A Prayer for Hetman Mazepa

I suppose, as President of a country in which over 40% of its Christian believers are affiliated with the Russian Orthodox Church, Yushchenko is doing the "right" thing. Besides, if he intends to run for a second term in 2 years, it never hurts to stay on good terms with all special interests.

However, I never understood what possible difference it could make whether the ROC removes or maintains the "anathema" against Ivan Mazepa. The solution is to educate the population so that they know their history better. Once they do, they, themselves, will laugh anathema-spouting clerics out of town.

Alexei 2 ,is a living caricature of the 'Greater Russian 'pomposity still prevalent in many Russified Ukrainians . One thousand years ago years ago, Moscow was a wagon wheel trail in the bog , occupied by people that wore skins and lived in tents . Kiev was a renowned European capital at that time with a civilized population . As usual ,the Russians have it backwards. Russia can not re write that history ,unfortunately for them .

Bs Buster wrote:

Alexei 2 ,is a living caricature of the 'Greater Russian 'pomposity still prevalent in many Russified Ukrainians . One thousand years ago years ago, Moscow was a wagon wheel trail in the bog , occupied by people that wore skins and lived in tents . Kiev was a renowned European capital at that time with a civilized population . As usual ,the Russians have it backwards. Russia can not re write that history ,unfortunately for them .

You got that right. It's bad enough to steal a country, its people, and its resources....that's been done by all sort of conquerors and empires of the past. But Russia must be the first test case of what happens when you steal another people's identity and past.

Is it just me, am I missing something?

A Orthodox Patriarch of all Russia telling the President of Ukraine that his Ukrainian people should celebrate their own defeat at the hands of the Russian army?

Wholly cow. Thats like the pope endorsing the Roman conquest of Asia or Egypt? Enslaving people against their will.

Yush should have explained Ukraine's position that this battle was about freedom from Muscovy and was not a religious war. Hetman were strong supporters of orthodoxy.

This is living proof that the Russian Orthodox church has got to go. I hope that this article make a wide Ukrainian distribution.

Orthodox Ukrainians should be following the direction only of Metroppolitan Filaret ,head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in any event . If they want to listen to Alexei 2 ( Alexei 1 must be mini -me (aka PUTIN) , I suggest a one way ticket to Moscow.

Stefan wrote:

Is it just me, am I missing something?
A Orthodox Patriarch of all Russia telling the President of Ukraine that his Ukrainian people should celebrate their own defeat at the hands of the Russian army?
Wholly cow. Thats like the pope endorsing the Roman conquest of Asia or Egypt? Enslaving people against their will.
Yush should have explained Ukraine's position that this battle was about freedom from Muscovy and was not a religious war. Hetman were strong supporters of orthodoxy.
This is living proof that the Russian Orthodox church has got to go. I hope that this article make a wide Ukrainian distribution.

I swear that Yushchenko is some sort of Russian double agent at times . His Sphinx - like silence in the face of overt Russian Chauvinism is inexplicable and unforgive able.

I'm not surprised. Since the tsars the patriarch has been a puppet of the government. Change of government only changed the person to whom the patriarch reports to.
As for Yush, I just don't like him anymore. I understand political mediation and all that, but hes too buddy buddy with Putin. Not to mention his excursions meeting every single president in the western world. I'm sorry Yush, but "congratulations you're president" didn't mean "you win a free tourist trip across Europe".

For Magyars in Podkarpatska Rus' this Mazepa vs. Moscow thing is sort of opaque. We would just like to survive as who we are without being crushed by Kyiv or Moscow.

Ukraine must cease paying homage to the Moscow Russian chauvinists, foremost of which is the Russian Orthodox Church's leadership.

Ukraine should start celebrating its history, religion and culture entirely separately from Russia.

All "joint" celebrations have and will continue to backfire on Ukraine.

Ukrainian politicians should stop reinforcing the "common Kyievan Rus history" and "intertwined destinies" myths.

Ukraine's leaders should stop going to Moscow as vassals, but show some dignity and begin asserting Ukraine's sovereignty.

Swandiver wrote:

Ukraine must cease paying homage to the Moscow Russian chauvinists, foremost of which is the Russian Orthodox Church's leadership.
Ukraine should start celebrating its history, religion and culture entirely separately from Russia.
All "joint" celebrations have and will continue to backfire on Ukraine.
Ukrainian politicians should stop reinforcing the "common Kyievan Rus history" and "intertwined destinies" myths.
Ukraine's leaders should stop going to Moscow as vassals, but show some dignity and begin asserting Ukraine's sovereignty.

They may. But firstly Crimea and Donetsk areas should be given back to Russia.

Has the Crimea ever really and rightfully "belonged" to Russia?

Or has the Don Basin ever really and rightfully "belonged" to Russia?

Do Russia's thefts justify anything?

Ukraine must cease paying homage to the Russia's neofascist and ultrachauvinists.

Ukraine should start celebrating its history, religion and culture entirely separately from Russia.

All "joint" celebrations with Russia have backfired, and will continue to backfire on Ukraine.

Ukrainian politicians should stop reinforcing the "common Kyievan Rus history" and "intertwined destinies" myths.

Ukraine's leaders should stop going to Moscow as vassals, but show some dignity and begin asserting Ukraine's sovereignty.

What other nation is expected to celebrate events jointly with its former master and oppressor?

Ukrainians need to start commemorating and celebrating their own milestones and achievements the way other nations do.

Swandiver wrote:

Has the Crimea ever really and rightfully "belonged" to Russia?
Or has the Don Basin ever really and rightfully "belonged" to Russia?
Do Russia's thefts justify anything?
Ukraine must cease paying homage to the Russia's neofascist and ultrachauvinists.
Ukraine should start celebrating its history, religion and culture entirely separately from Russia.
All "joint" celebrations with Russia have backfired, and will continue to backfire on Ukraine.
Ukrainian politicians should stop reinforcing the "common Kyievan Rus history" and "intertwined destinies" myths.
Ukraine's leaders should stop going to Moscow as vassals, but show some dignity and begin asserting Ukraine's sovereignty.
What other nation is expected to celebrate events jointly with its former master and oppressor?
Ukrainians need to start commemorating and celebrating their own milestones and achievements the way other nations do.

Yes it always belonged to Russia.
You forget that the thing like "Ukraine" never existed as a country.
Ukraine was Under Poland or Ukraine was under Russia...

Tertium Non Datur.

Anyway if Ukrainians want their own country they should sacrafice those lands.
People of those lands hardly ever speak Ukrainian.

""Ukrainians need to start commemorating and celebrating their own milestones and achievements the way other nations do.""

Thats the point every achievement of people culturally belonging to Ukrainians Belongs to Russian culture.
Remember Khruchev, he is ukrainian actually but considered Russian.
Remember Gogol who never wrote a thing in Ukrainian.

Mr Because wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes it always belonged to Russia.
You forget that the thing like "Ukraine" never existed as a country.
Ukraine was Under Poland or Ukraine was under Russia...
Tertium Non Datur.
Anyway if Ukrainians want their own country they should sacrafice those lands.
People of those lands hardly ever speak Ukrainian.

You judge a peoples right to an independent country soley on the language they speak. Would you apply the same principle to the republics within Russia?

I make judjements on people living in Ukraine and Supporting Russia.
Those are people who live in Crimea and Donetsk.
They want to be a part of Russian or they want at least diplomatic relations allowing them to speak Russian and visit Russia.
I dont care about processes in Ukraine untill their rights are opposed and our fleet in Crimea is removing.
Anywhay Crimea is a part of Russia. Khruchev was wrong giving it to Ukraine.

The Russian chauvinist idea nor being promulgated that Khrushchev was Ukrainian is absurd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushche...

The idea that Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine is equally absurd.

The majority of Crimeans voted for Ukraine's independence.

Refardless of racist and supremacist Russian chauvinist fantasies and delusions, Ukraine must cease paying homage to the Russia's neofascist and ultrachauvinists.

Ukraine should start celebrating its history, religion and culture entirely separately from Russia.

All "joint" celebrations with Russia have backfired, and will continue to backfire on Ukraine.

Ukrainian politicians should stop reinforcing the "common Kyievan Rus history" and "intertwined destinies" myths.

Ukraine's leaders should stop going to Moscow as vassals, but show some dignity and begin asserting Ukraine's sovereignty.

What other nation is expected to celebrate events jointly with its former master and oppressor?

Ukrainians need to start commemorating and celebrating their own milestones and achievements the way other nations do.

Do Ireland and England jointly commemorate everything?

Does the USA and England commemorate jointly everything?

Does Mexico jointly commemorate anything with Spain?

Why would Ukraine and Russia jointly commemorate anything?

Russia can commemorate its own milestones in Russia.

Ukraine can celebrate and commemorate its own events and milestones in Ukraine.

To the best of my knowledge, apart from the Kievan Rus (which may be perceived as a common heritage with Russia), the present-day Ukraine has just as much Western cultural influence originating from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which (at a time) spread as far as Smolensk and Witebsk.

Mr Because wrote:

Khruchev was wrong giving it to Ukraine.

How about Stalin deporting the Crimean Tatars?

I think this is in line with this - http://www.topix.com/forum/world/ukraine/TRT3...

The muscovites have stolen another peoples name, history and insignias, i.e. the Ukrainians. That sometimes happens with noble families, an imposter tries to take the same family name and exploit it - That is what muscovy has done with Kyiv Rus.

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/ukraine/TRT3...

Mr Because - Mr no facts and just more statements that mean nothing. Crimea and Donetsk are parts of Ukraine. First it was Crimesa now you add Donetsk. How much more do you want. Let me see maybe Lviv. Kiev. All the villages. All of Ukraine. You live in Moscow not Crimea or Donestk. Also the people that live there have Ukrainian passports not Russian so they are not Russian citizens.

HMMMM maybe America should give all of Russians American passports. HMMMMM not a bad idea.