Gorbachev pleads for old Polish Communist leader

I agree with Gorbachev. Jaruzelski deserves much respect, his position was not an easy one. Things could have been much worse.

His military achievements stand alone. Anyone thinking of discontinuing his pension is a nut of the first order.

Gorbachev'd better shut up. He is wanted by people of Russia as traitor.
All the Commies must finish their lives in jail.

Gorbachev was one of the finest, most humane people to have emerged from Russia in the 20th Century.

You my friend need to learn the meaning of compassion ...

If one praises those who betrayed you, he is your enemy.

HealingTime wrote:

Gorbachev was one of the finest, most humane people to have emerged from Russia in the 20th Century.
You my friend need to learn the meaning of compassion ...

Oh, absolutely, I agree ! A man who headed a political party and a government that denied people the right to free speech, the right to a free press, the right to live where they want to, the right to freedom of religion, the right to vote for any political party they wish, etc...

a FINE human being !

He was such a GREAT and SUCCESSFUL president of the USSR ( an empire he destroyed),he must be PERFECTLY capable of being President of the United States or any other country that requires such a GREAT and JUST leader.

Right ?!

:)

he is still alive and Poles have chance to elect the great traitor as their President. He is unemployed now after his pizza ads contract finished.

Daniel P from Long Island wrote:

<quoted text>
Oh, absolutely, I agree ! A man who headed a political party and a government that denied people the right to free speech, the right to a free press, the right to live where they want to, the right to freedom of religion, the right to vote for any political party they wish, etc...
a FINE human being !
He was such a GREAT and SUCCESSFUL president of the USSR ( an empire he destroyed),he must be PERFECTLY capable of being President of the United States or any other country that requires such a GREAT and JUST leader.
Right ?!
:)

You may consider Gorbachev a traitor, and you may even consider Jaruzelski a great patriot. Hardly matters unless you take into account what went before and what the situaton was at the time.

Chances are sonny, that you were still suckling at your mommy breast at the time, and all that you know is based on your favourite propaganda wrag.

Maybe I'm wrong, but what you need to understand is that the man tried more than anyone to free Soviet society of the shackles on the mind. He understood that when the minds of the people are rigidly locked into a fixed and doomed way of thinking, then there can be no progress whatsoever. To do that within a tyranical system that was the Soviet Union is a beyond brave and beyond any concept that you could imagine. Unfortunately for him, the great new little Vodz Putinek, is returning the country to the same shackled ways of thinking. That really is too bad.

HealingTime wrote:

<quoted text>
You may consider Gorbachev a traitor, and you may even consider Jaruzelski a great patriot. Hardly matters unless you take into account what went before and what the situaton was at the time.
Chances are sonny, that you were still suckling at your mommy breast at the time, and all that you know is based on your favourite propaganda wrag.
Maybe I'm wrong, but what you need to understand is that the man tried more than anyone to free Soviet society of the shackles on the mind. He understood that when the minds of the people are rigidly locked into a fixed and doomed way of thinking, then there can be no progress whatsoever. To do that within a tyranical system that was the Soviet Union is a beyond brave and beyond any concept that you could imagine. Unfortunately for him, the great new little Vodz Putinek, is returning the country to the same shackled ways of thinking. That really is too bad.

I'm in my 50's sonny, and have been a hard-core anti-communist since my mid-teens.

I have been a Libertarian for more than 20 years.

ANY person who is a communist is EVIL.

Pure and simple. Black and white.

Anyone who is an enemy of LIBERTY is EVIL.

Pure and simple. Black and white.

Daniel P from Long Island wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm in my 50's sonny, and have been a hard-core anti-communist since my mid-teens.
I have been a Libertarian for more than 20 years.
ANY person who is a communist is EVIL.
Pure and simple. Black and white.
Anyone who is an enemy of LIBERTY is EVIL.
Pure and simple. Black and white.

Errrrr sometimes things aren't all black and white.....there is some gray sometimes lol

What happened during the Gorbachev/Jaruzelski days has to be judged within the context of those times and not by today's standards.

Other then that I like the way you think.....well at least..... 80% of what you think. LOL

On another note, I like that cat picture you got. He's cute.:):)

Daniel P from Long Island wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm in my 50's sonny, and have been a hard-core anti-communist since my mid-teens.
I have been a Libertarian for more than 20 years.
ANY person who is a communist is EVIL.
Pure and simple. Black and white.
Anyone who is an enemy of LIBERTY is EVIL.
Pure and simple. Black and white.

In reality, there is no such thing as pure black and pure white. You being who you are, should know and understand that better than most.

if you play chess, black is beautiful, but white moves first no matter what age you are at !

..perhaps white is might?

shh, not so load, we might end up being called racists !
do they make any wines in scottie, besides that scotch ?

HealingTime wrote:

I agree with Gorbachev. Jaruzelski deserves much respect, his position was not an easy one. Things could have been much worse.
His military achievements stand alone. Anyone thinking of discontinuing his pension is a nut of the first order.

On this occasion I beg to differ with you. Jaruzelski's actions at the time were more related to preserving the position of him and those in government rather than preventing a Soviet invasion. Last year Polish television broadcast a documentary on the aniversary of the declaration of Marshall Law. Some of the key actors that were in power at the time in Russia were interviewed about the evnts and categorically refute that there was any intention to invade Poland. However, it was always a credible justification for Jaruzelski to use. In fact the then head of the Soviet Chiefs of Staff said he was simply amazed at the enthusiasm Jaruzelski displayed at encouraging the Soviets to invade. His reply to Jaruzelski's request was that since he had created the mess - then he should clear it up. The request was turned down flat.
So it appears that there was no real threat of invasion.
The above aside I think it is totally improper for Jaruzelski to keep receiving an ex-Presidents pension. He was never elected by anybody and many of "his subjects" had their lives ruined by his actions - not to mention their livelyhoods. He brought misery and destitution on the nation. This resulted in the mass exodus of Poles and the virtual total collapse of the economy. He simply ruined millions of his own citizens lives.
I do not believe Jaruzelski will every be brought to account for his actions. There are too many vested interests in Poland even today that would prevent that. However, to treat him as an "honourary citizen" and an "upstanding member of society" is equally wrong.

pesky wrote:

shh, not so load, we might end up being called racists !
do they make any wines in scottie, besides that scotch ?

;-)

Yeah, we make fruit wines, not many, but I like 'em.

Obsie,

Jaruzelski - firstly it's his military pension they want to take away from him.

Which means the 10 cent bureaucrats, who were still wiping their noses on their sleeves when Jaruzelski was a General want to take away his military pension!

Betweem '43 and '45 jaruzelski was in the 1st Polish Army on the Byelorrusian Front which crossed the Wisla, went through Warsaw, all the battles going through the Waly Pomorskie, forced the Odra, battles through the mud and fortifications of the East German plain and then on to Berlin.

And lets just forget the total dedication to the Army for the rest of his life.

The man did more for Poland in any one day above, than 10 Warsaw bureaucrats will do in all their lives. And yet they even dare to suggest that he loses his military pension! I'm sorry but that is not what Poland is about, not before the PRL, not during the PRL and not after the PRL.

The events of 1981 are debateable. Do not forget it is in the Russian interest to make Poland appear bad. I would take any such information with a pinch of salt, unless it comes from someone of stature like Mikhail Gorbachev.

When Jaruzelski called for Martial Law, Brezhnev was still in power. Brezhnev was about as direct to the times of Stalin as you could get. Jaruzelski was not and is not a man to fuck around. He knew the Soviets inside out, better than 20 so called specialists you'll find in the EU. He knew what may happen, no matter what anyone tells you. And I believe that he acted with the better part of his instinct for the sake of Poland. In the end no one knew how it would end. He made a decision, the future was far from clear, the pressure was intense, and I respect him for the decision he made at the time. As I do that he took Poland into the Round table discussions and that the transition of power went smoothly.

Just for interest, Jaruzelski has made his own website. It's worth having a look at.

http://www.wojciech-jaruzelski.pl/main.php...

I for one wish him sto lat!

HealingTime wrote:

Obsie,
Jaruzelski - firstly it's his military pension they want to take away from him.
Which means the 10 cent bureaucrats, who were still wiping their noses on their sleeves when Jaruzelski was a General want to take away his military pension!
Betweem '43 and '45 jaruzelski was in the 1st Polish Army on the Byelorrusian Front which crossed the Wisla, went through Warsaw, all the battles going through the Waly Pomorskie, forced the Odra, battles through the mud and fortifications of the East German plain and then on to Berlin.
And lets just forget the total dedication to the Army for the rest of his life.
The man did more for Poland in any one day above, than 10 Warsaw bureaucrats will do in all their lives. And yet they even dare to suggest that he loses his military pension! I'm sorry but that is not what Poland is about, not before the PRL, not during the PRL and not after the PRL.
The events of 1981 are debateable. Do not forget it is in the Russian interest to make Poland appear bad. I would take any such information with a pinch of salt, unless it comes from someone of stature like Mikhail Gorbachev.
When Jaruzelski called for Martial Law, Brezhnev was still in power. Brezhnev was about as direct to the times of Stalin as you could get. Jaruzelski was not and is not a man to fuck around. He knew the Soviets inside out, better than 20 so called specialists you'll find in the EU. He knew what may happen, no matter what anyone tells you. And I believe that he acted with the better part of his instinct for the sake of Poland. In the end no one knew how it would end. He made a decision, the future was far from clear, the pressure was intense, and I respect him for the decision he made at the time. As I do that he took Poland into the Round table discussions and that the transition of power went smoothly.
Just for interest, Jaruzelski has made his own website. It's worth having a look at.
http://www.wojciech-jaruzelski.pl/main.php...
I for one wish him sto lat!

I went to the site. If he really wants to get people on his side, he should also have the site in English as most Europeans and Americans understand English.

I am sorry Healing Time, but I simply do not agree with your point of view. Yes of course Jaruzelski was a military man. However, he career was based on serving Russias, not Polands interests. He willingly served in the Russian army and in doing so kowingly undermined the legitimate government of Poland in London. This is not the action of a hero, but rather an opportunist at best (like most of the Communist regime) or a simple traitor at worst. The fact that he was a military man at the time when the Russians imposed their Communist ideology in Poland and terrorised, murdered and forced into exile members of the Home Army, also says much for his character. If he was so honourable he would have resigned – but he didn't. Furthermore Jaruzelski advanced his career on the back of the Communists who never enjoyed significant support in Poland and, as I said earlier – simply executed the interests of Russia. Sorry, but he is no hero to me – as indeed he is not with the vast majority of Poles.
With regard to the Round Table Agreement, yes he played a role. However, one has to remember (and I do remember those times very well) that by the time the Round Table Agreement was signed the "writing was on the wall" for the Communists in Poland, as Gorbachovs regime in Russia had clearly indicated. So I do not buy the insinuation that Jaruzelski suddenly became a democrat and a decent person. He just behaved in his typically obnoxious opportunistic style and "jumped before he was pushed". Remember, only a few years before the Round Table Agreement he was claiming that Solidarity meant nothing in Poland and had been crushed. He had also imprisoned thousands of Solidarity activists and forced into exile thousands more. These activists were the true Polish heros who, despite great personal sacrifice and risk, fought against an incompetent, illegitimate and corrupt regime often suffering personally as a result.
As I said in my last post, above all Jaruzelski was responsible for the total moral and physical collapse of Poland and bringing it to the level of a third world country.
To me Jaruzelski represents all that was bad about Communist Poland. His efforts to impose the twisted Soviet philosophy on the Polish nation, and his betrayal of the Polish government in London, speaks volumes. He is not a military hero in my mind, but a traitor. As such the very thought of him receiving a military pension in recognition of his "service to the fatherland" is ludicrous. It is precisely these types of anomalies in Poland the reinforce within so many citizens a feeling of deep resentment that justice has not been metered out to the people responsible for enslaving and imprisoning the nation following WWII.

Daniel P from Long Island wrote:

<quoted text>
I went to the site. If he really wants to get people on his side, he should also have the site in English as most Europeans and Americans understand English.

Daniel,

I'm sorry. Mr Jaruzelski is beyond careing about the English speaking world.

Observer wrote:

I am sorry Healing Time, but I simply do not agree with your point of view. Yes of course Jaruzelski was a military man. However, he career was based on serving Russias, not Polands interests. He willingly served in the Russian army and in doing so kowingly undermined the legitimate government of Poland in London. This is not the action of a hero, but rather an opportunist at best (like most of the Communist regime) or a simple traitor at worst.........

Obsie,

Before we go any further we need to disuss this particular statement because it is so false that it beggers belief.

Jaruzelski was in commanding officer of 5th Infantery Regiment, 2nd Division of the 1st Polish Army formed in the Soviet Union under Polish General Berling. The Polish forces formed 10% of the push on Germany from the Eastern front. WW2 was the Eastern front, everything else was a side show. Without the efforts of these men who gave all, there would be no Poland whatsoever.

Poles had two options in Russia. Those that were in a position to go, left via Persia with General Anders. Those who were left behind, and keep in mind that there were millions of Poles in Russia scattered over a vast area, voluteered for he Polish Army in the East.

You need to explain to me where they were in error verging on treachory? And what their other options were?

And I remind you that in 1942/1943 we were not having a squabble about the size of fishing quotas.