Armenian Body In Switzerland Wary Of Talks With Turkey

Yea,they force us to attack Armenia.What option do we have when they continuously act like an enemy?We don't want to invade Armenia,but we can not forever give permission to enemies around us.
We have to finish the threats.

Serkan wrote:

It is not Turks who claim other countries's lands, be it former Ottoman Empire territories. On the contrary, you are the ones who still want Turkey's territories.
I personally have no desire over old Ottoman territories, nor do I have respect for Ottoman Empire's policy. I don't blame OE as it was just an empire and did not act any different than its kinds. But to me, Ottomans owned lands which we Turks never owned. It means nothing to me for Ottomans to rule Algeria, Lebonan, Syria, Serbia, or Romania and many more. The vast majority of people who lived on these lands were not Turkish, so, to me they were never really ours. So, it is better that they are not part of modern Turkey.
Armenians made a serious mistake which no other ethnicity made in Ottoman time. They wanted the lands that belong to Turks, not Ottomans. You can take lands from Ottomans as other ethnic groups did, but you cannot take land from Turks.

But Turks were and still are a minority vs. Kurds in E. Anatolia or W. Armenia!

If you didn't care about Lebanon,etc...why care about Armenia, where you turks even were a greater monority when 2.5 milion Armenians living there in 1915? Genocide was your only option...to make the area more muslim but Kurds never became "Turkified".

Let's also pay a hommage to the 1 million Christian Assyrians that perished in 1915!

Hard Turk wrote:

Yea,they force us to attack Armenia.What option do we have when they continuously act like an enemy?We don't want to invade Armenia,but we can not forever give permission to enemies around us.
We have to finish the threats.

The only threat to Turks is Turks themselves and their bad foreign policies...Turks are the ones that are isolated and in bad terms or just "tolerated" with almost all their neighbors.

Turkish paranoia, I call it, just like your post!

You Hard turk, with your nick and your posts prove my point.

Reality Check wrote:

<quoted text>
But Turks were and still are a minority vs. Kurds in E. Anatolia or W. Armenia!
If you didn't care about Lebanon,etc...why care about Armenia, where you turks even were a greater monority when 2.5 milion Armenians living there in 1915? Genocide was your only option...to make the area more muslim but Kurds never became "Turkified".
Let's also pay a hommage to the 1 million Christian Assyrians that perished in 1915!

First, your numbers are not right. There weren't 2.5 million Armenians in Ottoman Empire. The entire population that you refer to as West Aremenia was less than 2 millions including Kurds, Turks, Armenians and other ethnic groups (Arabs, Assyrians etc).

Second: For my opinion, my compatriots might disagree with me, but I wish Ataturk let Kurds have a state in cities like Batman, Diyarbakir, Siirt, Sirnak, Cizre, Mardin etc, where most of the population was (and is) Kurdish. I think not letting Kurds to have a separate state, but instead deciding to keep them inside, was Ataturk's only mistake in his entire life. These areas have no return to Turkey apart from headache, uneducated people, terorists etc. There are Kurds devoted to Turkey but from these cities the fraction is ver low.

However, the case is very different today. There is no way to separate Kurds and Turks in Turkey. Whoever tries it would cause a civil conflict. There is a lot of intermixing in cities, many Kurds do not know Kurdish, and the vast majority of Turkey's Kurds would not want to separate from Turkey even if Turkey agreed for a separate Kurdish state.

Serkan wrote:

It is not Turks who claim other countries's lands, be it former Ottoman Empire territories. On the contrary, you are the ones who still want Turkey's territories.
I personally have no desire over old Ottoman territories, nor do I have respect for Ottoman Empire's policy. I don't blame OE as it was just an empire and did not act any different than its kinds. But to me, Ottomans owned lands which we Turks never owned. It means nothing to me for Ottomans to rule Algeria, Lebonan, Syria, Serbia, or Romania and many more. The vast majority of people who lived on these lands were not Turkish, so, to me they were never really ours. So, it is better that they are not part of modern Turkey.
Armenians made a serious mistake which no other ethnicity made in Ottoman time. They wanted the lands that belong to Turks, not Ottomans. You can take lands from Ottomans as other ethnic groups did, but you cannot take land from Turks.

A quick comment:

The land in question is populated with Kurds. What do you mean exactly by Turkish land? All of modern day Turkey was conquered by the Osmans (Ottomans) from one local group or another. So what do you mean exactly by Turkish land?

Alexander wrote:

<quoted text>
A quick comment:
The land in question is populated with Kurds. What do you mean exactly by Turkish land? All of modern day Turkey was conquered by the Osmans (Ottomans) from one local group or another. So what do you mean exactly by Turkish land?

Turkish band with others' land.

Alexander wrote:

<quoted text>
A quick comment:
The land in question is populated with Kurds. What do you mean exactly by Turkish land? All of modern day Turkey was conquered by the Osmans (Ottomans) from one local group or another. So what do you mean exactly by Turkish land?

I am full of shit about you got it from this, that arguments. The reality is: the land belongs to whoever lives on it. That is the only definition that applies to real world.

Armenians wanted to carve out land from territories where they were a minority. That is not the case for Serbians, Greeks, Bulgarians, or Romanians.

Serkan wrote:

<quoted text>
First, your numbers are not right. There weren't 2.5 million Armenians in Ottoman Empire. The entire population that you refer to as West Aremenia was less than 2 millions including Kurds, Turks, Armenians and other ethnic groups (Arabs, Assyrians etc).
Second: For my opinion, my compatriots might disagree with me, but I wish Ataturk let Kurds have a state in cities like Batman, Diyarbakir, Siirt, Sirnak, Cizre, Mardin etc, where most of the population was (and is) Kurdish. I think not letting Kurds to have a separate state, but instead deciding to keep them inside, was Ataturk's only mistake in his entire life. These areas have no return to Turkey apart from headache, uneducated people, terorists etc. There are Kurds devoted to Turkey but from these cities the fraction is ver low.
However, the case is very different today. There is no way to separate Kurds and Turks in Turkey. Whoever tries it would cause a civil conflict. There is a lot of intermixing in cities, many Kurds do not know Kurdish, and the vast majority of Turkey's Kurds would not want to separate from Turkey even if Turkey agreed for a separate Kurdish state.

And you call me PKK!
Anatolia was and always Turkish.There are 10 000 years old stone writings relics of Turks in Anatolia.
Yes we gave permission to Armenian and Kurds to live here.But they never had a country of themselves'.
Because they never participated in wars their numbers increased.So what?And when Romans invaded Anatolia they found the opportunity to disperse to other cities like Istanbul.Kurds one day may pass the population of Turks in Istanbul.So what?
The important think is not the numbers but the spirit.We did not defend these lands against some armies that are inferior to us in numbers.
This nation's spirit is so high one day the whole world will realize this.
These days we live in ignorant Zionist days.These will be remembered as dark ages in the history of the world.
But as one day people realize the importance of being Turk,everybody will say,how happy I am a Turk.
As you know the person to ever lived first time on earth was Adam.As you also know human beings are called Adam in no other language but only in Turkish.
That is a proof that Adam was a Turk.One day everybody else will be Adam.(maybe accept Armenian).

Serkan wrote:

<quoted text>
I am full of shit about you got it from this, that arguments. The reality is: the land belongs to whoever lives on it. That is the only definition that applies to real world.
Armenians wanted to carve out land from territories where they were a minority. That is not the case for Serbians, Greeks, Bulgarians, or Romanians.

Then why does the same logic not apply to Karabakh or Javakh (Georgia)? LOL

My point is that it's a little more complex than that.....

Hard Turk wrote:

<quoted text>And you call me PKK!
Anatolia was and always Turkish.There are 10 000 years old stone writings relics of Turks in Anatolia.
Yes we gave permission to Armenian and Kurds to live here.But they never had a country of themselves'.
Because they never participated in wars their numbers increased.So what?And when Romans invaded Anatolia they found the opportunity to disperse to other cities like Istanbul.Kurds one day may pass the population of Turks in Istanbul.So what?
The important think is not the numbers but the spirit.We did not defend these lands against some armies that are inferior to us in numbers.
This nation's spirit is so high one day the whole world will realize this.
These days we live in ignorant Zionist days.These will be remembered as dark ages in the history of the world.
But as one day people realize the importance of being Turk,everybody will say,how happy I am a Turk.
As you know the person to ever lived first time on earth was Adam.As you also know human beings are called Adam in no other language but only in Turkish.
That is a proof that Adam was a Turk.One day everybody else will be Adam.(maybe accept Armenian).

What should the aim of Turkish state be? To provide good life to its Turkish people or to try to convert non-Turks to be Turkish?

I don't see any use of trying to convert the people who lives in Batman, Mardin, Siirt, Diyarbakir, Sirnak, Cizre, Hakkari into becoming Turkish. They are not Turks, why should they be so? Why should we force that onto them? If my children will be half-Kurdish and half-Turkish, then why not conquering Greece back again, and letting our grandchildren be Turkish-Greek-Kurdish, and then let us add Bulgaria too, and whole the World, and make them of Turkish culture but non-Turkish ancestory. What is the meaning? Is that what a state is supposed to be?

I repeat: I don't see a feasible way of separating Kurds and Turks anymore. BUTTT, I wish there was. I would be among th fiercest supportes of it. Turkey lost a lot of energy on PKK and educating Kurds, still doing so. We lost so many children. For what? Converting Kurds, who kill each other in blood feuds, and mistreat women into becoming Turkish?? This was not necessary. Without Kurds, Turkey would be around 30000 percapita GDP country and Kurdish state would be living in misery and poverty worse than today's Armenia.

I am against PKK not because they are separatists, but because I know: 1)There is no way to divide Turkey without civil war 2) Most Kurds, even the majority of those who vote for DTP, would not want to go to a Kurdish state if there was one.

Alexander wrote:

<quoted text>
Then why does the same logic not apply to Karabakh or Javakh (Georgia)? LOL
My point is that it's a little more complex than that.....

You cannot compare history with what you have done 15 years ago. You cannot get away with Karabagh. Azeris will return to their homes after a war in which Armenia will be defeated. In my opinion this is very likely to happen in 10 years.

If Azeris still don't act in 10 years, then keep Karabagh, I would sadly admit that they don't deserve it.

Serkan wrote:

<quoted text>
You cannot compare history with what you have done 15 years ago. You cannot get away with Karabagh. Azeris will return to their homes after a war in which Armenia will be defeated. In my opinion this is very likely to happen in 10 years.
If Azeris still don't act in 10 years, then keep Karabagh, I would sadly admit that they don't deserve it.

So according to the laws of Serkan it takes 25 years to qualify as history. So since the Israelis have been occupying West Bank, Gaza..... the Palestinians are "assed out"? LOL

This logic is a slippery slope my friend.....

Look I'm no nationalist or patriot.... I look at Turks, Greeks and Armenians and the only difference that I can see is that each think that they are superior....LOL There are bigger differences between Spain, France and Germany than the 3 of us. Whether we like to admit it or not....from culture, to food to our common stubbornness....

All I'm saying is that I disagree with your reasoning....

Hard Turk wrote:

<quoted text>And you call me PKK!
Anatolia was and always Turkish.There are 10 000 years old stone writings relics of Turks in Anatolia.
Yes we gave permission to Armenian and Kurds to live here.But they never had a country of themselves'.
Because they never participated in wars their numbers increased.So what?And when Romans invaded Anatolia they found the opportunity to disperse to other cities like Istanbul.Kurds one day may pass the population of Turks in Istanbul.So what?
The important think is not the numbers but the spirit.We did not defend these lands against some armies that are inferior to us in numbers.
This nation's spirit is so high one day the whole world will realize this.
These days we live in ignorant Zionist days.These will be remembered as dark ages in the history of the world.
But as one day people realize the importance of being Turk,everybody will say,how happy I am a Turk.
As you know the person to ever lived first time on earth was Adam.As you also know human beings are called Adam in no other language but only in Turkish.
That is a proof that Adam was a Turk.One day everybody else will be Adam.(maybe accept Armenian).

There are 10 000 years old stone writings relics of Turks in Anatolia??? No one in the world has such long history. Did you learn that from the INVENTED 3 volume comprehensive turkish history published by order of Ataturk? Then you must also believe that turks are Arian people originated from the Alpine region of Europe. You don't know your own history. Invasion of Seljuk turks of Anatolia began in the 11th century and was completed by the 15th century. In between during Mongol invasion Seljuk turks fell into 3 different tribes with one headed by Osman. He succeeded by taking over the other two tribes and his people were called after him Osmanli or Ottoman in western world.

Attila Han wrote:

I agree. But your government and diaspora are the one who does not let the past stay in the past. If we will shake hands, both sides must be aware that carrying the past to nowadays, just bring more blood and sadness. Was it worth to attact and kill many Azeris at the end of 20'th century? For what? For years of terrorism called asala, was it worth to kill innocient, unarmed people? for what? Although you terrorized Turkish for years and killed many Azeri Turks, Turkish Armenian still lives here and a group of Turkish Armenian were attacked in Armenia just because of their different opinions.
I think you have been in Mexico for a long time and you are far away the reality. How offen you visit your country?
<quoted text>

If you don't want to live in the past you have to first put the past behind and not throw it under the rug. You have to first come to terms with the past. Have you heard the words The Truth Will Set You Free? ASALA was back in the seventies and it was a small group but Grey Wolves and others is today's Turkey's reality. Killing journalist in Istanbul, cut throats of catholic priests in Malatya and so on. Your police officers who arrested murderer of Hrant Dink posed for pictures with him holding turkish flag.
As far as Azers go, we didn't kill innocent people and we were attacked first and only had to defend ourselves, which was proved we can do well. You all now remember only Azers that got killed during the war but you forget that it was them who committed atrocities in 1988 three years before war broke out in Sumgait and later in Baku. They attacked innocent helpless people without provocation. You know why they did it? Because you Turks got away with it in 1894 and 1915 or so they thought. Gorbachev had to send Soviet army with tanks on the streets of Sumgait and Baku to stop the massacres otherwise it would've been genocide .

Serkan wrote:

It is not Turks who claim other countries's lands, be it former Ottoman Empire territories. On the contrary, you are the ones who still want Turkey's territories.
I personally have no desire over old Ottoman territories, nor do I have respect for Ottoman Empire's policy. I don't blame OE as it was just an empire and did not act any different than its kinds. But to me, Ottomans owned lands which we Turks never owned. It means nothing to me for Ottomans to rule Algeria, Lebonan, Syria, Serbia, or Romania and many more. The vast majority of people who lived on these lands were not Turkish, so, to me they were never really ours. So, it is better that they are not part of modern Turkey.
Armenians made a serious mistake which no other ethnicity made in Ottoman time. They wanted the lands that belong to Turks, not Ottomans. You can take lands from Ottomans as other ethnic groups did, but you cannot take land from Turks.

Wrong, Armenians only wanted equal rights on their own land that they inhabited for 4500 years but that was too much too ask for. By the way August 11 of this year will mark 4500 years anniversary of victory in the battle of Armenian forefather HAIK against Babylonian king BELL in around lake VAN. Since then that land was called Land of Hayk and people living there Hays. As far as Turks go all of their land was concurred, they came from Central Asia where all turkic people originated from and still live there in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan etc. Armenians fault was that Turks after loosing in a disastrous way Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece were scared to death that they would have to give Armenians independence as well. Their fears were reinforced when in 1914 during World War I just few months before Genocide started Russian army which was staffed with many Armenians, including generals almost completely destroyed Turkish army in the battle of Sarikamish. Later, in 1918 when Russia plunged in turmoil of civil war during communist revolution and there was no Russian army Kemal put together an army that he called Army of Islam and sent it up north to finish Russian part of Armenia that survived the Genocide but was defeated by Armenian volunteers in the battle of Sardarabat.

Serkan wrote:

<quoted text>
Before 74, Greeks were talking just the same way as you do. They were saying if Turkey gets involved in Cyprus, European countries and US will screw Turkey. What happened? Even the Greeks of Greece did not move their asses for their Greek borther in Cyprus.
There is a Turkish proverb: "Baskasinin seyiyle gerdege girilmezmis." It is such a nice saying that I will not translate it, it is best in its original wording. But the saying applies perfectly to what you say.
In the first Karabagh conclict, Turkey was just looking for an excuse to get involved. People were very angry for massacres of Azeris by Armenians. You did not give us an excuse that time. But Baku-Ceyhan pipeline would be perfect for the next conflict. Turkey is one of the undertakers of the project, has interests and ownership on it, and so is legally allowed to protect it.

It's true Turkey has vested interest in the pipe but that pipe goes against someone else's bigger interests called Russia and to lesser extent Iran who wants to sell it's own gas. Armenia was able to come through victorious in the years that followed disastrous 1988 earthquake and economic depression that followed breakup of Soviet Union in 1991 and blockade, while outgunned and outnumbered by Azers. Azers had paid Russian and Ukrainian pilots $5,000 per trip to drop bombs on residential districts in Karabagh to cause panic and fear in the population , they had over 5,000 fighters from Afganistan, Chechens, Arabs and Turks but still lost. Today despite 15 years of turkish and 20 years of Azer blockade Armenia not just survives but booms economically and strongest militarily in the Caucasus region. Russia relays solely on Armenia in the region and Iran's security depends on Armenia's survival. It needs Armenia to counterbalance threat posed by Azer population in the north. By the way U.S. strategy for Iran includes the destabilization of Azer populated north of Iran and creation of Unified Azerbadjian to weaken Iran.

To ArmeNyan;

Most of the Turks critise Ottoman for having other nations at top of the management. This was what made Armenian richer and more powerful than Turks were in Ottoman. Armenians were very highly regarded people in Ottoman till early 1900s. When you agreed with mainly France and English to hit Ottoman from back side, it started to change and this was very normal for every nations worldwide. You attacted innocient families with no one to protect them and killed hundred thousands of them with their babies. This was the first bad incident between Ottoman ( because Ottoman was not Turks only ) and Armenian. Then Ottoman forced by you to send troops back from frontiers to East Anatolia although their hands were full with everyone. As there was no time to find and separate the gangs who was in the normal Armenian people,( which proves normal Armenian also supported them at least ) they decided to force them to move to south arab land for a limited time. Because they did not plan to lose war and they calculated that they will bring you back when the war finishes. But clearly Armenian suffered a lot cassulties on the way, not just because of the difficult moving conditions but also by the gangs attack on the way. Most of these gangs were also Armenian and Kurds. After 1970s Armenia officialy started a bad propaganda campaign against Turkiye ( who is not Ottoman actualy but a state that separated from Ottoman like Armenia ) and on the other way they started official terrorism called asala. Maybe this was the first official terrorist group that supported by a state called Armenia and unofficialy supported by France government who was actualy guilty for what happened in 1915. Continuining terrorism and propaganda for tens of years, normaly caused a rise in tension against Armenia in Turkiye and caused Hirant Dink was murdered by terrorists after his insulting article against Turkish nation on his newspaper. Hirant Dink was not right to insult Turks on a newspaper but he has got the right to write or speak whatever he thinks and if this is against the law, this problem must have compansated at courts. But killing Hirant for what he wrote is a pure terrorism. Asala was not back in 70s, they are still active and now your government using them to support PKK terrorists. You are still officialy supporting terrorism against Turkiye.
Turkiye captured, judged the murderers of Hirant and still questioning what and why happened and still some cases are contioning at courts. Hirant's family are speaking whatever they like on the press. Ordinary Turkish people protested heavily what happened to Hirant Dink.
Now I would like to hear your comments about your country? When a Turkish killed by Asala, did anyone walked through the street by shouting ' any of us are Turk, any of us are Mehmet', did anyone judge at your court and prisoned?, did anyone protest what happened from your government?
Didn't you even attacked Turkish Armenian journalists in your country just because they have different view than you have got?
If you like, do not teach me about history, it is best for all Armenian to continue to demagocy by using the sold puppets like French, Swiss, Austrian etc..

ArmeNyan wrote:

<quoted text>
There are 10 000 years old stone writings relics of Turks in Anatolia??? No one in the world has such long history. Did you learn that from the INVENTED 3 volume comprehensive turkish history published by order of Ataturk? Then you must also believe that turks are Arian people originated from the Alpine region of Europe. You don't know your own history. Invasion of Seljuk turks of Anatolia began in the 11th century and was completed by the 15th century. In between during Mongol invasion Seljuk turks fell into 3 different tribes with one headed by Osman. He succeeded by taking over the other two tribes and his people were called after him Osmanli or Ottoman in western world.

Do you understand Turkish?I will give you links in Turkish.

Reality Check wrote:

<quoted text>
Let's see if your president will have the guts and "grandeur" to accept the invitation to the match.
I agree with you that peace must prevail NOW and not in a century...but if most of the pop is like the "Serkan, Furkan, semih" variety....GOOD LUCK in reeducating your people to be more tolerant and accept the mistakes of the past...just like any mature nation would do.
The part that hurts us most is when Turks accuse us of killings when it was self-defense and as if we were the domimant power back then.
Don't forget that the 200,000 Armenians killed around Van in 1894 was in all the Armenians' memories in 1915.
We didn't betray anybody. Turks sound like Serbs in this case (with the ethnic cleansings as well, etc). We were like a kosovo in 1915 but without a NATO interviening. End result: 1.5 million killed, 0.5 mil survivors and less than 1 mil survivors later in Armenian SSR and NK.
This is why Turks have to take the first step and say "sorry"...at least! After that, we'll be ready for peace, VERY RAPIDLY! You said it, we are a tolerent people...but also very, very proud.

Fair enough..
i understand your pain and the seemingly injustice of the ways of the world then and now.If it makes it any easier i already apologiosed for the massacres and already keep trying to ensure a tolerance between us but i cannot do it alone as even before anew comer starts posting on these forums from Turkey,irrespective of the opinion they have;tye stereotyping immediately comes to fore..so maybe you should help too by trying to educate your people in the way that they should address us Turks..if we don`t want to get stuck in the past
maybe some pointers here will help;
Turks will never accept massacres as Genocide as it is against our nature to be genocidal as the entire Turkic culture is one of hospitality and social help-although not much of it these days with the advent of the infamous american imperialism,Maybe the way forward to be thus; you accept that we are not the same teocratic ottomans but a newly formed,operated republic-the only one in the eastern borders of the EU and hence should be recognised as such..an apology for the massacres by thre Turkish government;possible but only after the events are recogniseD as massacres then of course.
I am also hopeful that tha future is bright-irrespective of all the rhetoric flies about here-
and without the input from diaspora the relationships would be much easier to condust,but they seem to have a desire to continue this conflict in the hope of a utopic outcome.

Reality Check wrote:

<quoted text>
heheh...and Turkey will be smashed by Russia!
You get involved in the AZ conflict then turks will have all of CIS on their back...even though after seeing turkey in action against kurds...we know we can even handle you alone. Just ask the azeris about us...150 thousand NK Armenians kicked the asses of 7 million azeris. Do the math!

and all along i thought that the Armenian Republic was strong enough to do it all themselves??..i mean with all the rhetoric coming from your compatriots..they never even mention Russia.

I wonder if the Russians also got involved in the Azeri conflict too??...you do surprise me RC.

but i am still hopeful of the future as the Armenians in Armenia are a totally different breed to the diaspora-as the "D" always seem to be after a conflict with TR yet the AR people in general have no desire of such..it makes you think doesn`t it?