- Turkey's place is not in Europe'

u r mean u made me tink tis was a learnin website

jus jokin

I'm not exaggarating when I say in Turkey everybody is Turk?
State says:
Armenians=Riverturk
Kurd=Mountainturk
So you idiotos then can only beeee
CAVETURK!~

No news, I think everybody agrees with the title.

It depends on one's definiton of Europe , doesn't it ?

Turks are Eurasians , isn't it obvious ?

One can argue that their relations with Europe the past century would deem it as European. This means their top trade partner is Europe and it's countries, as opposed to it's other neighboring Eurasian countries you pointed out.

However collectively they're better of starting they're own union. Their economy is after all gaining on both the American and European alone.

One thing I'd like someone to address to me on these forums, I live in Canada and we respect minorities and immigrants that come into the country. What I don't understand is the anti-Turkism going on around here, it's so violent that this kind of behavior wouldn't be tolerated in any of the provinces to your north.

This being the more calm, however most calm post I'd like to have that answer. It's almost bizarre as to this much hate towards a country that's been relatively peaceful in comparison to many other ones in the world.

I plan to goto Turkey in may, however I'm doubting what to expect with this much hate going on. Someone please elaborate.

Canadian wrote:

One can argue that their relations with Europe the past century would deem it as European. This means their top trade partner is Europe and it's countries, as opposed to it's other neighboring Eurasian countries you pointed out.
However collectively they're better of starting they're own union. Their economy is after all gaining on both the American and European alone.
One thing I'd like someone to address to me on these forums, I live in Canada and we respect minorities and immigrants that come into the country. What I don't understand is the anti-Turkism going on around here, it's so violent that this kind of behavior wouldn't be tolerated in any of the provinces to your north.
This being the more calm, however most calm post I'd like to have that answer. It's almost bizarre as to this much hate towards a country that's been relatively peaceful in comparison to many other ones in the world.
I plan to goto Turkey in may, however I'm doubting what to expect with this much hate going on. Someone please elaborate.

You wont understand. I live in Canada, believe me you will NEVER understand. Canada is a very young nation that has not really done much to anybody except the natives. And you guys feed them, and give them a lot of money and land monthly.

Its different in Turkey, their minorities were treated like crap and later massacred in a idiotic attempt to stop land looses of their dead Empire. Now those minorities have their own countries and do not forget.

These minorities also really despise the fact that monuments and history you are going to go see on your vacation have absolutely nothing to do with Turks or Turkey, who were Asiatic invaders who came to Anatolia.

The history of Turkey is stolen history of other nations. Canada has no history, but the neighbors of Turkey do and are extremely proud and protective of it.

Finally a fellow caker! But I really don't like what you have to say about us. We had wars with the U.S. notably war of 1812, fought against the centrals in WW1, nazis in WW2, thereafter the Korean war. There is a fair amount of history there and I'm ashamed to see you don't take note in Canadian honor. Calling it non-existent.

I will never understand? I am understanding one thing, the nations the Turks migrated into no longer exist. Thus making them indigenous to the lands they now live in. Just like how your grand parents migrated here no doubt.

Very keen on bias remarks, and you seem to be on the level of bashing Turks to the farthest extent. In other words, ethnicities were being cleansed throughout Europe. Turks were also cleansed in various parts around asia minor and in Europe. Is it true that there is a 0% population of Turks living in Armenia? And some 70,000+ Armenians living in Turkey? In fact there are Armenians fleeing Armenia to live in Turkey? If they are hated so much why are they running to their arms? Something is very much so amiss here and I'm sure to find out by visiting successor nation of the Ottoman Empire.

By the way, history is something that cannot be stolen.

I asked for an elaboration not a bash fest of an ethnicity. Wars start because of your kind of attitude mister.

Have a wonderful monday on the west coast.

Canadian wrote:

Finally a fellow caker! But I really don't like what you have to say about us. We had wars with the U.S. notably war of 1812, fought against the centrals in WW1, nazis in WW2, thereafter the Korean war. There is a fair amount of history there and I'm ashamed to see you don't take note in Canadian honor. Calling it non-existent.
I will never understand? I am understanding one thing, the nations the Turks migrated into no longer exist. Thus making them indigenous to the lands they now live in. Just like how your grand parents migrated here no doubt.
Very keen on bias remarks, and you seem to be on the level of bashing Turks to the farthest extent. In other words, ethnicities were being cleansed throughout Europe. Turks were also cleansed in various parts around asia minor and in Europe. Is it true that there is a 0% population of Turks living in Armenia? And some 70,000+ Armenians living in Turkey? In fact there are Armenians fleeing Armenia to live in Turkey? If they are hated so much why are they running to their arms? Something is very much so amiss here and I'm sure to find out by visiting successor nation of the Ottoman Empire.
By the way, history is something that cannot be stolen.
I asked for an elaboration not a bash fest of an ethnicity. Wars start because of your kind of attitude mister.
Have a wonderful monday on the west coast.

I didnt really say Canada does not have history, but it is limited. Canadians fought bravely in WWI and WWII. And we did kick American asses in 1812.

Well it is true that Turks are something like 90-95% Greek, Armenian, Bulgarian, Persian, Kurds than they are Turks, but when someone calls themselves Turkish and speaks the language you are a Turk. Like in Canada, your ancestors where mostly from Europe but now you are Canadian and have no connection to where you are originally from.(Unless you strive to keep a balance of both)

It is true that Turks were also cleansed at this time period but this does not compare to the extent of their neighbors.

There is a reason there are no Turks in Armenia, because there has never been Turks in Armenia. Anatolia (Turkey) has been the home of Armenians for thousands of years, but the 70,000 Armenians in Turkey are not in Anatolia but in Istanbul which is in Europe. What happened to the 2million+ Armenians in Anatolia.

Eastern Turkey has never had a major Turkish population, the ethnic majority of the population now are Kurds, in the early 1900's it was Armenians.

I think I explained the bashing of this ethnicity?.

Monday?!, Oh yeah, ahhhh school work is tuff!. Well that is if you are wasting time on the net :(

P.S Maple Leafs SUCK! And the CN tower is not the tallest man made structure anymore you guys suck!

:)

Canadian wrote:

Finally a fellow caker! But I really don't like what you have to say about us. We had wars with the U.S. notably war of 1812, fought against the centrals in WW1, nazis in WW2, thereafter the Korean war. There is a fair amount of history there and I'm ashamed to see you don't take note in Canadian honor. Calling it non-existent.
I will never understand? I am understanding one thing, the nations the Turks migrated into no longer exist. Thus making them indigenous to the lands they now live in. Just like how your grand parents migrated here no doubt.
Very keen on bias remarks, and you seem to be on the level of bashing Turks to the farthest extent. In other words, ethnicities were being cleansed throughout Europe. Turks were also cleansed in various parts around asia minor and in Europe. Is it true that there is a 0% population of Turks living in Armenia? And some 70,000+ Armenians living in Turkey? In fact there are Armenians fleeing Armenia to live in Turkey? If they are hated so much why are they running to their arms? Something is very much so amiss here and I'm sure to find out by visiting successor nation of the Ottoman Empire.
By the way, history is something that cannot be stolen.
I asked for an elaboration not a bash fest of an ethnicity. Wars start because of your kind of attitude mister.
Have a wonderful monday on the west coast.

Well said.It's refreshing to see someone so far-off making objective comments.

One doesn't have the right to make any evaluation about a country without first digesting its past and that within historical context.I don't know Canadian history so I'm not at all entitled to say you have no history. Or to say there never Turks in Armenia because in Ottoman times Turks were not popular elements of the population in the eyes of Ottoman ruling elite so using the term Turks as an umbrella term for Muslims is a fallacy from the start.In fact nearly half the population of Yerevan (Revan in Turkish history) were Moslems after the conquest.

Whether Turks are European or not is still a debatable issue, however, one cannot write the history of Europe without Ottomans.

Don't heed the comments in this madhose of a forum seriously.

Come and see us, you'll be surprised, I quarantee that.It's September and the time of the art Bienal and Istanbul is raided by art lovers from all over the world - the present curator being Japanese ;-)

Canadian wrote:

One can argue that their relations with Europe the past century would deem it as European. This means their top trade partner is Europe and it's countries, as opposed to it's other neighboring Eurasian countries you pointed out.
However collectively they're better of starting they're own union. Their economy is after all gaining on both the American and European alone.
One thing I'd like someone to address to me on these forums, I live in Canada and we respect minorities and immigrants that come into the country. What I don't understand is the anti-Turkism going on around here, it's so violent that this kind of behavior wouldn't be tolerated in any of the provinces to your north.
This being the more calm, however most calm post I'd like to have that answer. It's almost bizarre as to this much hate towards a country that's been relatively peaceful in comparison to many other ones in the world.
I plan to goto Turkey in may, however I'm doubting what to expect with this much hate going on. Someone please elaborate.

Hi Canadian,

Turks are of an Euroasian nation who are the descendants of the Huns and the Scythians. The first European encounter with the Turks was recorded by Byzantines in the 6th Century when the Turks agreed to ally with the East Roman Empire against Persia in exchange with some trade privileges. After the break up of the Gokturk (Celestial Turks) Empire, Turkic speaking Volga Bulgars, Khazars, Cumans, Pechenegs, and Oghuz tribes came into play, particularly in Eastern Europe and in the Balkans.

Whilst many of the ones settled in the Balkans converted to Christianity (Such as the Karamanlis family of Greece who produced series of prime ministers there), the other Turkish speaking tribes of the Eastern Europe started to convert to Islam in the 10th Century, and then the Seljuk Turks coming from Khazar Region built a large empire by onquering Iraq, Armenia, Persia, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Afghanistan. In late 11th Century, Seljuks defeated the largest Roman Empire ever deployed on the battlefield, and opened the gates for the Turkish settlement in Asia Minor. This Turkic expansion caused a series of campaigns later known as the "Crusades".

Furthermore, the Seljuks administration started decline, and later it was replaced by the Ottoman Turks in Anatolia. The Ottoman Turks soon put an end to the East Roman Empire, and kept on defeating the European/Christian forces for centuries. Such expansion and dominion of the Ottoman Turks continued until late 17th Century, then a stagnation of the Turkish empire took place until the Industrial Revolution.

Following the Industrial and French Revolution, the empire of the Ottoman Turks started to shrink whilst the Ottoman subjects gained independence one by one. Particularly in the 19th Century and the early 20th Century, a series of military campaigns targeted the Ottoman Empire. During that period in time, particularly the image of the Ottoman Turks became an object of caricaturization of "the East and Islam", and such image became a part of the folklore of many European nations, particularly the ones, which gained independence from the Ottoman Turks. Such strong historical perceptions are still strong amongst the Armenians, Greeks, Bulgars, and the Serbs.

Apero wrote:

<quoted text>
There is a reason there are no Turks in Armenia, because there has never been Turks in Armenia. Anatolia (Turkey) has been the home of Armenians for thousands of years, but the 70,000 Armenians in Turkey are not in Anatolia but in Istanbul which is in Europe. What happened to the 2million+ Armenians in Anatolia.

Eastern Turkey has never had a major Turkish population, the ethnic majority of the population now are Kurds, in the early 1900's it was Armenians.

Today the Russian province of Erivan is the main part of the Armenian Republic but in the 1820s Turkish Muslims made up the majority of its population. The Armenian population whose descendants would live in the Armenian Republic were in the 1820s scattered over the Caucasus and eastern Anatolia. In 1826, the Russians began a great forced exchange of population that was to create an Armenia in Erivan and cause great suffering to both the Turks and Armenians.
http://www.humanities.ualberta.ca/ottoman/bal...

The ongoing exchange of population changed the demographic picture of the East and caused great hardship and hatred on both sides. If blame were to be assigned to anyone it would be to the Russian imperialists, but the hatred that developed was between the Muslims and the Armenians. By the end of the nineteenth century sides had been drawn... As the Russians advanced both Turks and Armenians were gradually drawn into the conflict that had its bloody conclusion in the First World War.(pp.334,5)

http://www.humanities.ualberta.ca/ottoman/mod...

ladyteacher wrote:

<quoted text>one cannot write the history of Europe without Ottomans.

The most recent history, probably. Our history dates long long before Osman and Seljuk...

Anyway, it's true: there's no protagonist without an antagonist...

willow wrote:

<quoted text>
The most recent history, probably. Our history dates long long before Osman and Seljuk...
Anyway, it's true: there's no protagonist without an antagonist...

Who is which, then?

ladyteacher wrote:

<quoted text>
Who is which, then?

I know your point of view, you know mine.

willow wrote:

<quoted text>
I know your point of view, you know mine.

I have an idea but I may be wrong.

Again which is which ,I would like to know.

Your protagonist my antagonist and vice versa? Please explain, I'm curious.

History has neither my friends.

No antagonist nor protagonist. Those a literary terms used to describe bad guys and good guys in fairy tales, stories, and epics.

This is history. It has neither.

Why? Because each side tells a different story with each having it's own antagonist and protagonist.

In order to bridge this gulf, as I've read, is to embrace the teachings of the secularist known as Kemal Ataturk. Who fought against the Greeks, Armenians and other minorities during the Turkish war of independence. However, did establish good relations and restrictions upon racial behavior within the country.

Those beliefs are still in play as I read about Turkish politics today, however are perverted to a degree. But who is to say that racism still does not exist in the most "civilized" countries of the world.

France degrades it's African colonial immigrants. The U.S. "relocated" like the Ottomans their Japanese inhabitants into labor camps. The U.S. still struggles with it's values towards it's black, and Spanish minorities. What makes Turkey far worse is it's critics. Angering a country without need or lousy excuse of losing territory in prehistoric times is rather dogmatic. Expecting a reaction is fairly, how can we say, human?

Which the Turks have sufficiently done in a parallel aspect of it's neighbors. Ignoring the facts of those ethnic minorities united under one flag, the Ottoman flag has come to arisen serious concern of it's subjects. Seeing as though they still exist today, and were not cleansed as the Jews were in WW2. The Armenian genocide is a disputed genocide due to the lack of facts, and how the diaspora of Armenians condemning the Turkish nation for what it is today.

I read a quote by Hrant Dink, rest his soul a man of true valor and honor. Said: "Armenians are doctors to Turks, and Turks are doctors to Turks." This sentiment goes for the same towards Greeks, Bulgars (who if I'm not mistaken were Turkic), Kurds etc.

This is more of a Kemalist reform or idea projected towards the entire region. If it's lived through the entire area, it can set an example as it once did for the world for as a peaceful, prosperous, whole.

Keep it in mind and use the logic of "Kritical" to truly believe it can be achieved.

Farewell everyone.

Well said, again.

One thing to elaborate then:

The ignorance of most users of this forum projects itself in evaluating the situation of so-called 'minorities' of the Ottoman Empire.The Ottoman state had sovereign over several ethnic groups called millet, which in fact means nation but has nothing to do with the term 'minority' which is a relatively new concept in which elements of clash, assimilation or resistance to assimilation are embedded. The millets lived within their compartments and rarely had any problems with the state. Rather they had problems among themselves ie the Rum Orthodox with Slavic Orthodox or Armenian Orthodox with Armenian Catholic etc.

Ottoman Empire has provided different ethnicities,namely millets,their own independent nation states at its end and this is what the quarrel is about.

Regards

Canadian wrote:

History has neither my friends.
No antagonist nor protagonist. Those a literary terms used to describe bad guys and good guys in fairy tales, stories, and epics.
This is history. It has neither.
Why? Because each side tells a different story with each having it's own antagonist and protagonist.
In order to bridge this gulf, as I've read, is to embrace the teachings of the secularist known as Kemal Ataturk. Who fought against the Greeks, Armenians and other minorities during the Turkish war of independence. However, did establish good relations and restrictions upon racial behavior within the country.
Those beliefs are still in play as I read about Turkish politics today, however are perverted to a degree. But who is to say that racism still does not exist in the most "civilized" countries of the world.
France degrades it's African colonial immigrants. The U.S. "relocated" like the Ottomans their Japanese inhabitants into labor camps. The U.S. still struggles with it's values towards it's black, and Spanish minorities. What makes Turkey far worse is it's critics. Angering a country without need or lousy excuse of losing territory in prehistoric times is rather dogmatic. Expecting a reaction is fairly, how can we say, human?
Which the Turks have sufficiently done in a parallel aspect of it's neighbors. Ignoring the facts of those ethnic minorities united under one flag, the Ottoman flag has come to arisen serious concern of it's subjects. Seeing as though they still exist today, and were not cleansed as the Jews were in WW2. The Armenian genocide is a disputed genocide due to the lack of facts, and how the diaspora of Armenians condemning the Turkish nation for what it is today.
I read a quote by Hrant Dink, rest his soul a man of true valor and honor. Said: "Armenians are doctors to Turks, and Turks are doctors to Turks." This sentiment goes for the same towards Greeks, Bulgars (who if I'm not mistaken were Turkic), Kurds etc.
This is more of a Kemalist reform or idea projected towards the entire region. If it's lived through the entire area, it can set an example as it once did for the world for as a peaceful, prosperous, whole.
Keep it in mind and use the logic of "Kritical" to truly believe it can be achieved.
Farewell everyone.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

I hope you enjoy your time in Turkey.