Political, religious battles loom between Ukraine, Russia over Orthodox baptism celebration

Slowly, carefully, and methodically, strong Russian influence in Ukraine is dropping.

We can see this:

Politically (Independent elections)

Religiously (Split in church)

Socially (Ukrainian language films, books, magazines, ect)

Culturally (Historical celebration of events)

Soon all that is and was Russian will be but a footnote at the bottom of history books, under the chapter; Occupation Years.

Ukrainians and Russians will always remain close friends, just two separate and distinct friends. Sometimes they will play together and sometimes they will play with other friends. Right now Ukraine wants to play with her new European friends as they play nice. Once Russia decides to play nice, Ukraine will again play with her.

Ukraine is an independent state and like England, Bulgaria or Georgia so it would be normal for it to have its own church. There is nothing strange in that --or in aspiring to that.

In any case, Ukraine's governmental and national affairs should also be strictly secular.

None sense , Ukrian is a country for sale to the highest bider, and open for bussiness and bussiness with cash to deposite in the name of the new quity sexy leaders, the world know that , Joining NATO saying it all.
OK Bulshidesky kharashovski have some wisky.

Aary wallah , Ukrian had a million sldiers fighting on Hitlers side, a parzite on the back of Russia.

Ukrian ,Rumania , and other thru them in china , there will be still 78 % vacancy in their hotel ,motel.
Now they want to be a Parazite on America, beside when we gona get Krimia Island ., my uncle wife is from Tataristan, his wife wants Kremia now, DO NOT MAKE UNCLE ALIMARDAN KHAN ANGRY , a warning to all.
SHIRO Berader aafarin !

Swandiver wrote:

Ukraine is an independent state and like England, Bulgaria or Georgia so it would be normal for it to have its own church. There is nothing strange in that --or in aspiring to that.
In any case, Ukraine's governmental and national affairs should also be strictly secular.

I agree that the government should stay out of it.

However, why shouldn't the existing structure remain?

Do you see the Ecumenical Patriarch giving up the lands of North America to allow us to have our own Patriarch? No. Do you see the Ecumenical Patriarch give up western Europe? No. Estonia? No. Asia? No.

The Patriarch of Alexandria is the pope of all of Africa, except where the territory of the continent is under another Patriarch. Should that be broken into 20 or thirty patriarchates?

This is not normal. It puts nationalism ahead of the Church. It is not the way the Church was always administered.

And yes, I do have both Ukrainian blood and Russian blood.

I also remember when the current "patriarch of Kiev" ranted against using Ukrainian in the Church. Maybe his wife was against it, who knows. Why the folks there look to him for any guidance is beyond me.

How terribly silly. To quote from the New Testament "They swallow a camel and strain at a gnat". I think too many of them have forgotten why they are there in the first place. All religions are filled with arguments and splits resulting in subgroups such as:
1) Jews: Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Ultra-orthodox
2) Islam: Sunni, Shiite and whatever else
3) Christian too many sub groups to even count much less name. A few are:
Roman Catholic, Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox (2 or three subgroups of this), Greek Catholic, Lutheren (3 sub groups) Baptists (2 mainsubs), Methodists, Amish ....etc.

Each of them is sure that they have the whole "Truth". They all forget one major fact: They worship the same one God. Too many forget that they are here to serve God, not to gain power. The entire argument is, in my mind, totally silly and unnecessary.
Most of the groups, although diagreeing with each other in some degree manage to work together. An example of this is the action of various Chaplains in the military during war. Each will gladly provide service for members of other faiths. My father, who was a Baptist Minister), had, before his death, Taken Confession for a Catholic man who lived at the same retirement home and also prayed with a Jewish man at the home who was ill when the Rabbi was not available. If more ministers, priests, etc. kept in mind who they were serving and why instead of playing political power games thse kind of problems would not arise.
Thank you for listening. I will now get off of my "soap box".

Bear wrote:

How terribly silly. To quote from the New Testament "They swallow a camel and strain at a gnat". I think too many of them have forgotten why they are there in the first place. All religions are filled with arguments and splits resulting in subgroups such as:
1) Jews: Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Ultra-orthodox
2) Islam: Sunni, Shiite and whatever else
3) Christian too many sub groups to even count much less name. A few are:
Roman Catholic, Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox (2 or three subgroups of this), Greek Catholic, Lutheren (3 sub groups) Baptists (2 mainsubs), Methodists, Amish ....etc.
Each of them is sure that they have the whole "Truth". They all forget one major fact: They worship the same one God. Too many forget that they are here to serve God, not to gain power. The entire argument is, in my mind, totally silly and unnecessary.
Most of the groups, although diagreeing with each other in some degree manage to work together. An example of this is the action of various Chaplains in the military during war. Each will gladly provide service for members of other faiths. My father, who was a Baptist Minister), had, before his death, Taken Confession for a Catholic man who lived at the same retirement home and also prayed with a Jewish man at the home who was ill when the Rabbi was not available. If more ministers, priests, etc. kept in mind who they were serving and why instead of playing political power games thse kind of problems would not arise.
Thank you for listening. I will now get off of my "soap box".

Right on Bear!!
Thank you for this post. Thank you for reminding people that we all pray to the same G-d!
Here's another one of my stories about my visit to Kiev... My aunt took me to see Philaret, saying he's the hope of the Ukrainian orthodox Church. He seemed like an innocuous enough former KGB operative, seemed actually sincere!
So, I get back to San Francisco, and meet and start talking to a nice young Hieromonk, who turns out grew up two houses down the street from me, in Kiev... We start talking about the city we both love, all the changes etc.... Until I say "yeah, my aunt took me to meet Philaret." At which point the Hieromonk turns white as a ghost and scream "Anathema, anathema!!" abandons the tea I bought him and runs away!!!
True story... Sad, but true!
[I had to change my screen name, but I think you'll all know who it is!]

I support Russia against these Americans.
Not only Ukraine, but also Turkey has to join Russia and should take position versus Yankees...

Being Western won't bring anything to Ukraine, just contrary, they'll spend what Western European countries spend for oil, gas,...

Be with Russia, and enjoy its oil and gas at good price...

Young Turk wrote:

I support Russia against these Americans.
Not only Ukraine, but also Turkey has to join Russia and should take position versus Yankees...
Being Western won't bring anything to Ukraine, just contrary, they'll spend what Western European countries spend for oil, gas,...
Be with Russia, and enjoy its oil and gas at good price...

Its not worth selling your soul to the devil for oil and gas. Being true to ones heart is more important to living a long and happy life, than how much one spends on gas and oil.

A single Ukrainian Orthodox Church is apparently a very good idea....

25-07-2008 16:45

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I says it is a great honor for him to visit Ukraine and Kyiv

He said this on his arrival in the Boryspil Airport addressing participants in the ceremonial meeting. According to him, a delegation of the Ecumenical Patriarch arrived in Ukraine as a bearer of a word of the maternal church of Christ.

Bartholomew I emphasized that he arrived in Ukraine to commemorate martyrs of evil times, to incline the head to Holodomor victims.

Another mission is to facilitate peace and integration of Ukraine's Orthodox churches into a single one.

"We have arrived there to pray with you for consolidation of all Ukraine's Orthodox churches into a single one - the church of your people, your country," Bartholomew I said.

Swandiver wrote:

A single Ukrainian Orthodox Church is apparently a very good idea....
25-07-2008 16:45
Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I says it is a great honor for him to visit Ukraine and Kyiv
He said this on his arrival in the Boryspil Airport addressing participants in the ceremonial meeting. According to him, a delegation of the Ecumenical Patriarch arrived in Ukraine as a bearer of a word of the maternal church of Christ.
Bartholomew I emphasized that he arrived in Ukraine to commemorate martyrs of evil times, to incline the head to Holodomor victims.
Another mission is to facilitate peace and integration of Ukraine's Orthodox churches into a single one.
"We have arrived there to pray with you for consolidation of all Ukraine's Orthodox churches into a single one - the church of your people, your country," Bartholomew I said.

Maybe for Bart.

Not for anyone else.

Gentlelmen:
On this thread I have been promoting the idea that different branches of religion, despite their differences, could and should work together. Some agreed with me, other took the opposite tact.
Today I not only saw that it could happen, I saw it happen.
On a two hour telecast from Kiev there was a ceremony doing three things. 1) Celebrating the 1020th anniversary of Prince Vladimir's bringing Christianity to Ukraine, 2) Dedicating the recently restored Consecrated Gates in St. Sohpia's which had been cut up for the Gold contained in them during the Soviet Era, 3) Honoring those, both Ukrainian and Russian, who perished in the Holodomor. It was a marvelous ceremony.
What really impressed me that, along with Patriarch Bartholomw I of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, there were representatives (archbishop or higher) of all the various Orthodox Churches and all took part. I even saw one Roman catholic (noticable by his red skull cap and collar) among the other clerics.
After the ceremonies at St. Sophia's all involved, including President Yuschenko, walked to St. Michael's square--- walked mind you; no armored glass vehicles here. At St. Michael's Yushenko, his wife, the speaker of the Rada, and all the representatives from the various branches of the church placed memorative candles at the Holodomar memorial. The cremony was concluded by a prayer for the souls of the victims of the Holodomar which was given by Patriarch Bartholomew.
It was a very good and moving ceremony. The thing that I want to point out is that all the branches of Orthodoxy, no matter their differences, came together and worked together. It can be done. NOw if it can be continued and expapnded into non-Orthodox religions also...
Oh incidentally, Yushenko announced that he had signed a bill making 28 July a national holiday commemorating the coming of Christianity to Ukraine.

testing

Bear wrote:

Gentlelmen:
On this thread I have been promoting the idea that different branches of religion, despite their differences, could and should work together. Some agreed with me, other took the opposite tact.
Today I not only saw that it could happen, I saw it happen.
On a two hour telecast from Kiev there was a ceremony doing three things. 1) Celebrating the 1020th anniversary of Prince Vladimir's bringing Christianity to Ukraine, 2) Dedicating the recently restored Consecrated Gates in St. Sohpia's which had been cut up for the Gold contained in them during the Soviet Era, 3) Honoring those, both Ukrainian and Russian, who perished in the Holodomor. It was a marvelous ceremony.
What really impressed me that, along with Patriarch Bartholomw I of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, there were representatives (archbishop or higher) of all the various Orthodox Churches and all took part. I even saw one Roman catholic (noticable by his red skull cap and collar) among the other clerics.
After the ceremonies at St. Sophia's all involved, including President Yuschenko, walked to St. Michael's square--- walked mind you; no armored glass vehicles here. At St. Michael's Yushenko, his wife, the speaker of the Rada, and all the representatives from the various branches of the church placed memorative candles at the Holodomar memorial. The cremony was concluded by a prayer for the souls of the victims of the Holodomar which was given by Patriarch Bartholomew.
It was a very good and moving ceremony. The thing that I want to point out is that all the branches of Orthodoxy, no matter their differences, came together and worked together. It can be done. NOw if it can be continued and expapnded into non-Orthodox religions also...
Oh incidentally, Yushenko announced that he had signed a bill making 28 July a national holiday commemorating the coming of Christianity to Ukraine.

I for one want things worked out.

But much of this is nationalism and that is contrary to the teachings of the Church.

St. Vladimir brought Christianity to Rus. Not anywhere else, not Ukraine, not Russia but Rus.

What is now Ukraine is the canonical territory of the Patriarch of Moscow. Canonical territory does not follow national lines or boarders.

The Church is not divided. The so called Patriarch of Kiev, the deposed KGB agent is a false bishop leading a false Church. The other group is the remnants from the last "patriarch of Kiev" who refused to go with the Ukrainian Church in Bound Brook NJ (near me) and be under the Patriarch of Constantinople. To suggest that those two along with the Church within the Patriarch of Moscow are the same is no different than saying that Baptists and the Orthodox are the same.

Yes, those who call themselves Orthodox and who are outside of the Church in Ukraine should repent and come back to the Church. They should not be rewarded with their own "church" controlled by Constantinople. We did that and we broke with that many centuries ago.

Seeing the Roman Catholic bishop or whatever there doesn't surprise me. They are enjoying watching the Orthodox fight amongst themselves since Rome is looking to pick up the pieces. They have been the source of this nationalism. And it looks like a weakened Orthodox Church will be what we get.

These next couple of days will be telling. Will it be the end of Orthodoxy in Ukraine may be decided sooner than we think.

John from NJ wrote:

<quoted text>
I for one want things worked out.
But much of this is nationalism and that is contrary to the teachings of the Church.
St. Vladimir brought Christianity to Rus. Not anywhere else, not Ukraine, not Russia but Rus.
What is now Ukraine is the canonical territory of the Patriarch of Moscow. Canonical territory does not follow national lines or boarders.
The Church is not divided. The so called Patriarch of Kiev, the deposed KGB agent is a false bishop leading a false Church. The other group is the remnants from the last "patriarch of Kiev" who refused to go with the Ukrainian Church in Bound Brook NJ (near me) and be under the Patriarch of Constantinople. To suggest that those two along with the Church within the Patriarch of Moscow are the same is no different than saying that Baptists and the Orthodox are the same.
Yes, those who call themselves Orthodox and who are outside of the Church in Ukraine should repent and come back to the Church. They should not be rewarded with their own "church" controlled by Constantinople. We did that and we broke with that many centuries ago.
Seeing the Roman Catholic bishop or whatever there doesn't surprise me. They are enjoying watching the Orthodox fight amongst themselves since Rome is looking to pick up the pieces. They have been the source of this nationalism. And it looks like a weakened Orthodox Church will be what we get.
These next couple of days will be telling. Will it be the end of Orthodoxy in Ukraine may be decided sooner than we think.

Thank you John. We can always count on you to find a dark side to everything. Like too many in the church you have found yourelf bogged down inlegalisms. Itis time for a fresh outlook.

None of this is inconsistent with Classical Orthodox Dogma. In rejecting the concept of Papal Infallability (and that the pope is G-d'S representative on earth )the Orthodox church has developed the concept of 'Autocephalus Churches 'within Orthodoxy , which is consistent with the Orthodox view that each individual must find his own path to G-D .There is nothing new here . It has been thus , in Orthodoxy since the great Schism a thousand years ago . Catholcism is centalized , Orthodoxy has been individualized and de-centralized. That is why the great schism occured a thousand years ago. Orthodoxy rejected the concept of Papal Encyclicals and Papal Bulls and allowed the individual Orthodox person to find his own way to G-D and redemption . This is what is occuring . It is perfectly in synch with the Orthodox world view. For example : there was a time when those that crossed themselves with two fingers would have been killed 'the Raskolniki ' , but those days were hundreds of years ago .

Bear wrote:

How terribly silly. To quote from the New Testament "They swallow a camel and strain at a gnat". I think too many of them have forgotten why they are there in the first place. All religions are filled with arguments and splits resulting in subgroups such as:
1) Jews: Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Ultra-orthodox
2) Islam: Sunni, Shiite and whatever else
3) Christian too many sub groups to even count much less name. A few are:
Roman Catholic, Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox (2 or three subgroups of this), Greek Catholic, Lutheren (3 sub groups) Baptists (2 mainsubs), Methodists, Amish ....etc.
Each of them is sure that they have the whole "Truth". They all forget one major fact: They worship the same one God. Too many forget that they are here to serve God, not to gain power. The entire argument is, in my mind, totally silly and unnecessary.
Most of the groups, although diagreeing with each other in some degree manage to work together. An example of this is the action of various Chaplains in the military during war. Each will gladly provide service for members of other faiths. My father, who was a Baptist Minister), had, before his death, Taken Confession for a Catholic man who lived at the same retirement home and also prayed with a Jewish man at the home who was ill when the Rabbi was not available. If more ministers, priests, etc. kept in mind who they were serving and why instead of playing political power games thse kind of problems would not arise.
Thank you for listening. I will now get off of my "soap box".

Very good brother Bear, I will try to address this better from another point of view, tonight. I fully agree with your thoughts on this, however, I am a little lost on the religions of Ukraine, but I want to learn more as I am a President of the United Church Outreach of Southern Columbia County, in Oregon. Our organization has brought together 15 different church's to act as one to help young people. Forest,

Bear wrote:

<quoted text>
Thank you John. We can always count on you to find a dark side to everything. Like too many in the church you have found yourelf bogged down inlegalisms. Itis time for a fresh outlook.

No, I am suffering with the "dark side" here in the states where we are sometimes knee deep in bishops in some cities and a lack of getting along and promoting Orthodoxy because one is not Greek or Russian or Ukrainian or Antiochian, etc.

Everyone wants to be their own.

No one wants to work for the good of the Church if it means giving up just a little.

You have one church structure in Ukraine. Why change it. To satisfy a small minority of people who are not in the Church? That isn't legalism, that is looking at what is best for the Church, and being consistent with the way the Church has always operated.

I want what is best for my family that are in Ukraine also.

The way the church has always operated? I'm now watching a movie called The Untouchables. A handful of men fighting against a system of corruption. They are not afraid of shaking things up because this is how the society always operated.

Just because there is a history to something does not mean it should not change. Ukraine is a young nation and many changes are yet to come as it develops. Cutting the religious shirt strings from Russia is a sign of maturity and defines the ambition of the country's independence.

Moscow's church is not being outlawed. Russia needs to accept that a Ukrainian church in Ukraine is justified.

Bear wrote:

Gentlelmen:
On this thread I have been promoting the idea that different branches of religion, despite their differences, could and should work together. Some agreed with me, other took the opposite tact.
Today I not only saw that it could happen, I saw it happen.
On a two hour telecast from Kiev there was a ceremony doing three things. 1) Celebrating the 1020th anniversary of Prince Vladimir's bringing Christianity to Ukraine, 2) Dedicating the recently restored Consecrated Gates in St. Sohpia's which had been cut up for the Gold contained in them during the Soviet Era, 3) Honoring those, both Ukrainian and Russian, who perished in the Holodomor. It was a marvelous ceremony.
What really impressed me that, along with Patriarch Bartholomw I of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, there were representatives (archbishop or higher) of all the various Orthodox Churches and all took part. I even saw one Roman catholic (noticable by his red skull cap and collar) among the other clerics.
After the ceremonies at St. Sophia's all involved, including President Yuschenko, walked to St. Michael's square--- walked mind you; no armored glass vehicles here. At St. Michael's Yushenko, his wife, the speaker of the Rada, and all the representatives from the various branches of the church placed memorative candles at the Holodomar memorial. The cremony was concluded by a prayer for the souls of the victims of the Holodomar which was given by Patriarch Bartholomew.
It was a very good and moving ceremony. The thing that I want to point out is that all the branches of Orthodoxy, no matter their differences, came together and worked together. It can be done. NOw if it can be continued and expapnded into non-Orthodox religions also...
Oh incidentally, Yushenko announced that he had signed a bill making 28 July a national holiday commemorating the coming of Christianity to Ukraine.

An excellent report.

Russia's chauvinism is deeply entrenched in the Russian Orthodox Church, and so long as Ukrianian Orthodox are subordinate to the Russian Orthodox Church, old colonial attitudes will persist.

Although spirituality and religiosity are to be encouraged in Ukraine, the Ukrainian government and state should be strictly secular, so that the playing field is absolutely level for every Ukrainian whether Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem, Pantheist, Theosophist, Jew Atheist, or any other creed.