No Muslim can think of profaning holy Prophet (PBUH): Altaf

'Even minorities living in Pakistan cannot blaspheme against the holy Prophet , hence I appeal to religious leaders of every shade of religious persuasion to stop their demonstrations after clear assurances from Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani that no amendment is being made in the blasphemy law,' Altaf said while talking to an assembly of MQM ... Full Story
chuy

Las Vegas, NV

#18367 May 7, 2012
PAKIStAN is HELL wrote:
PAKISTAN is the only country which is bringing DISGRACE to the religion. Many islamic countries believe in LIVE AND LET LIVE. Pakistan is supporting terrorism, super-corrupted leaders, rotten and degraded curriculum; hence a total failed state. THE ROOT PROBLEM FOR THE HONORED ISLAM is PAKISTAN.
THEY DO WRONG IN THE NAME OF RELIGION, its a sign of coward.
..This is unfair....Pakistan is poor and uneducated ...they are victims ...of imported and financed Saudi wahhabism ...
Jake Bradock

Capalaba, Australia

#18368 May 7, 2012
Yes......we know, muslims are always the victom, even when there sawing the head off an innocent person there crying the victom......what a joke.
chuy

Las Vegas, NV

#18369 May 7, 2012
xXNazir_ShahXx wrote:
<quoted text> yehh im muslim i believe you shouldnt have children you cant support by your own means, honour killings, domestic violence and arranged mariages should be harshly punished and new generation muslims should spread information on why it is wrong to force women into marriage and how honour killing is completely haram .
..I disagree ...only God gives life ...if I do not have the means to support this "gift" I need assistance ...as abortion ..is murder ...

honor killing is murder..
domestic violence ....if you choose to stay in the relationship ..I tend to blame the victim...forgive me ..
arranged marriage ...doesn't happen in my culture ...but it does not mean that it is wrong ...

my understanding is Islam is a culture of "shame" ....Christanity is a culture of "guilt" ...

Both are from the One True God ...mankind's judge ...
chuy

Las Vegas, NV

#18370 May 7, 2012
ilovedesigirls wrote:
We should force Muslims in the West and India to pay a special tax for all the nuisances they cause. And no more welfare to pay for their twelve kids. Let them have a taste of their own dough. Propagate this. Twitter this. Like this. Wake up people.
...I can not ..first we have laws against this ...also 12 muslims born in my country is a benefit ..they will love God and America ...children make a nation strong ....look at China ...poor as shit ...if not for their populace ...
chuy

Las Vegas, NV

#18371 May 7, 2012
ilovedesigirls wrote:
<quoted text>
Hmm taqqiya?
..you are quite astute ...for an atheist ...I'm very impressed ...and a little frightened ...

as I know we are not allies ....
chuy

Las Vegas, NV

#18372 May 7, 2012
Whoops wrote:
<quoted text>
Not true. Zakat was always a voluntary contribution and levels of jigya varied. Non believers always made to pay far more. why lie? Real GOD , I believe , will punish you., MUQ.~~OH! MUQ!
please ..don't be so hard on "MUQ" ...I suspect he is truly a "bacha bazi" ...for these wahhabis ...It they also ..who will be punished ....You posted to "Neville" ..God test us ...whilst we are here for a "short while" ...???...and then you exhort ...me to practice "YOGA" ...you are a very deep and complicated man "Whoops" .....now ..none can say weather or not you believe in reincarnations ...???

“Lextalionis”

Since: Apr 12

Chicago, Illinois

#18373 May 7, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Jizya was not just another tax like income tax and sales tax. It was based on religion. Non muslims had to pay their muslim rulers jizya tax. Only those who accepted islam got exemptions from this tax. Many people who wanted exemption from this tax, converted to islam.
Jizya is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens who were males and had reached the age of the military service. In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith and enjoy a measure of communal autonomy and not pay the zakat taxes obligatory upon Muslim citizens. In theory it was same as taxation in Jewish states - In Matthew 17:24-27 we learn that even Jesus did pay a religion tax:
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
"Yes, he does," he replied.
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Muslim invaders defeated many non muslim countries and forced the people of those countries to pay this inhuman tax. Only Akbar the great lifted jizya tax over non muslums. He was secular. In civil society no religious tax is charged now. This tax was against social harmony.
Members of some religious congregations in Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Sweden, some parts of Switzerland and several other countries are still paying a Jizya styled tax, called Church Tax. And we are here talking about world's most advanced countries.

Why target Islam on this ground?

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#18374 May 7, 2012
RepubIican wrote:
<quoted text>
Jizya is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens who were males and had reached the age of the military service. In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith and enjoy a measure of communal autonomy and not pay the zakat taxes obligatory upon Muslim citizens. In theory it was same as taxation in Jewish states - In Matthew 17:24-27 we learn that even Jesus did pay a religion tax:
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
"Yes, he does," he replied.
<quoted text>
Members of some religious congregations in Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Sweden, some parts of Switzerland and several other countries are still paying a Jizya styled tax, called Church Tax. And we are here talking about world's most advanced countries.
Why target Islam on this ground?
A Republican in Chicago? Is that legal?

:)

“Lextalionis”

Since: Apr 12

Chicago, Illinois

#18375 May 7, 2012
Ravenclaw wrote:
<quoted text>
A Republican in Chicago? Is that legal?
:)
As much legal as a black man occupying a house meant for the whites !
(Obama - White House)!
Dak-original

Reading, UK

#18376 May 8, 2012
chuy wrote:
<quoted text>
..This is unfair....Pakistan is poor and uneducated ...they are victims ...of imported and financed Saudi wahhabism ...
It is the educated classes which believe that the agenda of jihadism was okay and so the poor plebs are indoctrinated as if that agenda should be the uppermost in the list. Few sane voices are being aired on tV but who is listening when the electorate has been subject to mis-education. Even today, the plebs in Pakistan think that all violence in Pakistan is perpetrated by India! These lot will then think Mumbai 26/11 was justified.
Dak-original

Reading, UK

#18377 May 8, 2012
chuy wrote:
<quoted text>please ..don't be so hard on "MUQ" ...I suspect he is truly a "bacha bazi" ...for these wahhabis ...It they also ..who will be punished ....You posted to "Neville" ..God test us ...whilst we are here for a "short while" ...???...and then you exhort ...me to practice "YOGA" ...you are a very deep and complicated man "Whoops" .....now ..none can say weather or not you believe in reincarnations ...???
No complications! I do not believe reincarnation is a fact. I may be proven wrong one day. Religions are inventions of humans but that does not mean all things discovered or nurtured by a belief faith followers over the years are useless. Yoga is a discovery which has been confirmed by modern medics as beneficial.
I have also stated it is healthy to believe since our psyche and brain developed during evolution when belief was a strut for humans in dire times. However, I ,myself , do not believe in religions. My belief is then restricted to GOD. Again, I may be proved wrong one day long time after I have or even when human specis have perished. However, I tend to think that there has to be something behind it all: life, matter, physical laws, etc. I believe that Real GOD planned all and since we will never be able to unravel GOd's mysteries fully ever, all we can do is make things better, value add to life and show compassion and make a positive input whilst here.
kg is crook
Dak-original

Reading, UK

#18378 May 8, 2012
RepubIican wrote:
<quoted text>
Jizya is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens who were males and had reached the age of the military service. In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith and enjoy a measure of communal autonomy and not pay the zakat taxes obligatory upon Muslim citizens. In theory it was same as taxation in Jewish states - In Matthew 17:24-27 we learn that even Jesus did pay a religion tax:
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
"Yes, he does," he replied.
<quoted text>
Members of some religious congregations in Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Sweden, some parts of Switzerland and several other countries are still paying a Jizya styled tax, called Church Tax. And we are here talking about world's most advanced countries.
Why target Islam on this ground?
You know that church levies are not the same as tax and jizya tax is the type unique to Islam. It was tax not for tolerance purposes as you are trying to portray. Some ciy states paid regular monies so that they are left alone.(e.g. Dubornvik). Non-believers could not be taken to fight jihadist campaigns unless they were somehow converted.
Dak-original

Reading, UK

#18379 May 8, 2012
Ravenclaw wrote:
<quoted text>
A Republican in Chicago? Is that legal?
:)
A republican would be democrat (generic!) but this one would, perhaps, support a shariat based theocracy if it was possible.
skeptic

Bethlehem, PA

#18380 May 8, 2012
Dak-original wrote:
<quoted text>
You know that church levies are not the same as tax and jizya tax is the type unique to Islam. It was tax not for tolerance purposes as you are trying to portray. Some ciy states paid regular monies so that they are left alone.(e.g. Dubornvik). Non-believers could not be taken to fight jihadist campaigns unless they were somehow converted.
Muslims converted for Jihad by Extortion.
The savage truth of Mohammed and the savagery of Muslims to protect their lies:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/004-j...
Dak-original

United States

#18381 May 8, 2012
Temple prostitution still alive in India
By Kate Taylor

Posted Jan 11, 2012

Imagine living in a society in which you are judged by your station in life, determined by your birth, rather than by your individual worth or accomplishments. As a member of the lowest rung of society, you can barely keep food on the table for your wife and two daughters.
When your wife becomes ill after giving birth to a third daughter who, unlike the son you had hoped for, will be an unbearable financial burden, you have only one choice: You must dedicate your daughter to the goddess as a devadasis, a temple prostitute.

By dedicating your baby, you have given her a profession and a way to obtain food for her family. Perhaps the goddess will now show favor to your family, sparing your wife’s life and filling her womb with the long-awaited boy child. Your daughter’s sacrifice is small compared to your entire family’s alternative fate of starvation. If her body is the price the goddess asks, it must be paid.
In India, the devadasi (day-vah-dah-see) system, a Hindu practice of temple prostitution, has existed for more than 5,000 years, says David Dass, executive director of the India Gospel League. In the state of Karnataka, where he and his wife live, starving families dedicate hundreds of girls each year to the goddess Yellamma. The children are forced to begin a life of prostitution at age 11 or 12.
“From the very beginning, they’re being exploited as babies,” says Annette Romick, a humanitarian aid worker in India.“Then, when they hit maturity, their bodies are exploited by men. Even when their bodies are no longer desirable to men, they are still exploited and abused because that stigma is on them. They can never escape from it. It’s a trap that they’re stuck in; it’s a living hell that they’re experiencing.”
The word devadasi literally translates to “god’s female servant.” Parents usually choose to dedicate their daughters as infants to the goddess Yellamma, in hopes of gaining the goddess’ favor or easing a financial burden.

Once dedicated, a girl is considered to be married to the goddess and is never allowed to marry a man. When the girl reaches physical maturity, she is forced to begin her life as a prostitute.

“Since 1982, the devadasi system has been banned by the government of India and Karnataka,” says Joseph Paul, a Christian pastor ministering among devadasis.“But there are underground practices – nobody knows how they practice and how they dedicate.”

Our parents gave us birth and threw us on the street. Men come and use us, finish their job and go.Sugandha,* former devadasis

Because the devadasis practice has gone underground, the women work mostly from their homes, only visiting the temple to beg money from worshippers. Many of the prostitutes are trafficked to the red light districts of Mumbai, Pune, Bangalore and other large cities.

“Our parents gave us birth and threw us on the street. Men come and use us, finish their job and go,” says Sugandha, a former devadasis receiving assistance from a non-governmental organization.
In the Hindu religion, devadasis have hope for a better life only through the cycle of rebirth. Few devadasis have ever heard the name of Jesus Christ who offers hope for this life and for eternity.

“Their lives have been ruined, and they feel like trash that’s just been used over and over again and just discarded,” Romick says.“They need to know the love of Christ and the only way that they’re going to have that is if we go and tell them.”

Devadasis come mainly from impoverished families of the untouchables class, the lowest rung of Hindu society. They are used and exploited by men. Sometimes they receive compensation for their services, sometimes not. A vulnerable population, the devadasis are susceptible to HIV, AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases.
Dak-original

United States

#18382 May 8, 2012
60% INDIANS ARE LIVING WITHOUT TOILETS

Leave a comment Go to comments

India was one of the first cultures to have sitting toilets in the society. Archaeological remains of the Harappa civilization around the Indus valley, 2500 BC, have disclosed that people of that times had toilets in each house. Those toilets, linked with drains covered with burnt clay bricks, was a fine example of sanitary engineering. Since then, the civilization developed and the sanitation technology declined horribly in the country. At present, 2.6 billion people in the world have no access to toilets and 1.3 billion live in India and China.

People peeing public is a kind of view you can see anywhere across India. This has become a habit for most of the Indians. They hesitate using the public urinal and do prefer peeing in open because of the worst condition of public toilets at most of the places.
Every morning you can find men, children carrying an old tin or bottle of water going towards the nearest train tracks, shoreline, vacant plot, field, or just the side of the road just to relieve themselves. Women usually wait till the late nigh or early morning before they get a chance to go to relieve themselves.

WHO-Unicef report, which states that in 2008, some 638 million Indians living without toilet. India has a population of roughly 1.1 billion, so if you do the math, it means 60 percent of the nation’s people have to put up with the inconvenience.
Indian economy is being rated among the 2nd fastest growing economy in the world. The other side of coin reveals that less than 20 % of Indians only have access to good clean toilets across the country. According to the World Health Organization, 80% of India’s diarrhoeal diseases is the result of drinking water contamination by poor sanitation.

The cost of labor has become cheaper than cost of toilet paper in the country. It has resulted in the absence of municipal staffs to keep the public toilets clean.
You would have traumatic experience if you get a chance to visiting public toilet facilities in India most of the times.

In slum areas,an average 81 people share a single toilet. In some places it rises to an eye-watering 273.Unsurprisingly, it is still common to see people squatting by roads and railway tracks or along the coast, openly defecating in the city that drives India’s economy and where some of the world’s richest people live.

How could a person make a toilet if he has no money for food. 70 percent of India`s population living in only Rs-20 per day (less than half US dollar).Most of people in Rural India are living without Electricity,House, Drinking water, Toilet, School, Hospitals.Most of them are still living in unhuman conditions

The UN estimates that 600 million people or 60 % of Indians still defecate outside, more than 60 years after the scrupulously clean independence leader Mahatma Gandhi first talked of the responsible disposal of human waste.

http://myeconomist.wordpress.com/60-indians-a...
Dak-original

United States

#18383 May 8, 2012
BBC NEWS

India Dalit boy 'killed over high-caste man's name' Neeraj Kumar was found dead in a field

Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
India caste meal activist beaten
An 'English goddess' for India's down-trodden
India's caste-offs
A low-caste Dalit boy has been killed in the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh for sharing a name with a man of a higher caste, police say.

They said Neeraj Kumar's father Ram Sumer had been asked to change the names of two sons as they were the same as those of Jawahar Chaudhary's sons.
The body of Neeraj, 14, was found on 23 November in a field. Two friends of the Chaudhary family have been arrested.
Mr Chaudhary denies the involvement of his family in the murder.

He says the family is being framed by police.
Dalits, formerly known as "untouchables", are at the bottom of the Hindu caste system in India.

Although caste discrimination is illegal, biases remain in many areas.
Strangled

The latest incident took place in Radhaupur village in Basti district.

Both Ram Sumer and Jawahar Chaudhary have sons named Neeraj and Dheeraj and that has long been an issue between the two families, Sub-inspector Praveen Kumar said.
Mr Chaudhary, who belongs to a higher caste, had given several warnings to Mr Sumer to change the names of his boys.
On 22 November, Neeraj left home after dinner to watch television at a friend's house. His body was found the next day.
Police said he was strangled.

Mr Chaudhary's sons - Neeraj and Dheeraj - are missing, but police have arrested two friends of the family who they say had a role in the murder.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-15...
Dak-original

United States

#18384 May 8, 2012
How The Indian Intelligence Agencies Kill Sikhs In The Punjab – The Actual Techniques Described

The Genocide Of Sikhs

Editor’s Notice : The death sentence awarded to Sardar Balwant Singh Rajoana, having it’s roots in the genocide of 200,000 Sikhs from 1983 to 1995 by the Indian Government has left the Sikh Archives with no choice but to speak out.

It has shaken our conscious that this odious country called India would have the temerity to sentence a man to the gallows for trying to halt the second largest genocide in the Word in the last 30 years. India architected this genocide at the highest echelons of government. The genocide continues today on a smaller scale; with 2000-4000 political activist Sikhs ‘disappearing’ every year in India.

We are aware that Intelligence Agencies review this site for “terrorist content”. We know that they look for key words like martyr. All this content is scrutinised by a practising attorney at law. We are aware that there is a VPN tunnel in California operated by Indian Intelligence that tunnels the content of this site to India (because the edge gateways in India block this site). The issue of the genocide of 200,000 Sikhs, the continuing ethnic cleansing of Sikhs, the direct interference by the Indian Government with the conscious of devout Sikhs has become morally repugnant. We can no longer in good conscience remain silent. It is a matter of moral duty to speak out. We are Sardars and not slaves! Until the day that this matter of the Sikh Genocide is investigated by independent human rights organisations and the matter is brought to the International Criminal Court we will continue to speak out. The duty of a true Sikh is to obey the dictate of his good conscience regardless of any personal cost or danger.

The details below are from the Report Of Citizens for Social Responsibilities. This is a Foreign Based NGO. The report stated:
“In the state of Punjab where the rising number of missing persons has alarmed human rights activists, 10,869 persons went missing during the last five years of the Parkash Singh Badal regime. During the regime of Amarinder Singh between 2002-2007, 3409 persons went missing as against 2403 persons during the Badal regime between 1997 and 2002.”

The Government Of Prakash Singh Badal in the five years 1997 to 2002 : responsible for the unaccounted disappearances of 2,403 Sikhs

The Government of Amrinder Singh in the Punjab 2002 to 2007: 3,409 unaccounted for disappearances of Sikhs
The Government Of Prakash Singh Badal from 2007 to 2012 : 10,869 unaccounted disappearances of Sikhs.
Government of Prakash Singh Badal from 2010 to 2012, in three districts of twelve districts of the Punjab (Bhatinda, Amritsar and Hoshiarpur): 834 Sikhs have disappeared.

Total disappearances of Sikhs from 1997 to 2012 : 16,681 murdered .

The Slow Kill Or Pruning Strategy
These details are recounted by a former officer of the Punjab Armed Police:
Let me describe how that figure of 16,681 Sikhs killed by the Punjab Police and the intelligence agencies actually works. This is how the genocide is being carried out now. It is the post 1995 strategy and has been employed for 15 years on Sikhs. But firstly let me say that the actual numbers are higher. Remember that for almost thirty years, the Indian Government refused to carry out a population survey in the Punjab because they wanted to obscure the actual counts of Sikhs. All the more easier for them to carry out large scale genocides.
Sometimes when I reflect, the cunningness of Brahmins just astounds me. There has to be a genetic factor at work.

http://www.sikharchives.com/...
Dak-original

Reading, UK

#18385 May 8, 2012
Dak-original wrote:
Temple prostitution still alive in India
By Kate Taylor
Posted Jan 11, 2012
Imagine living in a society in which you are judged by your station in life, determined by your birth, rather than by your individual worth or accomplishments. As a member of the lowest rung of society, you can barely keep food on the table for your wife and two daughters.
When your wife becomes ill after giving birth to a third daughter who, unlike the son you had hoped for, will be an unbearable financial burden, you have only one choice: You must dedicate your daughter to the goddess as a devadasis, a temple prostitute.
By dedicating your baby, you have given her a profession and a way to obtain food for her family. Perhaps the goddess will now show favor to your family, sparing your wife’s life and filling her womb with the long-awaited boy child. Your daughter’s sacrifice is small compared to your entire family’s alternative fate of starvation. If her body is the price the goddess asks, it must be paid.
In India, the devadasi (day-vah-dah-see) system, a Hindu practice of temple prostitution, has existed for more than 5,000 years, says David Dass, executive director of the India Gospel League. In the state of Karnataka, where he and his wife live, starving families dedicate hundreds of girls each year to the goddess Yellamma. The children are forced to begin a life of prostitution at age 11 or 12.
“From the very beginning, they’re being exploited as babies,” says Annette Romick, a humanitarian aid worker in India.“Then, when they hit maturity, their bodies are exploited by men. Even when their bodies are no longer desirable to men, they are still exploited and abused because ...ey’re stuck in; it’s a living hell that they’re experiencing.”
The word devadasi literally translates to “god’s female servant.” Parents usually choose to dedicate their daughters as infants to the goddess Yellamma, in hopes of gaining the goddess’ favor or easing a financial burden.
Once dedicated, a girl is considered to be married to the goddess and is never allowed to marry a man. When the girl reaches physical maturity, she is forced to begin her life as a prostitute.
“Since 1982, the devadasi system has been banned by the government of India and Karnataka,” says Joseph Paul, a Christian pastor ministering among devadasis.“But there are underground practices – nobody knows how they practice and how they dedicate.”
Our parents gave us birth and threw us on the street. Men come and use us, finish their job and go.Sugandha,* former devadasis
Because the devadasis practice has gone underground, the women work mostly from their homes, only visiting the temple to beg money from worshippers. Many of the prostitutes are trafficked to the red light districts of Mumbai, Pune, Bangalore and other large cities.
“Our parents gave us birth and threw us on the street. Men come and use us, finish their job and go,” says Sugandha, a former devadasis receiving assistance from a non-governmental organization.
In the Hindu religion, devadasis have hope for a better life only through the cycle of rebirth. Few devadasis have ever heard the name of Jesus Christ who offers hope for this life and for eternity.
“Their lives have been ruined, and they feel like trash that’s just been used over and over again and just discarded,” Romick says.“They need to know the love of Christ and the only way that they’re going to have that is if we go and tell them.”
Devadasis come mainly from impoverished families of the untouchables class, the lowest rung of Hindu society. They are used and exploited by men. Sometimes they receive compensation for their services, sometimes not. A vulnerable population, the devadasis are susceptible to HIV, AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases.
That was cut and paste job by Fraud Cretin. The illegal practice has been banned and the pastor, who was "concerned" enough to post the story, should have given evidence to the police.
Dak-original

Reading, UK

#18386 May 8, 2012
Dak-original wrote:
BBC NEWS
India Dalit boy 'killed over high-caste man's name' Neeraj Kumar was found dead in a field
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
India caste meal activist beaten
An 'English goddess' for India's down-trodden
India's caste-offs
A low-caste Dalit boy has been killed in the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh for sharing a name with a man of a higher caste, police say.
They said Neeraj Kumar's father Ram Sumer had been asked to change the names of two sons as they were the same as those of Jawahar Chaudhary's sons.
The body of Neeraj, 14, was found on 23 November in a field. Two friends of the Chaudhary family have been arrested.
Mr Chaudhary denies the involvement of his family in the murder.
He says the family is being framed by police.
Dalits, formerly known as "untouchables", are at the bottom of the Hindu caste system in India.
Although caste discrimination is illegal, biases remain in many areas.
Strangled
The latest incident took place in Radhaupur village in Basti district.
Both Ram Sumer and Jawahar Chaudhary have sons named Neeraj and Dheeraj and that has long been an issue between the two families, Sub-inspector Praveen Kumar said.
Mr Chaudhary, who belongs to a higher caste, had given several warnings to Mr Sumer to change the names of his boys.
On 22 November, Neeraj left home after dinner to watch television at a friend's house. His body was found the next day.
Police said he was strangled.
Mr Chaudhary's sons - Neeraj and Dheeraj - are missing, but police have arrested two friends of the family who they say had a role in the murder.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-15...
Good, Fraud Cretin Police action is at hand. In Pakistan/S Arabia , these type of news would in all probability would not see the light of day.

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