Poles announce the continuation of the struggle for Polish education in Lithuania

Zielin wrote:

<quoted text>
Well large chunk of the USA is the land taken form the Mexican territory.
Start there !
Anyway we talking compensation for damages done to them!
So there is long line waiting for the USA to do that lol
Don't write shtye Abe!

Did you know America gave money to Mexico for territory it got from Mexico?

Also where did Mexico get its territory from?

AbeUG wrote:

<quoted text>
Did you know America gave money to Mexico for territory it got from Mexico?
Also where did Mexico get its territory from?

No, did they ?
do you have a nice house Abe? I will kick you out from it and then give you a ten dolars to make it up !
From Spain ?

The point is that the U.S. has engaged in the same type of meddling that every dominant power has undertaken in every historical era. In fact, much less so, as opposed to countries such as Spain, France, Portugal, and Great Britain. Did the U.S. occupy Mexico after the war, prevent its self-governance, jail and torture it citizens, or randomly murder political activists for any amount of time (much less decades)?

On the other hand, all of this pales in comparison to the murder, mayhem, torture, other atrocities, and utter monstrosities committed by Communist regimes such as the Soviet Union. There is simply no comparison to the deaths of one-hundred million innocent humans in less than a century.

To try to equate the horrifying acts made by communist regimes (really just a front for power-hungry misfits and madmen) to anything else in human history is to simply expose yourself as a fool at the very best or a foul and detestable denizen of evil.

Veritas wrote:

The point is that the U.S. has engaged in the same type of meddling that every dominant power has undertaken in every historical era. In fact, much less so, as opposed to countries such as Spain, France, Portugal, and Great Britain. Did the U.S. occupy Mexico after the war, prevent its self-governance, jail and torture it citizens, or randomly murder political activists for any amount of time (much less decades)?
On the other hand, all of this pales in comparison to the murder, mayhem, torture, other atrocities, and utter monstrosities committed by Communist regimes such as the Soviet Union. There is simply no comparison to the deaths of one-hundred million innocent humans in less than a century.
To try to equate the horrifying acts made by communist regimes (really just a front for power-hungry misfits and madmen) to anything else in human history is to simply expose yourself as a fool at the very best or a foul and detestable denizen of evil.

I agree. The poster Zielin is a relic from the Soviet era who believed all of the commie propaganda from that time and stil does.

Veritas wrote:

The point is that the U.S. has engaged in the same type of meddling that every dominant power has undertaken in every historical era. In fact, much less so, as opposed to countries such as Spain, France, Portugal, and Great Britain. Did the U.S. occupy Mexico after the war, prevent its self-governance, jail and torture it citizens, or randomly murder political activists for any amount of time (much less decades)?
On the other hand, all of this pales in comparison to the murder, mayhem, torture, other atrocities, and utter monstrosities committed by Communist regimes such as the Soviet Union. There is simply no comparison to the deaths of one-hundred million innocent humans in less than a century.
To try to equate the horrifying acts made by communist regimes (really just a front for power-hungry misfits and madmen) to anything else in human history is to simply expose yourself as a fool at the very best or a foul and detestable denizen of evil.

and your point is ? the soviet union is gonne for 20 years already.
I;m talking about the usa and Russia now. You must admit that nowadays the usa is the most agresive nation on the globe, attacking one country after the other.
the foul denizen of evil is today an American, stop living in the past, not good for you.

Pro Ukraine wrote:

<quoted text>I agree.

Who cares about your opinion, you have no two brain cells togethter in all your body,

Zielin wrote:

<quoted text>
Who cares about your opinion, you have no two brain cells togethter in all your body,

You do, or you wouldn't have replied. You're in the group of the least intelligent posters on here, which includes Pesky Army and Lukashenko is Dr Phil.

Pro Ukraine wrote:

<quoted text>You do, or you wouldn't have replied. You're in the group of the least intelligent posters on here, which includes Pesky Army and Lukashenko is Dr Phil.

say who? I suspect that they have lost hope to have an inteligent discusion with you and just have a fun laughing at you.
face it you are dimwitted ignorant pup,hohol!
How old are you 14 ?

Zielin wrote:

<quoted text>
say who? I suspect that they have lost hope to have an inteligent discusion with you and just have a fun laughing at you.
face it you are dimwitted ignorant pup,hohol!
How old are you 14 ?

A flea has more intelligence than you.
I'm older than you, I suspect that you are a commie student or a toilet cleaner.:-)

Pro Ukraine wrote:

<quoted text>A flea has more intelligence than you.
I'm older than you, I suspect that you are a commie student or a toilet cleaner.:-)

I'm sure you are familiar with fleas, being an flea infested creature.
And who are you ? pimp? selling Ukrainians girls to houses of ill repute or pimping them yourself ?:D

Zielin wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm sure you are familiar with fleas, being an flea infested creature.
And who are you ? pimp? selling Ukrainians girls to houses of ill repute or pimping them yourself ?:D

Wrong as usual. I hope that you cleaned those toilets properly.:-)

Pro Ukraine wrote:

<quoted text>Wrong as usual. I hope that you cleaned those toilets properly.:-)

Why? do you indent to drink from them again ?

Pro Ukraine wrote:

<quoted text>As I already stated your version of the truth is different than mine, and nothing which you state will convince me that mine isn't the correct(Ukrainian) version.
Believe me I have been involved in some long arguments with Poles on this subject on other forums, and nothing they said changed my mind. Some of them were real extremists, the worst are those who claim to be descended from the Schlacta, they claim that Ukrainians don't exist and that Ukraine has no right to exist as a nation, they are real wack jobs.
Of course those debates were full of insults, and I have no desire to repeat that experience.
I generally respect what you write on here, Kubek and I have no desire to create any ill feeling between Ukrainians and Poles on here.

I can see what kind of awkward discussion and situation you want to avoid here - I am not a fan of these either, but when it's to be had I'll have it. Anyway, here it might be too late for that already: no self-respecting and history-aware Pole will let the "Polish occupation and ivasion of Galicia (Malopolska Wschodnia)" bit go just like that and not corrected. Besides, it's better to not leave things unsaid, unclear, as it usually leads to even bitterer disagreements and ill feelings eventually, but rather set and talk things straight instead. That's what I think.
One thing I won't understand, though: how are history and facts here (there's a cornucopia of sources and materials at hand for anyone to study), generally (as some things are corrupted indeed), the matter of anybody's version and persuasion? With the latter, I mean with the interpretation of history and facts, it's usually almost like algebra.

Hetman wrote:

<quoted text>
But it seems as if you want to white wash the Polish side of our history. Ukraine/Rus/Hetmanshchina/Band era etc... were the sole aggressors throughout our past. Hows about the actions of the early Polish kings? the brutality of the Szlachta in destroying the cultural and religious fibers of the Ukrainian people under their sway? Polish leaders under the Austrians? Pilsudski? the Red Poles and their resettlement program? You seem to gloss over these stories. Both sides caused much suffering to one another.

Wanting to take away territories that are composed of the other ethnicity will only perpetuate that evil. Let it go and move on.

I don't think I've glossed over (or wanted to whitewash) the issues as they simply didn't surface out. I'll not dodge them once you specify on them so I know what to comment on:
- Do you mean the two Boleslaws in the 11th century? If so, do you know the reasons for their presence in Kiev?
- What specific brutal and detrimental actions of the szlachta (do you mean Ukrainian as it was understood in the times of the szlachta or Ruthenian?) Do you know there was absolutely no shortage of the szlachta of Ruthenian stock? And all of them? Take Piotr Mohyla (Petro Mohyla), a geniune szlachcic (of the Valachian stock)- what destruction to the said did he do?
- What about Polish leaders under the Austrians? I really have no good guess here.
- Pilsudski? He was a very, very well-oriented and favourable politician to Ukraine and Ukrainians, even after the UVO's failed assassination attempt at him (Lwow, 1921) that came as a huge shock to him but it didn't ruin his feelings in the end.
- The resettlement programme? Do you mean the post-WW2 Operation "Wisla"? Do you know reasons and details for that?

Ah, so when is the moment we call it quits, let the illegal and thievery go and move on? Let me guess: when it suits you best, isn't it?

AbeUG wrote:

<quoted text>
Kubek,
Regardless of who's history is correct regarding the borders of Poland-Ukraine, there is no going back to bringing Poland's borders eastward.
Let's say for arguments sake, Poland was able to push its eastern border 100 miles into Ukraine. Now you will have a larger Poland with a sizeable Ukrainian population that I can't imagine would be too happy. The Ukrainian population will only turn into a fifth column inside Poland and then Poland will go back to the problems it had in 1795 with the non-Polish populations inside Poland collaborating together (with outside nations looking to divide Poland) to undermine Poland as a nation. Do Poles really want that? Do you want that?
Besides why does Poland want a border that is closer to Russia? If Poland somehow took over Western Ukraine, do you really think Russia wouldn't jump into Eastern Ukraine and then eventually make a move on Western Ukraine and then Poland? Think about it.
WWII was a fcuked up period and a lot of crazy and unfair things happened during that time for just about everyone. The outcome for Poland was far from perfect, but then again, RELATIVELY speaking, Poland today is doing better then it has for most of its history. Poland for most of the past 300 years was either off the map or being attacked but psycopathic neigbor nations.
This isn't the case today. So maybe Poland should just appreciate its existence today and just keep trying to improve upon the territory it already has. Poland today demographically is at the biggest it ever was relative to its past enemies Germany and Russia and its fairly homogeneous (knock on wood) which is a good thing.

Oh, we're just exchanging opinions - internet discussions do have some meaning and can affect people in some way, but niether of us is a decision-maker of any kind here :)
I would love to see Malopolska Wschodnia come back to motherland one day, moreover - I'm sure it happens one day as it's happened the previous times. Justice is a bitch, it may take its time but it is inevitable - it's been an integral and important part of Poland and it's not like reaching hand for someone else's possesion. For now, the prospects are a big fat zero (I'm talking about political or any other serious level) and I'm not going to help it with any murky actions other than maintaing the idea and voicing the history of the lands.

Kubek wrote:

<quoted text>
Oh, we're just exchanging opinions - internet discussions do have some meaning and can affect people in some way, but niether of us is a decision-maker of any kind here :)
I would love to see Malopolska Wschodnia come back to motherland one day, moreover - I'm sure it happens one day as it's happened the previous times. Justice is a bitch, it may take its time but it is inevitable - it's been an integral and important part of Poland and it's not like reaching hand for someone else's possesion. For now, the prospects are a big fat zero (I'm talking about political or any other serious level) and I'm not going to help it with any murky actions other than maintaing the idea and voicing the history of the lands.

How do you see Halychyna reuniting with Poland? The p[eople are predominately Ukrainian
and do not to seperate themselves from Ukraine. Perhaps I see
Sanik, Peremysl, etc... reuniting with Ukraine. Maybe the Lemkos
forced from their villages will return and take them back and
reunite with Ukraine. How do you like that thought. I can see
possibly an alliance between Ukraine and Poland (and other Slav countries). Why do some of you Poles covet fellow Slavs lands when your own lands were being stolen by Germans at the same time you were taking your brothers? Too bad you didn't fight the Germans and Swedes with the same ferocity you showed against your own blood. Poland's history would have been much brighter had you done so.

Hetman wrote:

<quoted text>How do you see Halychyna reuniting with Poland? The p[eople are predominately Ukrainian
and do not to seperate themselves from Ukraine.
Perhaps I see
Sanik, Peremysl, etc... reuniting with Ukraine. Maybe the Lemkos
forced from their villages will return and take them back and
reunite with Ukraine. How do you like that thought.
I can see
possibly an alliance between Ukraine and Poland (and other Slav countries). Why do some of you Poles covet fellow Slavs lands when your own lands were being stolen by Germans at the same time you were taking your brothers? Too bad you didn't fight the Germans and Swedes with the same ferocity you showed against your own blood. Poland's history would have been much brighter had you done so.

Oh, there are ways to arrange that in Malopolska Wschodnia and civil.
Perhaps you do, and I can't make you not think this way (isn't it Sjanik/Syanik or Sjanok/Syanok, and Peremysl with a sz/sh, by the way?). But how does this make any sense - I don't know. These are age old (ethnic, if you will; and Przemysl might be the oldest Polish city for that matter) Polish lands that have never been united with Ukraine in the first place.
Same with the lands the Lemkos have traditionally inhabitated for few centuries now - how those (and the Lemkos themselves) have had anything to do with Ukraine, hence what the "reunification" is supposed to mean here, is unclear to me. Also, it would be nice if you learnt why and how the Lemkos (with other inhabitants of the area) ended away from their homes. By the way, they are free to come back there and I don't mind the thought at all - however, that's been hardly a popular option as far as I know (other people involved).
I would like to see such cooperation too (of Slavic people I consider Sorbs our "brothers", others are "cousins" :), but one has to remain reasonable, down to earth with general affairs nonetheless.
"Covet"? How many times shall one repeat the history of Malopolska Wschodnia? How can you covet something that is ultimately yours? And who's viciously and ferociously coveted and took (attempted to take) fellow people's land as it is attested by the current state of things, for one? You are of course wrong as to our taking on Germans and Swedes as well - you may want to check history books for that and get your stories right.

Kubek wrote:

<quoted text>
Oh, there are ways to arrange that in Malopolska Wschodnia and civil.
Perhaps you do, and I can't make you not think this way (isn't it Sjanik/Syanik or Sjanok/Syanok, and Peremysl with a sz/sh, by the way?). But how does this make any sense - I don't know. These are age old (ethnic, if you will; and Przemysl might be the oldest Polish city for that matter) Polish lands that have never been united with Ukraine in the first place.
Same with the lands the Lemkos have traditionally inhabitated for few centuries now - how those (and the Lemkos themselves) have had anything to do with Ukraine, hence what the "reunification" is supposed to mean here, is unclear to me. Also, it would be nice if you learnt why and how the Lemkos (with other inhabitants of the area) ended away from their homes. By the way, they are free to come back there and I don't mind the thought at all - however, that's been hardly a popular option as far as I know (other people involved).
I would like to see such cooperation too (of Slavic people I consider Sorbs our "brothers", others are "cousins" :), but one has to remain reasonable, down to earth with general affairs nonetheless.
"Covet"? How many times shall one repeat the history of Malopolska Wschodnia? How can you covet something that is ultimately yours? And who's viciously and ferociously coveted and took (attempted to take) fellow people's land as it is attested by the current state of things, for one? You are of course wrong as to our taking on Germans and Swedes as well - you may want to check history books for that and get your stories right.

The facts are that while Poland aggressively sought Ukrainian?Rus lands, the Germans were starting to do the same to Poland. The Swedes also. If Poland put half the treasure and energy into combating the Teutons as she did in seizing Rus lands, she would have likely remained a great power throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. The fact is that the people of Eastern Little Poland, as you label the region, are and have always been eastern Slav, i.e. Ukrainian (Rus). Much of my own heritage lies in Halychyna, we are Ukrainian. There is a
fairly large Polish minority (at least there was until the Soviets
took over) which was likely comprised to a fairly large degree of Polonized Ukrainians. What I don't understand is your lack of a desire for Sorb lands still in eastern Germany to be united with Poland. How about it? Afraid of the big, bad German, are we?

Hetman wrote:

<quoted text>The facts are that while Poland aggressively sought Ukrainian?Rus lands, the Germans were starting to do the same to Poland. The Swedes also. If Poland put half the treasure and energy into combating the Teutons as she did in seizing Rus lands, she would have likely remained a great power throughout the 18th and 19th centuries.(...)

Yes, these are facts, only as if they were the "facts" taken from a Soviet textbook.
You make it sound like the Poles invaded the country, where unwanted element there or something alike . Well, here's a reminder for you: the Poles conquered nothing as Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania voluntarily entered a union (Union of Krewo), sealed and developed with other similar following acts and eventually in 1569 (in Lublin) it was the envoys of the southern part of the GDL-part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth who voluntarily and free-willed asked to be joined to the Crown (the Polish part of the PLC). The lands were an integral part of the countries. At the moment of the first union it's estimated that Poland was populated by a bit more than 2 million men while the GDL was shy of a million. Grab a historical atlas and check the situation at that time - two conclusions here: the GDL was freakishly desolated and in a need of fundamental work, plus, it had pesky, lethal neighbours in the south-east/south in Tatars (soon, also Turkey). Hence all the pouring masses of Polish peasants and nobles there. There was plethora of land to take care of from the get-go, enemies to fight as well as opportuinites to make. The very good chances were you and your family could end up in a slave market in Crimea or Constantinople or just loose everything, including your life, at the spot yet people were taking it nonetheless. There was a reason to a Polish saying of the time that "upon making a trip from Gdansk to Kijow you can stay and sleep at family's (relatives') at each stop-over". That was a big civilisational and political project and activity carried by contemporary people of the PLC, I mean not only Poles but also Ruthenians and other peoples, that got better of other interests of the country and, combined with struggles with the Swedes and Muscovites in the north, north-east and east, consumed most of its focus, strength and efforts.
Frankly, I'd rather have had Poland mind our ethnic historic lands only but it wasn't to be with the Polish-Lithuanian union and its aftermath, so speculating on an alternative scenario and pittying the people and opportunities that were buried there and because of that is of no use. It's an integral part of our legacy we can't deny, just like it was for the people in the past. Just after the 7-years war when Russian Empire had Prussia beaten and at its feet, the Empress proposed to swap some Polish lands under Prussia for a bit of Podole or a bit of today's Belarus - it was refused as unacceptable example of bartering. In the mid-war the Soviet Union proposed a population swap, few hundred thousand Poles from the "Marchlewszczyzna" in the Ukrainian SSR for Ruthenians/Ukrainians from Poland (don't know the exact ratio at which the swap was to be made, I guess it was supposed to be a 1:1)- Poland refused it as she claimed sending the Polish citizens to the USSR would be "inhumane". So, instead, these Poles in the Ukrainian SSR were to die in the Great Famine or from Soviet usual ways or, in best case scenario, rot away in the USSR with/like others.

Hetman wrote:

<quoted text>(...) The fact is that the people of Eastern Little Poland, as you label the region, are and have always been eastern Slav, i.e. Ukrainian (Rus). Much of my own heritage lies in Halychyna, we are Ukrainian. There is a
fairly large Polish minority (at least there was until the Soviets
took over) which was likely comprised to a fairly large degree of Polonized Ukrainians.

What I don't understand is your lack of a desire for Sorb lands still in eastern Germany to be united with Poland. How about it? Afraid of the big, bad German, are we?

No, they haven't. The original people of Malopolska Wschodnia have been Polish (Western Slavic, Lechitic), of the Lendian tribe to be precise. History and historic disciplines back that up (look up the sources yourself). One particular interesting example, when Yaroslav the Wise&co. nicked the land for the second time in the 1030s he hared many slaves (captives) and as the Primary Chronicle reports he took and settled his at the river Ros' so as to strenghten the southern border - now these people kept their separate character from the surrounding Ruthenians, Turkics and Rutheno-Turkics until about 15th century which is when they ultimately mingled. But back to Eastern Lesser Poland - the ruthenisation of the land strenghtened and sort of completed after the Tatar invasion, the land was in ruin, the populace decimated and the masses of peoples from various parts of Rus' fleeing the Tatars and their hard yoke settling there ultimately won the land its Ruthenian character. The land earlier had links and features common with the rest of Polish lands Rus' lands didn't have, only the Eastern Church and Varangian slyboots rulers (and their "bouncers") were two factors introducing it into Ruthenian world.
Admittedly, a fair part of Poles there were of Ruthenian stock (nobles and some townspeople) and of many other, who polonised somewhere along the way, but I wouldn't say it got even close to the number of Poles that got ruthenised (especially peasants and petty nobles) or russified (when the Russians came over)- a fact that's been treated with neglect in our historiography.

This is my personal stance I've voiced there, I call the Sorbs "brothers" yet they stand a separate peoples who must govern themselves in their own country. If I were magically in charge of things, later that same day there would've been a free state of Lusatia as well as Polish-Danish landborder in the west :) In reality, the Sorbs have been calling for help with the goverment and politicians of Poland and Czech Republic, with no significant results whatsoever. I don't know about the Czechs but here the Sorbs will only come undone, unfortunately: the muppets we have had wouldn't care less for real interest of Poland and Poles let alone a tiny but proud nation of Sorbs.
Germans are not scary or to be afraid of - they are to be behold and reckoned with as their generally have not been up to any good in the east.