Ukrainian war crimes

Why Ukrainians are exempt from responsibility?-

from wikipedia: "The following day, July 11, 1943, is regarded as one of the bloodiest days of the massacres, with many reports of UPA units marching from village to village, killing Polish civilians. On that day, UPA units surrounded and attacked Polish villages and settlements located in three counties – Kowel, Horochow, and Włodzimierz Wołyński. The events began at 3:00am, with the Poles having no chance to escape. After the massacres, the Polish villages were burned to the ground. According to those few who survived, the action had been carefully prepared; a few days before the massacres there had been several meetings in Ukrainian villages, during which UPA members told the villagers that the slaughter of all Poles was necessary.[53] Within a few days an unspecified number of Polish villages were completely destroyed and their populations murdered. In the Polish village of Gurow, out of 480 inhabitants, only 70 survived; in the settlement of Orzeszyn, the UPA killed 306 out of 340 Poles; in the village of Sadowa out of 600 Polish inhabitants only 20 survived; in Zagaje out of 350 Poles only a few survived. In August 1943, the Polish village of Gaj (near Kovel) was burned and some 600 people massacred. In September in the village of Wola Ostrowiecka 529 people were killed, including 220 children under 14, and 438 people were killed, including 246 children, in Ostrowki. In September 1992 exhumations were carried out in these villages, confirming the number of dead.[53]

The atrocities were perpetrated with utmost cruelty. The victims, regardless of their age or gender, were routinely tortured to death. Norman Davies in No Simple Victory gives a short, but shocking description of the massacres. He writes: "Villages were torched. Roman Catholic priests were axed or crucified. Churches were burned with all their parishioners. Isolated farms were attacked by gangs carrying pitchforks and kitchen knives. Throats were cut. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were cut in two. Men were ambushed in the field and led away. The perpetrators could not determine the province's future. But at least they could determine that it would be a future without Poles."[54] Timothy Snyder describes the murders in the following way: "Ukrainian partisans burned homes, shot or forced back inside those who tried to flee, and used sickles and pitchforks to kill those they captured outside. In some cases, beheaded, crucified, dismembered, or disembowelled bodies were displayed, in order to encourage remaining Poles to flee".[55] Similar account has been presented by Niall Ferguson, who wrote: Whole villages were wiped out, men beaten to death, women raped and mutilated, babies bayoneted.[56] Ukrainian historian Yuryi Kirichuk from Lviv described the conflict as similar to the medieval rebellions.[57

your helicopter wrote:

Why Ukrainians are exempt from responsibility?-
from wikipedia: "The following day, July 11, 1943, is regarded as one of the bloodiest days of the massacres, with many reports of UPA units marching from village to village, killing Polish civilians. On that day, UPA units surrounded and attacked Polish villages and settlements located in three counties – Kowel, Horochow, and Włodzimierz Wołyński. The events began at 3:00am, with the Poles having no chance to escape. After the massacres, the Polish villages were burned to the ground. According to those few who survived, the action had been carefully prepared; a few days before the massacres there had been several meetings in Ukrainian villages, during which UPA members told the villagers that the slaughter of all Poles was necessary.[53] Within a few days an unspecified number of Polish villages were completely destroyed and their populations murdered. In the Polish village of Gurow, out of 480 inhabitants, only 70 survived; in the settlement of Orzeszyn, the UPA killed 306 out of 340 Poles; in the village of Sadowa out of 600 Polish inhabitants only 20 survived; in Zagaje out of 350 Poles only a few survived. In August 1943, the Polish village of Gaj (near Kovel) was burned and some 600 people massacred. In September in the village of Wola Ostrowiecka 529 people were killed, including 220 children under 14, and 438 people were killed, including 246 children, in Ostrowki. In September 1992 exhumations were carried out in these villages, confirming the number of dead.[53]
The atrocities were perpetrated with utmost cruelty. The victims, regardless of their age or gender, were routinely tortured to death. Norman Davies in No Simple Victory gives a short, but shocking description of the massacres. He writes: "Villages were torched. Roman Catholic priests were axed or crucified. Churches were burned with all their parishioners. Isolated farms were attacked by gangs carrying pitchforks and kitchen knives. Throats were cut. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were cut in two. Men were ambushed in the field and led away. The perpetrators could not determine the province's future. But at least they could determine that it would be a future without Poles."[54] Timothy Snyder describes the murders in the following way: "Ukrainian partisans burned homes, shot or forced back inside those who tried to flee, and used sickles and pitchforks to kill those they captured outside. In some cases, beheaded, crucified, dismembered, or disembowelled bodies were displayed, in order to encourage remaining Poles to flee".[55] Similar account has been presented by Niall Ferguson, who wrote: Whole villages were wiped out, men beaten to death, women raped and mutilated, babies bayoneted.[56] Ukrainian historian Yuryi Kirichuk from Lviv described the conflict as similar to the medieval rebellions.[57

I agree that there were some brutal conflicts and the blaming can go on for ever and what on earth will this accomplish? Now before this western part of Ukraine was occupied by the Polish and I am sure that the Polish that took that territory also commited crimes. I am sure that a lot of Ukrainians were very angry at the Polish. Perhaps this was a way of getting even with the Polish. What has happened has happened. What really counts is that Ukraine and the Polish have learned to live in a friendly way and respect each other.

Glenn ivan wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree that there were some brutal conflicts and the blaming can go on for ever and what on earth will this accomplish? Now before this western part of Ukraine was occupied by the Polish and I am sure that the Polish that took that territory also commited crimes. I am sure that a lot of Ukrainians were very angry at the Polish. Perhaps this was a way of getting even with the Polish. What has happened has happened. What really counts is that Ukraine and the Polish have learned to live in a friendly way and respect each other.

I think what unites them now is so called viktim card which both nations try to play for the West - they both pretend to be viktims of the third nation (we know what we are speaking about) and blame all their own crimes for that third nation, despite the fact that they were participants in everything that mentioned third nation did in the world.Their own crimes are in no way less evil then those crimes which they say were commited against them....The only way to really forgive or at least not to be hunted by the past (as you suggest) is to accept their own responsibility and to stop blame others and playing viktim card to the world.

It seems like the entire world is buying into the "Victim Mentality". The rallying cry is "It's not my fault, xxxxx made me do it." or "xxxxx did this terrible thing to me, make me feel better by sending money".
I am really getting tired of nobody having the guts to accept responsibility for their past actions.

American Observer wrote:

It seems like the entire world is buying into the "Victim Mentality". The rallying cry is "It's not my fault, xxxxx made me do it." or "xxxxx did this terrible thing to me, make me feel better by sending money".
I am really getting tired of nobody having the guts to accept responsibility for their past actions.

Agree 100%

tor wrote:

<quoted text>Agree 100%

Tor: I thought that I would never agree with you on anything. I was wrong. We are both on the same page on this one. Thanks for your support.
I was thinking primarily of individuals but I think it would also apply to nations. What do you think?

It apply to nations too...like while accusing USSR you should accuse all those who were there in USSR- Ukrainians the same way as Russians - if Ukrainians would prefer to play victim card and blame everything on Russia (like many of them do)- then Rusia will be in denial...Justice is justice if it is for all, if it is "picky" - it is not justice.

By the way Ukraine still occupies Polish Lviv (Lwow) which was given to them according to Molotov-Ribentrop Pact - isn't that interesting in itself?

Zaolsie wrote:

By the way Ukraine still occupies Polish Lviv (Lwow) which was given to them according to Molotov-Ribentrop Pact - isn't that interesting in itself?

And once again a professional victim waves the victim card around. YAWN

American Observer wrote:

<quoted text>
And once again a professional victim waves the victim card around. YAWN

Agreed again - both Ukrainians and Poles are professional "victims" - but I think the world starts to understand it and soon will stop take them seriously.

Zaolsie wrote:

By the way Ukraine still occupies Polish Lviv (Lwow) which was given to them according to Molotov-Ribentrop Pact - isn't that interesting in itself?

By the way, Lviv is back to being a Ukrainian city like it always should have been.

tor wrote:

<quoted text>Agreed again - both Ukrainians and Poles are professional "victims" - but I think the world starts to understand it and soon will stop take them seriously.

I must respectfully disagree. I have been to Poland and Ukraine and talked with many people. They admit that they were treated as victims but don't have time to worry about it. They are too busy trying to move forward with their lives. Don't let a few "victims" cloud your observations.

Obama: Remembrance of Holodomor in Ukraine will help prevent such tragedy in future
Yesterday at 12:35 | Interfax-Ukraine
U.S. President Barack Obama has said that the remembrance of Holodomor will help prevent such tragedy in the future.

On the Ukrainian Holodomor Remembrance Day, Ukrainian-Americans and all Americans will join together to commemorate these tragic events and to honor the many victims, Obama said in a statement published on the Web site of the White House.

"Seventy six years ago, millions of innocent Ukrainians – men, women, and children – starved to death as a result of the deliberate policies of the regime of Joseph Stalin," the statement reads.

The Ukrainian people suffered horribly during in 1932-1933 due to the Stalin regime's seizure of crops and farms across Ukraine, the U.S. president said.

In his words, remembering the victims of the man-made catastrophe of Holodomor provides us an opportunity to reflect upon the plight of all those who have suffered the consequences of extremism and tyranny around the world.

Comer wrote:

Obama: Remembrance of Holodomor in Ukraine will help prevent such tragedy in future
Yesterday at 12:35 | Interfax-Ukraine
U.S. President Barack Obama has said that the remembrance of Holodomor will help prevent such tragedy in the future.
On the Ukrainian Holodomor Remembrance Day, Ukrainian-Americans and all Americans will join together to commemorate these tragic events and to honor the many victims, Obama said in a statement published on the Web site of the White House.
"Seventy six years ago, millions of innocent Ukrainians – men, women, and children – starved to death as a result of the deliberate policies of the regime of Joseph Stalin," the statement reads.
The Ukrainian people suffered horribly during in 1932-1933 due to the Stalin regime's seizure of crops and farms across Ukraine, the U.S. president said.
In his words, remembering the victims of the man-made catastrophe of Holodomor provides us an opportunity to reflect upon the plight of all those who have suffered the consequences of extremism and tyranny around the world.

100% agree with Obama - he exactly blamed the tragedy on Stalin's regime, not on exclusively Russians like some Ukrainians (including Yushchenko) try to do...

Glenn ivan wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree that there were some brutal conflicts and the blaming can go on for ever and what on earth will this accomplish? Now before this western part of Ukraine was occupied by the Polish and I am sure that the Polish that took that territory also commited crimes. I am sure that a lot of Ukrainians were very angry at the Polish. Perhaps this was a way of getting even with the Polish. What has happened has happened. What really counts is that Ukraine and the Polish have learned to live in a friendly way and respect each other.

Getting even with Polish? Poles don't respect people like you who talk rubbish. Lwów was Polish city for the longest period of time and should belong to Poland.

American Observer wrote:

It seems like the entire world is buying into the "Victim Mentality". The rallying cry is "It's not my fault, xxxxx made me do it." or "xxxxx did this terrible thing to me, make me feel better by sending money".
I am really getting tired of nobody having the guts to accept responsibility for their past actions.

That is what Ukrainians usually do. Polish president apologised for akcja Wis&#322;a done by communist regime of Poland. It's Ukrainian turn to apologise for crimes they commited in XX century and stop crying how saint and poor they are.

Szafka wrote:

<quoted text>
That is what Ukrainians usually do. Polish president apologised for akcja Wis&#322;a done by communist regime of Poland. It's Ukrainian turn to apologise for crimes they commited in XX century and stop crying how saint and poor they are.

Before you start your yammer, have you ever considered if Ukraine occupied Poland. Did Ukraine take away the Polish land and the language. When Poland occupied Ukraine the Ukrainian people had to go to Polish schools and learn the Polish langauge. Terrible crimes were committed by BOTH sides. The best thing is for both countries to UNDERSTAND and RESPECT each other. I am sure that problems can be resolved through dialogue rather then force.

A person born in Lemburg in 1917 was an Austro Hungarian citizen. In 1919 the same person lived in Lwow and was a Polish citizen. In 1940, the same person lived in Lvov and was now a citzen of the USSR. In 1942 that person became a German citizen and lived in the ' General Gouvernment of the German Reich ' and he was a citizen of the German Reich. In 1944 that same person became a citizen of the USSR once again and then lived in Lvov. In 1991 that citizen lived in Lviv and was a Ukrainian citizen. And the Ukrainian person did this all by remaining in the very same house and the same city that he was born in ! Those clever Ukrainians !Ha Ha !

Amicus wrote:

A person born in Lemburg in 1917 was an Austro Hungarian citizen. In 1919 the same person lived in Lwow and was a Polish citizen. In 1940, the same person lived in Lvov and was now a citzen of the USSR. In 1942 that person became a German citizen and lived in the ' General Gouvernment of the German Reich ' and he was a citizen of the German Reich. In 1944 that same person became a citizen of the USSR once again and then lived in Lvov. In 1991 that citizen lived in Lviv and was a Ukrainian citizen. And the Ukrainian person did this all by remaining in the very same house and the same city that he was born in ! Those clever Ukrainians !Ha Ha !

I know what your saying! My father was Ukrainian, wrote in Polish and was the citizen of Austria!! It took me several years to figure what all this out!!!!

All in all victim ideology is sometimes even funny - like apologets of it in Ukraine sometimes say that they were viktims of Russians because Stalin ruled from Moscow...albeit after ww2 in his old age Stalin mostly lived at his dacha on lake Riza in Georgia and ruled from there - logics of victim ideology force us then to say that Ukrainians were viktims of Georgians after 1947 (especially that Stalin and his henchman Beria were both georgians)...The same like Obama rightly mentioned that Holodomor was a crime of Stalin's regime - in this case accusing Rusians in it would suggest that there was no Stalin's regime in Ukraine in 1930-s, which is in itself absurdity of the first order...in trying to prove smth. like that Yushchenko last year decided to publish the list of highest officials responsible for Holodomor - it became a scandal because of 25 names in the list - 23 were Ukrainians !- so the list was never published by Yushchenko, but info leacked to the press and TV - and there was a big scandal about it in Ukraine and a lot of jokes in Russia...The fact is that Stalin's elite was multiethnic and it never acted in the interests of that or another nationality, Russians never benefited from Stalin's policy, Stalin acted in the intersts of his fanatic fixasion of spreading communism all over the world, that's the fact....as for those who benefited from Soviet policy - maybe only Central Asian Soviet "-stans" (I have already wrote about it on another forum)- there in Central Asia in 1920-s socio-economic conditions were equal in Uzbekistan, Kyrgizstan, Turkmenia, Tajikistan...and Afganistan - there was actually no border and many families lived across both sides of the "border" - in Afganistan and here in Soviet "-stans",- the longevity in the region was around 45 years those times in 1920-s...then the border was closed and by 1979 longevity in Soviet "-stans" became 69 years (data of WHO and UN), but in independant Afganistan - still the same 45 years...and the starting conditions in 1920-s were the same... It shows that communism may work only for very primitive underdeveloped societies where it really can bring some limited improvement of life conditions, but in industrialised world it only hamper development - the example of Eastern Europe shows it...So the real evil in history of both Poland and Ukraine and Russia was communist ideology, not ethnicity which some profesional "viktims' try to blame...