Watson ancestory questions exposes race enigmas

Sorry -- here's the actual address:
http://www.askabiologist.org.uk/punbb/viewtop...

Tir wrote:

<quoted text>
One has to remember that North Africa in Roman times still had a high proportion of European blood and peoples in the area, indeed N. Africa was originally European so mixture of these peoples(I'm not sure to what extent inter-mixture occurred or if on any large scale) would not have altered their European make-up all too much.
In relation to your question of how do we know it's, say African DNA we are looking at - well science has progressed alot in the filed of genetics over the last 30 years, and not only are we able to determine from them whether they are African, European, Asian etc, we are actually able to deduce from the approximate people they came from, such as Celtic form Ireland, Berber from Algeria, Persian from Iran and so on.
Well there is some deadlock between scientists on the 'out of Africa' theory and the 'Multiregional' model. This model states that Homo sapiens evolved as one interconnected species in their respective areas, which I think may have more merit to it. For instance the Cro-magnon was early modern European mankind yet this humankind seems to have no direct or strong link to having decedents in Africa. Also mankind was subject to the same environmental pressures, so its logical that we progressed in the same manner in a general sense.

I thought the Celts were from Scandinavia and had basically overrun and conquered whatever peoples had been forced out to the inhospitable rockpile that was eventually known as Ireland? And didn't I read recently that something like 25% of all modern-day "Irish" were descended from one rapist/king?

DNA Virgin wrote:

<quoted text>
I thought the Celts were from Scandinavia and had basically overrun and conquered whatever peoples had been forced out to the inhospitable rockpile that was eventually known as Ireland? And didn't I read recently that something like 25% of all modern-day "Irish" were descended from one rapist/king?

Mistaken on all counts.. You should try to research these subjects before you comment on them in such a fashion.. I could start into modern American society but I'd be wasting my time and I think you'd be at a loss of what I'd try to point out. May I ask why do you harbour such hatred for Ireland and the Irish? I already have my own feelings why this is but I'd like to hear your own explanation.

On the subject of the Viking invasions, they never intruded deep into the Irish heartland nor encompassed much of our shoreline. They established a few cities and villages but their population gradually receded into the native masses. They adopted an Irish mindset and Irish face, rather than vice versa, indeed there were too few of them to actually have any other options, but their transition into Irishmen was a seamless and voluntary process. Thus their culture and genetics did not permeate far into Irish society, firstly as mentioned, their numbers were relatively small and second they freely introduced and melded themselves into the Irish social structure.

Inhospitable rockpile? You're ignorance is astounding, far from being an.. inhospitable rock-pile.. Irelands traditional industry has been agriculture and herding, also today while this has become secondary to other industry it still plays a major role in the Irish economy; both for domestic markets and international export. In fact, Irish exports in this sector extend throughout Europe and even to the Middle East and even some areas of Asia. May I point out that Ireland also has ample mineral and metal deposits and potential for oil drilling.

Lastly, the 25% of Irish descendants - you'll be thrilled to know that is as fanciful as it is myth. I'm glad I could address your points and may you be grateful I have schooled you in more than simply Ireland, I'm always happy to dispel a little ignorance. Tell me, why do you insist in making all Americans look bad with your insane drivel? Is it your mission to make Americans look like idiots and enforce the typical stereotype? Well, that's about it, I do hope your able to comprehend what I’ve so graciously lessoned you in, good luck.

No thanks...I'll take door number 2...Black and rich. If I can make my own way being Black and Middle class now....Black and rich would be better. Never been White before but respectively speaking...never know what you miss if you never did it. Heck...I'd take rich and Samoan!
As long as health is there...rich and anything.

SpecialK65 wrote:

What..that he's a racist? There are stupid, ignorant people of all races. We have a problem in this country of "breaking the cycle" where minorities are still, by and large, disenfranchised. We need to find a way where they have the same percentage of rich, poor,'smart' & stupid 'people' as White people, and then we can look past skin color and examine each individual's character. And to be honest, I'd still rather be white & middle class than black & rich in this country, as it's twice as hard on black people in this country.

Enough of this science crap now it's time for some good old fashioned folklore, a dash of proverb a dose of the ever reliable common sense/knowledge.

A) It's not surprising that the same race of people who design intelligence test and collect/analyze the data would be *SURPRISE* the very group the data favors. Science is only as unbiased as it's scientist.

Literacy, which is the biggest component of the mostly text based test isn’t even a qualifier for intelligence. What is though is the duo of common sense, or the little detailed things that we come to know through experience and education which is the big picture concept of things (not simply our formal education system but the broader education that can be had through many different channels and experiences). Intelligence is a high dose of both with the ability to see the relationship of the two. Straight academia are often derided as being out of touch with reality in their *ivory towers* and of course average joes are always being accused of not seeing the big picture. The model can be applied to math, science, car repair, business, music, etc.

B) You don't have to go as far back as Rome to pinpoint how the races might have mixed - Just like we have light skinned blacks, a euphemism for "mulatto", we have dark skinned whites, a euphemism for "mulatto who is passing". A mulatto slave has a baby by her white master and you produce a child has only ¼ African Ancestry and it could be untraceable to the naked eye. Most of the African Ameiricans in this country probably have a fair amount of Caucasian blood in them while I wouldn’t be surprised to find a large number of Caucasians with some African blood. Also, you know what they used to say before DNA "mamas baby, daddies maybe". Also wealth has always gone a long way toward making the impossible happen like miracle (wink wink) babies for infertile couples and such. It only takes one dark family secret in the chain and just like that you go from being the great great great great great grandson of James Madison to being the great great great great great grandson of James Madison’s stable hand and 14 year old milk maid. I’m sure many a blue blood would be disappointed to find that their DNA was no match for that long lost relative that came over on the Mayflower.

c) There is a great African parable that parallels the story of Adam & Eve in which the part of Eden, the land of plenty and of all species is played by Mother Africa and Adam & Eve, born albinos, with age become aware of their nakedness (un-skinned interpreted as unclothed or naked) so they hide themselves. Eventually because of their weakness in the face of the sun (sin) they are cast out of Africa and forced to fend for themselves, eventually seeking shelter in the north, where the lack of sunlight and heat are a more suitable if harsher environment.

True.

Neil wrote:

I think it is ironic that the same people who argue that we are all the same race are the ones who strongly support affirmative action and other racial preference programs.

Actually it's our mission to iratate the Irish.

Tir wrote:

<quoted text>
Mistaken on all counts.. You should try to research these subjects before you comment on them in such a fashion.. I could start into modern American society but I'd be wasting my time and I think you'd be at a loss of what I'd try to point out. May I ask why do you harbour such hatred for Ireland and the Irish? I already have my own feelings why this is but I'd like to hear your own explanation.
On the subject of the Viking invasions, they never intruded deep into the Irish heartland nor encompassed much of our shoreline. They established a few cities and villages but their population gradually receded into the native masses. They adopted an Irish mindset and Irish face, rather than vice versa, indeed there were too few of them to actually have any other options, but their transition into Irishmen was a seamless and voluntary process. Thus their culture and genetics did not permeate far into Irish society, firstly as mentioned, their numbers were relatively small and second they freely introduced and melded themselves into the Irish social structure.
Inhospitable rockpile? You're ignorance is astounding, far from being an.. inhospitable rock-pile.. Irelands traditional industry has been agriculture and herding, also today while this has become secondary to other industry it still plays a major role in the Irish economy; both for domestic markets and international export. In fact, Irish exports in this sector extend throughout Europe and even to the Middle East and even some areas of Asia. May I point out that Ireland also has ample mineral and metal deposits and potential for oil drilling.
Lastly, the 25% of Irish descendants - you'll be thrilled to know that is as fanciful as it is myth. I'm glad I could address your points and may you be grateful I have schooled you in more than simply Ireland, I'm always happy to dispel a little ignorance. Tell me, why do you insist in making all Americans look bad with your insane drivel? Is it your mission to make Americans look like idiots and enforce the typical stereotype? Well, that's about it, I do hope your able to comprehend what I’ve so graciously lessoned you in, good luck.

Heck, I'm heinz 57. But I'll take rich.

bond007 wrote:

<quoted text>
Me, Black and Rich any day. With that kind of money I would not have to put up with "Racists" because I would have a barricade. You would never know I exist but will have all that I want.

Folks, its all clinal variation...

Rhonin wrote:

Actually it's our mission to iratate the Irish.
<quoted text>

I think your mission is to live up to the idiot stereotype world media has given you..

Tir wrote:

<quoted text>
Mistaken on all counts.. You should try to research these subjects before you comment on them in such a fashion.

Lastly, the 25% of Irish descendants - you'll be thrilled to know that is as fanciful as it is myth. I'm glad I could address your points and may you be grateful I have schooled you in more than simply Ireland, I'm always happy to dispel a little ignorance. Tell me, why do you insist in making all Americans look bad with your insane drivel? Is it your mission to make Americans look like idiots and enforce the typical stereotype? Well, that's about it, I do hope your able to comprehend what I’ve so graciously lessoned you in, good luck.

You want research?

How about this study from the
National Geographic, reported on in 2006?

“Up to three million men living around the world today could be descended from a fifth-century Irish king, according to a new study.

Research suggests as many as 1 in 12 men in Ireland carry the genes of Niall of the Nine Hostages, bolstering claims that the ancient warlord founded a dynasty that dominated Ireland for centuries.

Niall had 12 sons, according to folklore, and took nine key hostages, including Saint Patrick, as way to subdue opponents and consolidate power.

In nothwest Ireland one in five men bore the same distinctive genetic marker, the team found.“

Sort of like King Richard and his sons and nephews.“If you’re not family you’re dead to me”.

The Celts? Actually from southern Europe originally, northern Italy, the Iberian Penisula. The Irish language was BROUGHT TO Ireland, by the celts who were forced from their original lands farther and farther away from the ‘good’ soil and climates, by the Germans, Romans, and pretty much everyone else, until they wound up pushed against the cold sea in Ireland where they intermingled with the original peoples already there, where their language and some of their culture survived.

You should read up on them, I got my info from Wikipedia. It’s there I also found this interesting history on what being a Celtic man was all about:

“According to Aristole, most "beligerent nations" are strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because they openly preferred male lovers (Politics II 1269b). H. D. Rankin in Celts and the Classical World notes that "Athenaeus echoes this comment (603a) and so does Ammianus (30.9). It seems to be the general opinion of antiquity" In book VIII of his Deipnosophists, the Roman Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus, repeating assertions made by Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC, wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together and "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused" (Diod 5:32). Rankin argues that the ultimate source of these assertions is likely to be Poseidonius.

There are no direct sources from ancient Celtic cultures to confirm or contradict these statements. Rankin speculates that these authors may be recording male "bonding rituals".”

I can vouch for the DNA Virgin. I'm an anthropology major working on my masters in western European culture. Although not all of Wikipedia is credible a lot of it is. That article is for the most part true with some details i'm not sure about. greek and roman historians were notorious for getting different people confused.

im not irish at, but its so culturally rich that it has always fascinated me. my family is mexican and of celt-iberian stock (DNA tested).

as for ireland being a rockpile?

when the first human inhabitants arrived there they found fertile rich pastures and forests filled with beasties, they thought they had discovered paradise.

Jared wrote:

Races exist. Pure races don't exist.

There is only one race - The Human Race!