share their views have. Public policy is the result of public opinion and what the public at large finds acceptable. That is where the law comes from. It is fluid and evolves. What most people found unthinkable and unacceptable in previous generations is universally accepted because of changes in public opinion. It really is that simple. To advocate for one's personal beliefs is not only a right, it is a responsibility in our society. That's regardless of whether the belief is founded in faith, sexuality or any other factor that contributes who and what we are as well as what we believe.
You are fundamentally wrong in saying "you still are not forced to DO anything". Under current law people who take a pro life position are forced to accept what they view as the murder of an innocent soul. A soul that cannot speak for itself.
What you are saying is that because the pro life movement point of view is founded in religious teaching that it shouldn't count because the US is not a theocracy. Using the same logic, how can the opinion of a gay person mean anything in an abortion debate?

faith based guy wrote:

<quoted text>
As I said, all are entitled to their opinion. Pro-life people march and protest against abortion because they believe that life begins at conception and that abortion is murder. You don't agree with that assertion and that's fine. Every person has to make his or her own decision about where they stand on this. Pro-life people who march have decided that they want to be the voice of the unborn who have no voice. I'm explaining the position, not making a judgement like you are.
I have to correct you on one thing. While America is not a theocracy, the US Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. When American law contradicts one's religious beliefs or interferes with their ability to freely practice their religion then it is against the law. That is the basis for the current flap over the part of the Obama universal healthcare plan that forces Catholic churches, hospitals, charities and other church owned organizations to provide insurance plans that include abortion and contraception coverage. The Catholic church should not make US law but in addition, US law should not mandate actions that go against the core doctrine and teachings of any church.

Gay Guy wrote:

<quoted text>
Let me break it down for you: you absolutely have the right to BELIEVE life begins at conception, and that abortion is wrong, but you are saying YOUR PERSONAL religious beliefs should be the presiding factor in PUBLIC, SOCIAL, SECULAR policy. That would be forcing everyone in this country to follow YOUR religious dogma, thereby making the US a THEOCRACY, and violating the right to freedom of religion. The flipside is that by having abortion be legal, you still are not forced to DO anything. No one is aborting anything from YOUR body (not that they could, since you LACK OVARIES), they are claiming dominion over their OWN bodies. No one is suppressing your right to believe, or your right to voice that belief. Taking away rights is a completely separate issue.
The reason I refuse to back down from those anti-gay states is because people are voting on someone's RIGHTS and WORTH. Let's revisit what was written above: forcing someone to do or not do something because it is against YOUR religious beliefs is discrimination and a violation of the First Amendment. If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one, but don't say YOUR religion says it is wrong and so it should be illegal. We do not live under a theocratic ruler, and our laws should reflect this country's secular status.

Bodhisatva wrote:

<quoted text>There are many flaws in your point of view, The Guarantee for freedom of religion does not Guarantee the freedom to participate in Government funded operations while simultaneously dictating based on Religious Doctrine, what Patients or other individuals are allowed to do. If the Christian Scientists decided to operate as Health Care Providers, they would be quickly called out for their refusal of Medical Care under the circumstances contrary to their Religious Teachings.
The Catholic Church is no different. They CHOOSE to be involved in Hospitals and Nursing Care, If they cannot offer the care needed by ALL their Patients they should GET OUT, or at very least give up their Tax Exempt Status.
BTW did you know the term "Pro-Life" was co-opted by the anti abortion folks? Pro-Life used to be the movement against the Death Penalty.
Why? are SO Many Christians, Anti Abortion, while supportive of War and the Death Penalty?

Brooke Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
While all of that is fine and dandy, what difference does it make? America is not a theocracy, and is certainly not a majority Catholic. What the Catholic Church teaches its sheep has no bearing on the laws of this nation.
I cannot believe that anyone would follow a Church that was just recently (by recently I mean the last decade) under harsh scrutiny because of unlawful exorcisms that lead to dozens of people dying. This, of course, was in Europe and not America...but the Pope still sanctioned these killings.
And I was under the impression that the new Pope sanctioned birth control for health reasons?

The Incredible Edible Egg wrote:

<quoted text>
I did not know there was a law regarding exorcisms. So you are willing to accept that there is a spiritual realm of good and evil? In your own words describe what these priests were "exorcising"? Did they exorcise the muppets out of their victims?