The lessons of aceh and e timor for the deep south

the lessons not only for the government, but for separatist leader as well, they should carefully decide and take a wise decision whether its better to get independence or just go along with fully autonomous region.

It is not as you argue my friend. I would rather prefer to see you propose some constructive opinions why you argue that way. Don't just argue it according to your gut. The case of Aceh of accepting the option of autonomous region because several reasongs. firstly, it has a lot to do with the tsunami crisis, secondly the culturally aceh share the same believes and culture as most the rest or the majority population of Indonesia. The fight in aceh were mainly based on the fight to be fully recognised one's own right for self governing, freedom of express and freedom to believe, in which I believe culture of Acehness is mainly influenced by Muslims religions. I also strongly believe that acehness movement for Independence were not worldwidely recognised and approved. Unlike, Aceh, Timor Leste has it's own history. Culturally we are less in common, though that over the last 24 years of Indonesian occupation we also adopt some cultural influence from Indonesia, the very obvious is the language, food and musics. Unlike, Aceh, TL were determined to fight for Independence with no compromise. Aceh, were also part of the one of those several Indonesian firstly formed province that signed and declare independence from the Dutch. So, don't too mixed up. As in TL we say 'don't mix pudding with you main meal' because it will never work that way.

good argument.

makay costa wrote:

It is not as you argue my friend. I would rather prefer to see you propose some constructive opinions why you argue that way. Don't just argue it according to your gut. The case of Aceh of accepting the option of autonomous region because several reasongs. firstly, it has a lot to do with the tsunami crisis, secondly the culturally aceh share the same believes and culture as most the rest or the majority population of Indonesia. The fight in aceh were mainly based on the fight to be fully recognised one's own right for self governing, freedom of express and freedom to believe, in which I believe culture of Acehness is mainly influenced by Muslims religions. I also strongly believe that acehness movement for Independence were not worldwidely recognised and approved. Unlike, Aceh, Timor Leste has it's own history. Culturally we are less in common, though that over the last 24 years of Indonesian occupation we also adopt some cultural influence from Indonesia, the very obvious is the language, food and musics. Unlike, Aceh, TL were determined to fight for Independence with no compromise. Aceh, were also part of the one of those several Indonesian firstly formed province that signed and declare independence from the Dutch. So, don't too mixed up. As in TL we say 'don't mix pudding with you main meal' because it will never work that way.

However the people of South Thailand also feel that they have different race, historical and cultural background for reason that they fight for independence.

you may have that argument, but one thing for sure, if you talk about culture, you only try to see it after portuguese arrived on island of timor, if you argue, that east timor (majority from tetum tribes) is different with the west side of timor (indonesia province), most of them atoni, so you have to agree with them, if one day, occusi enclave want to join with their brother on west timor region, because they belong to atoni tribes, and it is their right.

anyway, all about this culture difference was not an issue, like we in hawaii here, never ask for independence although we were happen to be the only kingdom in US soil, and yes, it was annexed by US, and yes, we have some people trying to bring up this culture issue, but as long as we can live in prosperity and freedom, no question being asked for that independence.

so this is a question for you, if its happen during Indonesia occupation, your region became safe and prosper, do you really ask for getting independent ?

makay costa wrote:

It is not as you argue my friend. I would rather prefer to see you propose some constructive opinions why you argue that way. Don't just argue it according to your gut. The case of Aceh of accepting the option of autonomous region because several reasongs. firstly, it has a lot to do with the tsunami crisis, secondly the culturally aceh share the same believes and culture as most the rest or the majority population of Indonesia. The fight in aceh were mainly based on the fight to be fully recognised one's own right for self governing, freedom of express and freedom to believe, in which I believe culture of Acehness is mainly influenced by Muslims religions. I also strongly believe that acehness movement for Independence were not worldwidely recognised and approved. Unlike, Aceh, Timor Leste has it's own history. Culturally we are less in common, though that over the last 24 years of Indonesian occupation we also adopt some cultural influence from Indonesia, the very obvious is the language, food and musics. Unlike, Aceh, TL were determined to fight for Independence with no compromise. Aceh, were also part of the one of those several Indonesian firstly formed province that signed and declare independence from the Dutch. So, don't too mixed up. As in TL we say 'don't mix pudding with you main meal' because it will never work that way.

CRAZY COMMENT

"makay costa wrote:"
It is not as you argue my friend. I would rather prefer to see you propose some constructive opinions why you argue that way. Don't just argue it according to your gut. The case of Aceh of accepting the option of autonomous region because several reasongs. firstly, it has a lot to do with the tsunami crisis, secondly the culturally aceh share the same believes and culture as most the rest or the majority population of Indonesia. The fight in aceh were mainly based on the fight to be fully recognised one's own right for self governing, freedom of express and freedom to believe, in which I believe culture of Acehness is mainly influenced by Muslims religions. I also strongly believe that acehness movement for Independence were not worldwidely recognised and approved. Unlike, Aceh, Timor Leste has it's own history. Culturally we are less in common, though that over the last 24 years of Indonesian occupation we also adopt some cultural influence from Indonesia, the very obvious is the language, food and musics. Unlike, Aceh, TL were determined to fight for Independence with no compromise. Aceh, were also part of the one of those several Indonesian firstly formed province that signed and declare independence from the Dutch. So, don't too mixed up. As in TL we say 'don't mix pudding with you main meal' because it will never work that way."

DIFFERENT CULTURE,HISTORY,RELIGY WASN'T REASON TO FIGHT.
MY QUESTION IS WHAT THE LIFE PURPOSE?...prosperous & stability.
what's the meaning of independent if the people poor, chaos & instability?

heheheehe....,

Joy, if only things can easy as you can imagine. Before, Answering your questions, I would like to ask you. Why do you think Indonesia wanted to get Independence from the Dutch. The reasons that i put up there was only some of them. Have you ever heard of the problem in Belgium right now? It was more than six months the Belgium parliament was not able to form a government. Because none majority winner. The people from the Flemish part want to get Independence and be separated from the French part, though the french part still want the unity. It has become huge problem right. The only different is that they do not engage war among them.
Cultural differences is one the reasons that keep people want to be unique from others. Religious believe is anather. Of course in Timor Leste, beside these differences the suffering that we had under the Indonesian Military regimes was another reason that motivated us wanted to get independence. I am in East Timorese, I was born, grew up and witnessed every moment of the struggle for the Independence. I knew the reason of what you we fight for, wherease you guys tell me that you know better, doesn't it sounds very funny. By saying this, once has to take into consideration that the problem in each country is different.

Again i gold you million times, we cannot perform mirecle like Jesus or Mahomad or whoever prophets that you believe in. When we get Independence, East Timor was burnt down to the ground. We have to build everything from zero. This things takes time, yes it is true that we still have economic problems to be solved, political crisis that need to be sorted out. But this is normal for a young and new born country that which we inherited from nothing. When we get independence, we were also be aware of all the problems that we will face, but we are determined.

Before, you talk a lot i suggest you look at your own country Indonesia that has gained Indepence for more 50 years, why do you still have crisis in Irian Jaya, Maluku, Aceh and even within Jawa itself, for instance things like Kasus Lumpur Lapindo, Kasus Muhamadiyah in 2006. I have also been to Jakarta, Bandung and Bali, there are millions of people also still leave poverty and over tones of rubish in the markets. There are a lot of robers and thiefs in Jakarta that ones as a foreigner always need to be aware of. If you reflect it really well, out of the 270 million you might also realise that millions of your own countryman still struggle with their lifely and finding a placte of rise to be put on the table.

Like any other country in the world, our objectives are to be prosperous nation and this does not come easy, we need time and we hard works. Sometimes we encounter hardships but we will get there.

Ace, It is a good questions.But like I said the conflicts and Independence movements in every country and every region has its uniqueness. In Timor Leste culture become one part of our own uniqueness that also encourage our struggle apart from the hardship life under the Indonesian Military regime. Unlike Timor Leste, I believe that in the case of Hawaii, after the US invasion the local kings had a peace agreement but the USA mainland, part of the deal were Hawaii beccome USA and in return the people of Hawaii enjoy cultural conservation.

Of couse when you talk about the culture of Timor Leste, besides talking about Timor Leste original culture, a 450 years of Portuguese influence something that we do not deny. during this period East Timor was strongly influenced by the Portuguese culture, something we ourselves having hard to distinguish whether it's our own original culture or has been adopted. Having saying that we also do not deny that during the period of 24 years of the Indonesian occupation, we also got lots of Influence from the Indonesian culture, specially language and food. During the Indonesian occupation the Indonesian government try to Javanesize East Timor through a program called:'Transmigrais', a government migration program. People from Java were moved to East Timor for a new settlement. The very well known place at time was called: Lokasi Transmigrasi in Welaluhu, Same district and Suai district. During the Indonesian occupation almost about a third of populations were from Java and other part of Indonesia.

ace wrote:

you may have that argument, but one thing for sure, if you talk about culture, you only try to see it after portuguese arrived on island of timor, if you argue, that east timor (majority from tetum tribes) is different with the west side of timor (indonesia province), most of them atoni,- so this is a question for you, if its happen during Indonesia occupation, your region became safe and prosper, do you really ask for getting independent ?
<quoted text>

!!!!!

Ace & Joy,

There is an academic definition called Cultural Relativism - it means, understanding the ways of other cultures and not judging these practices according to one's own cultural ways.

Timor Leste, for over 450 years stood alone, in Southeast Asian region, struggled to deal with the Portuguese presence there! Whether bad or good, they survived without any claim from no one – east, west, north or south without any attempt to the least define “this cultural relativism.” Indeed, it was over 450 years of ‘untouched’ history – Suddenly, in 7 Dec. 1975, Indonesia (Suharto) at the request from America (Nixon/Ford) administration, decides to invade Timor. Suharto agreed because it was an easy way for him to work on his soon to be -‘the so called transmigration policy as makay costa have cited’ Why not? It’s an open road from the Cold War! Indonesia =(American puppet).

Going back to cultural relativism, for over ‘600 to 650 years,’(Gulbenkian Library, Lisbon) the region of Tatamailau, and the Suro people controlled the entire region from Tatamailau and Kablak in East Timor through to the areas of Oe-Hali, deep within the regions of West Timor. There were no state boundaries before the mid 1800s. Our ancestors (ruled) that region until today; there is a place which the so calle capital of that region called ALAS. There is two Alas,– one in the West Timor and one in the EAST Timor, and our ancestors were and we’re still the rulers for this rigion, and owners of this peace of history. You see, the WHITE man arrived in the mountainous area of SURO in the mid 1800s, after two and half CENTURIES, they could not make it up to that region – the region of Suro. The “Liurais” Rulers of Suro controled all that region, including the “atonis.” It was tribal survival at its best, the Portuguese and the Dutch did not have the answer to conquer Ramelau until its owners allowed them to.

Its an honourable thing to be Independent, it’s not about the properity alone, it’s about “principals of a RACE and Culture” and it’s not Racism nor an academic definition, it’s an ISLAND isolated within the Southeast Asia wanted to stand alone, and It’s his dignified and divined right to do so! That was the reason why, we the Timorese fouth for our Independence.

We chose not to be subjected under a tyrannic cultural concept. It saddens me to see your view -

ace wrote:

”like we in Hawaii here, never ask for independence although we were happen to be the only kingdom in US soil, and yes, it was annexed by US, and yes, we have some people trying to bring up this culture issue, but as long as we can live in prosperity and freedom, no question being asked for that independence” <quoted text>

- one would ask, where is your self respect and your dignity?

Money can buy prosperity, but you can never buy Freedom, you will have to earn it, you have to fight like we did, thousands of my people pour their blood for our independence, and we will never ever let that happen again. Indeed there are thorni roads ahead of us, however, we are determined to “perhaps buy that prosperity, now that we have our freedom – nothing is Impossible.

A bit cliché, but as they say “Rome wasn’t buit in a day” we will get there,

Viva Timor Leste

Nehek wrote:

<quoted text>
- one would ask, where is your self respect and your dignity?
Money can buy prosperity, but you can never buy Freedom, you will have to earn it, you have to fight like we did, thousands of my people pour their blood for our independence, and we will never ever let that happen again. Indeed there are thorni roads ahead of us, however, we are determined to “perhaps buy that prosperity, now that we have our freedom – nothing is Impossible.
A bit cliché, but as they say “Rome wasn’t buit in a day” we will get there,
Viva Timor Leste

are you high on something or just too f**k up under hundreds year of other country rule ?,

your dignity value is so outdated.

read hawaii history before questioning our dignity and pride, for sure we have them a lot compared to you,

if independence is your great value, where were you people back in 1900's era ? no body heard any strugle from your region, the only news that I heard only when in 1970's, your friends Horta did strike because of poor job environment in dili hotel where he work, thats it!!...

all country around the world back in those years, 1900-1950 did strugle for their independence, but you guys only complaining about poor job condition ? and now you say it is good to have freedom because of the reason that you said, who will going to believe that ?

admit it, you want independent because you just tired being poor and under development.

as you said, rome wasnt built in one day, but again, who cares with rome anymore ?, it took 100years to build and now it just part of the history.

It seems to me that my friend ACE have a very poor understanding of how people put forward their opinion in an academic and constructive manners. All he is able to think of is how to swear.
It also seems that though he acts like he knows a lot about Timor Leste, but in fact his understanding is very poor. In 1700s to 1800s the portuguese rules in Timor Leste were mostly simbolic rules. There were no military presence and most of the central administration were run by Catholic Monks. The local kings still have their power to rule as usual. Before white colonial rules in south east asia, the spanish sailor, Magalhaes in his expeditional reports mentioned that during his visit to the kingdom of Majapahit, the largest empire of South East Asia, he saw marchants from Timur (East) who trade Sandalwood and honeys in Majapahit. It means that though more 600 years ago Timor did have a good diplamatic relationship with Majapahit.
In 1912 was the first and the biggest rebellions against the Portuguese colonial rules led by the local King, Dom Boaventura which was based in Alas, Same. It took more than a year before he was defeated the Portugues governor Celestino in Dili and his armies. The rebellions in Viqueque led by the kingdom of Luca. The rebellions in Baucau by local king or Liurai named Bure-Laikana. And the 1950s rebellion in Uatulari, in which hundreds of suspected young East Timorese were removed and sent to exiles in Mozambique and Angola.


For us Independent is a pride and honour. Before the Indonesian Invasion East Timor was one of the most tourist destination in South East Asia. After the Indonesian Invasion, East Timor was isolated from from the outside world to cover up the Indonsian military regimes actitivities. In early to mid 1990s the under the former governor Mario Carascalao protest and request East Timor was slowly reopened to the outside to foreign visitors but with a very limited access. over the period of almost 20 years of isolation cause lots of damage to the market of tourisms industries in Timor Leste. Not to mention as the 1975 invasion and the 1999 crisis were the TNI and their backed militias launched their barbaric and animalistic campagnes by burning all the infrastructures into the ground and turning Timor Leste into a killing ground.
But again, these are something in past. We try to put them in the past.

....to be continued.....

.. continue...

Though we are a very new and young country, we already to do a lot of things. We are able to recover and rebuild our infrastructures. Establishing new administrations, conduct free and fair elections in which a lot of countries in the world are still having problems with. every year we are able to send thousands of young children to study around the world. If we compare to Indonesian, nowadays the street vendors are able to afford sending their children to Universities. Despite these achievements we still realize that many challanges still lies a head to be faced.

As Nehek has cited,'Rome was not built in one day', in which my friend ACE totally misundestood the actual meaning of this expression, for us the road towards a prosperity is still long to go. This is something we are fighting for, we are determined and we will get there. It took more 300 years for the USA to be a superpower country, it took more than 100 years for Australia to be it is today. It has taken more than 50 years for Indonesia to be still as developing country, yet it is still struggling with its democracy and millions of people are still living in the poverty. We, the people of Timor Leste are a dreamers but we are the people of princips and realistics.

So, for us the hardhip life todays is temporary, what we need is time, and soon or later we will to the promise the promise land, prosperity of Timor Leste. It took us 24 years of struggles to get Independence, It might take sometimes as well for us to reach to prosper life. This is a new burden for us to carry.

makay costa wrote:

It seems to me that my friend ACE have a very poor understanding of how people put forward their opinion in an academic and constructive manners. All he is able to think of is how to swear.....to be continued.....

!!!!!

Irmão,

Lalika liga ida, hussik ba, assu oan hatenu,

Rahun diak ba imi hotu iha Oslo

Cheers

ace wrote:

<quoted text>
are you high on something or just too f**k up under hundreds year of other country rule ?,
your dignity value is so outdated. it took 100years to build and now it just part of the history.

!!!

Aloha,

No - I am not high from that dumb and witted comment you have given me - Although, I believe you are!–If I am not mistaken, its from the Nuclear RADIATION from AMERICAN nuclear tests in the BIKINI attols and from the polluted pacific-air from Marshall Island nuclear tests.(USA Nuclear dump)

Indeed, if you are happy to see your people put on grass skirts and do dances to welcome people from the mainland (USA) and tourists, then it’s ok by me - because it’s a free world - and you are entitled to your rights and beliefs.– However, I would called it “prostitution of a cultura”- But hey, who am I to say that – It’s a free world!

One thing I know - we the TIMORESE do know about Timor Leste’s ‘History’ and its important details – we know what we are talking about – the accounts from me and makay costa are legitimate citations from sons and daughters of Timorese people.– It’s not something that you would google search and plagiarizes to full someone – then again, we really don’t care if you understand it or not! It’s not that important!

If you are base your arguments from this piece of “whatever you call it”

ace wrote:

<quoted text>if independence is your great value, where were you people back in 1900's era ? no body heard any strugle from your region, the only news that I heard only when in 1970's, your friends Horta did strike because of poor job environment in dili hotel where he work, thats it!!...
all country around the world back in those years, 1900-1950 did strugle for their independence, but you guys only complaining about poor job condition ? and now you say it is good to have freedom because of the reason that you said, who will going to believe that?

- Well, I feel very sorry about your luck of knowledge and poor taste of academic research - nevertheless please do try some contemporary reading materials about Timor from one of the world best known intellectuals ‘Noam Chomsky’(he is an American)- or some writings from a good friend called John Pilger (all written in English, just to make it easy for you)- or perhaps from some Portuguese and Timorese scholars, if you know another credible language like some of us do!

Hope to see you around,

May the powers of Kikawa and Papanui be with you!

Cheers

TL has never been alone someone was watching and waiting for 450 years to kick ass and take names you only thought you were alone i waited and against all odds and won i am not finished i want to kill my enemys and take there goods and give them to the poor and hungry with god by my side and fire from the sky

keny wrote:

TL has never been alone someone was watching and waiting for 450 years to kick ass and take names you only thought you were alone i waited and against all odds and won i am not finished i want to kill my enemys and take there goods and give them to the poor and hungry with god by my side and fire from the sky

fiu kotu nia koment mak hanesan nee...,