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kgc
Springfield, IL
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Think Again wrote: <quoted text>
It is amazing that in one fell swoop, you discount every book of the Bible other than the synoptic gospels and John, assuming you still approve of John’s Gospel as necessary with all of those troubling “I am” statements.
To completely ignore what the “followers” of Jesus had to say on this matter is illogical since Jesus himself promised the disciples that he would send a helper (Holy Spirit) to guide them.
Your assumption that since Jesus never mentioned “homosexuality” that it must be ok is a reach. Omission does not equal permission. He didn’t have to mention it. The Jews already knew it was wrong and a sin (abomination). Jesus does reaffirm marriage between one man and one woman and discusses divorce in Matthew 19. He goes on to discuss eunuchs and how if they cannot accept this word it is better for them not to marry.
Whether you interpret scripture using the text alone or hermeneutically, you would get the same conclusion that it is a sin. Well, TA, What makes you think that the Holy Spirit is no longer guiding? In my opinion, it is guiding and the direction it is leading is toward the full inclusion and acceptance of the GLBT population among us, including providing a legitimate and spiritual way to be married. You've got some idea that the Bible is the end to all argument. It is not. It is a roadmap to and along the Way. But, it is not The Way itself. Furthermore, by now it ought to be apparent to you, a reasonably intelligent and logical thinker, that it doesn't cover everything in every way to the extent that there can be no differences in opinion about what it says. Take St. Paul, for instance. He talks about being caught up to the "Third heaven." What is that, TA? In the Sufi teachings, there are at least seven Heaven planes of consciousness. What do you think he was referring to in that statement? Certainly, it is evident that scripture, as far as the Bible goes, gives no explanation for or nor further definition to the experience of which Paul spoke. Paul was accepting of slavery, at that time. Did that make it acceptable for the next 2000 years? When did Christians decide to go against St. Paul's standards of acceptability? Where are you, TA? KGC
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Think Again
Clinton, NC
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KGC, thanks for your thoughtful response. kgc wrote: <quoted text>
“What makes you think that the Holy Spirit is no longer guiding? In my opinion, it is guiding and the direction it is leading is toward the full inclusion and acceptance of the GLBT population among us, including providing a legitimate and spiritual way to be married.” The question isn’t if the Holy Spirit is no longer guiding. He certainly is guiding but the guidance provided will not go against what was written. If the Spirit was guiding in a different direction than what was received, then God would be contradicting Himself and that will never happen. Anyone who had the ability to give revelation had to be accredited, and the accreditation was, according to 2 Corinthians 12, the signs of an Apostle. It was known to all who these people were or the fact that they were Apostles or they were those who were associated with the Apostles. So I think it is very, very important to understand that, Revelation has ceased and even when it was being given--not everybody got it. And it never was something that God just passed out indiscriminately to all kinds of people. John sums it up another way: (1 John 4:1 NIV) Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. kgc wrote: <quoted text>
You've got some idea that the Bible is the end to all argument. It is not. It is a roadmap to and along the Way. But, it is not The Way itself. Furthermore, by now it ought to be apparent to you, a reasonably intelligent and logical thinker, that it doesn't cover everything in every way to the extent that there can be no differences in opinion about what it says. The Bible is more than a roadmap; it is the Word of God in written form. It should be used to judge our experiences rather than using our experiences to judge scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV) “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” Titus 1:9 (NIV) “He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.”
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Think Again
Clinton, NC
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KGC continued: kgc wrote: <quoted text>
Take St. Paul, for instance. He talks about being caught up to the "Third heaven." What is that, TA? In the Sufi teachings, there are at least seven Heaven planes of consciousness. What do you think he was referring to in that statement? Certainly, it is evident that scripture, as far as the Bible goes, gives no explanation for or nor further definition to the experience of which Paul spoke. Briefly, the third heaven that Paul describes in 2 Corinthians has to do with his conversion on the Damascus road. Paul describes conceptually what many Jews of his day thought of Heaven being in layers sort of like an onion. It is the way that the Jews built their temples (Solomon’s Temple) to reflect the holiest of places. Since Paul saw the risen Christ he conceptually describes himself as going to the third Heaven or the most holy place. kgc wrote: <quoted text>
“Paul was accepting of slavery, at that time. Did that make it acceptable for the next 2000 years? When did Christians decide to go against St. Paul's standards of acceptability?. Many slaves in Biblical times were servants who may have sold themselves into “slavery” to work off debt. Many of these people were well taken care of although some were not. Many professional people (doctors and lawyers) were also sold into slavery to pay off debt. The Bible does however condemn “man stealing” which is what occurred during the slave trade in the 1600 – 1800’s. The Gospel is about changing hearts not political or socio-economic circumstances. Even Jesus when questioned about paying taxes said,“Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s. As you know most of the Jews of his day expected the Messiah to be like King David and overthrow the Roman Empire. Certainly Jesus could have done that with one word but he was concerned about changing hearts and eternal salvation. For a more Biblically based discussion of the differences of “slavery” in the two eras, I suggest you read “A Condensed Anti-Slavery Bible Argument; By a Citizen of Virginia:” by George Bourne. It can be found here: http://docsouth.unc.edu/church/bourne/bourne.... Exodus 21: 16 (KJV) “And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.”
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kgc
Springfield, IL
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Think Again wrote: KGC, thanks for your thoughtful response.
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
The Bible is more than a roadmap; it is the Word of God in written form. It should be used to judge our experiences rather than using our experiences to judge scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Titus 1:9 (NIV)
“He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.” Dear TA, My characterization of the Bible as a "roadmap" was not intended to be an expression of all that the Bible is or should be to us. But, that's a decent analogy. Still, you can find no quote within the Bible that claims or says that it is the "Word of God" in written form. It is not the Word of God. To attempt to characterize it as such is to mistakenly make an idol out of it. Secondly, to do so also mistakenly places limits on what the Word of God is or can be to us. To call the Bible the Word of God is a very common mischaracterization. No. I'll stick with my analogy. You pick up a roadmap to see where you are and how to get from your current place of understanding to your intended destination. That destination should be an ever intensifying experience of God Conscious life. For this purpose the Bible was created. It is a compendium of writings that were surely written with Divine guidance. Divine guidance, yes. But, it is not the Word of God. The opening lines of the Gospel of John are fairly clear about this. The Bible did not exist until many decades, even centuries, after he had penned, "In the Beginning was the Word ..." KGC
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kgc
Springfield, IL
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Think Again wrote: KGC continued: <quoted text> Briefly, the third heaven that Paul describes in 2 Corinthians has to do with his conversion on the Damascus road. Paul describes conceptually what many Jews of his day thought of Heaven being in layers sort of like an onion. It is the way that the Jews built their temples (Solomon’s Temple) to reflect the holiest of places. Since Paul saw the risen Christ he conceptually describes himself as going to the third Heaven or the most holy place. <quoted text> Many slaves in Biblical times were servants who may have sold themselves into “slavery” to work off debt. Many of these people were well taken care of although some were not. Many professional people (doctors and lawyers) were also sold into slavery to pay off debt. The Bible does however condemn “man stealing” which is what occurred during the slave trade in the 1600 – 1800’s. The Gospel is about changing hearts not political or socio-economic circumstances. Even Jesus when questioned about paying taxes said,“Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s. As you know most of the Jews of his day expected the Messiah to be like King David and overthrow the Roman Empire. Certainly Jesus could have done that with one word but he was concerned about changing hearts and eternal salvation. For a more Biblically based discussion of the differences of “slavery” in the two eras, I suggest you read “A Condensed Anti-Slavery Bible Argument; By a Citizen of Virginia:” by George Bourne. It can be found here: http://docsouth.unc.edu/church/bourne/bourne.... Exodus 21: 16 (KJV) “And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.” Hogwash, TA! But, even if this explanation of St. Paul's cryptic reference was as you say - which it is not - there is no explanation of any sort given in the Bible about this passage! Take your blinders off, TA! And the quote from Exodus about stealing a man misses the entire point! Slaves were personal property in times of the New Testament as well as the Old. TA, Slavery existed here in the United States legally until the Emancipation Proclamation. You are trying to make excuses. Simply understand. The Bible is not the Word of God - written or otherwise. If you get this far, you are ready to ask yourself the question, "What is the Word of God?" KGC
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Think Again
Clinton, NC
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KGC, KGC said:“You are trying to make excuses. Simply understand. The Bible is not the Word of God - written or otherwise. If you get this far, you are ready to ask yourself the question, "What is the Word of God?" I find it very disheartening that you continually and emphatically minimize God’s Word as recorded in the Bible. That is the very tactic that satan used in the garden and continues to use today.“Did God say?” When you study the NT and see the value that Jesus Himself put on scripture. Jesus debated scripture with the Pharisees and Sadducees all the time. He corrected his own disciples using scripture. Luke 24:25-27 (NIV)“He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.” Jesus put more value on scripture than he did on the miracles he performed. Luke 16:31 (NIV)“But he said to him,‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” He actually quoted it in overthrowing Satan! The O.T. Scriptures were the arbiter in every dispute. Matthew 4:4 (NIV)“Jesus answered, "It is written:'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
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Think Again
Clinton, NC
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KGC Continued He quoted Scripture as the basis for his own teaching. His ethics were the same as what we find already written in Scripture. Luke 18:20 (NIV)“You know the commandments:'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.” He not only was not jealous of the attention men paid to scripture he reviled them for their ignorance of it. Matthew 22:29 (NIV)“Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.” He made provision for the New Testament by sending the Holy Spirit. Again revelation is closed as is the position of Apostle. John 16:12-14 (NIV) "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. Jesus himself lived according to scripture. He Himself is the Word of God. All the words from His lips were the Word of God. If He had desired, He could have written a new set of rules and they would have been the Word of God. But, He did not. He followed without question the Bible already penned by men. John 20:30-31 (NIV “Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
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Think Again
Clinton, NC
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KGC Continued Paul said this concerning the Word of God. 1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NIV)“And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe." You see KGC, I am very suspicious of those who want to set aside the Word of God to justify their own desires, thoughts, needs or experiences. It all goes back to the garden.“Did God say?” Mark 7:9 (NIV)“And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!” KGC, Did God say? And how do you know without Holy Scripture?
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kgc
Springfield, IL
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Think Again wrote: KGC Continued
Paul said this concerning the Word of God.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NIV)“And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe."
You see KGC, I am very suspicious of those who want to set aside the Word of God to justify their own desires, thoughts, needs or experiences. It all goes back to the garden.“Did God say?”
Mark 7:9 (NIV)“And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!”
KGC, Did God say? And how do you know without Holy Scripture? TA, In all that you have written and posted here, of late, you managed to hit the nail on the head only once. You wrote that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. All scripture is important. In fact, there were many treatises, essays, gospels, letters and other writings, including apocrypha, that in one way or another were inspired and whose authors were filled with the Holy Spirit. There is not disputing their importance. But, it is beneath you to accuse your fellow Christians of delivering Satan's message. In so doing, YOU deliver Satan's message. No. I'll stick by my original point which your quote above confirms. You have yet to ask the single most important question of yourself and by your responses above, it appears that it will be some time before you feel the need to ask it. KGC
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Think Again
Clinton, NC
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kgc wrote: <quoted text>
TA,
In all that you have written and posted here, of late, you managed to hit the nail on the head only once.
You wrote that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
All scripture is important. In fact, there were many treatises, essays, gospels, letters and other writings, including apocrypha, that in one way or another were inspired and whose authors were filled with the Holy Spirit. There is not disputing their importance.
But, it is beneath you to accuse your fellow Christians of delivering Satan's message. In so doing, YOU deliver Satan's message.
No. I'll stick by my original point which your quote above confirms. You have yet to ask the single most important question of yourself and by your responses above, it appears that it will be some time before you feel the need to ask it.
KGC The question has been asked and answered KGC. Scripture is the Word of God. I assume you are Episcopalian. What responsive line is in the BCP after the lectionary is read? I will help you. It is either: "The Word of the Lord," or "The Word of God for the people of God." Evidently, most Anglicans/Episcopalians feel that scripture is the Word of God.
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kgc
Springfield, IL
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Think Again wrote: <quoted text>
The question has been asked and answered KGC. Scripture is the Word of God.
I assume you are Episcopalian. What responsive line is in the BCP after the lectionary is read?
I will help you. It is either: "The Word of the Lord," or "The Word of God for the people of God."
Evidently, most Anglicans/Episcopalians feel that scripture is the Word of God. TA, In the Beginning was the Word, and the Wordwas with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being... And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth. TA, The Bible is a thing. Words, letters and concepts and creeds and songs and sayings and parables and things said in every language and repeated in Sunday morning rituals in every Episcopal, Orthodox, Roman, Syrian, Nazarene, Baptist and Christian church in the land, no matter how perfectly spoken or thought or reverently repeated - all are things. Divinely inspired, humbly offerred, enthusiastically given, all are things. You figure it out. KGC
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