Statue Symbolizes Grudges Against Russia

I think that the Russians here are running out of arguments and so they are already starting to ramble or rave here. When I told about the Russian and Jewish cultural minorities in Estonia, that was a general example. Of course, the Soviet motherland wanted to destroy these Russian and Jewish minorities in Estonia as soon as they occupied the country. And so they did. By the way, the Soviets blasted all Estonian national monuments when they conquered Estonia, and they reburied remains of many of their soldiers in the 1940s.

Right now, as I am hearing noise and sirens and screams outside from my window, I can see that Russians, this nation of otherwise quite unhappy history, can apparently only identify themselves through the 60-year-old victory in WW2 over Nazi-Germany -- your own previous allies and agreement partners in secretly dividing the entire Europe. WW2 is long over, please do not go on with it but find yourselves a civilized future.

You consider yourselves Russians, a nation of great culture, but in fact you still only have the mentality of Soviet people. In your hearts you miss the Soviet Union tyranny, where the Russian people were supreme over others and where you were not allowed to think.

The riots are going on right now in Tallinn. There are more shops looted at this very moment, tonight, by Russian youngsters and even Russian schoolchildren of 13-18 years of age (my estimate). Where does such brainwashing come from?

It seems that instead of dealing with this in civilized manner and democratically, all Russians here can do is send their children to the streets to loot the department stores and fight the police while people of power (and probably the actual inciters of this hatred and unrest) in the Russian fatherland are talking about cutting diplomatic ties in Estonia and declaring a war.

Yeni,

Let me answer your question.

_Democracy also means, according to the universal charters, having the right for a decent work, decent living free from existential fears of being unemployed, being homeless etc.; it's the right of improving your culture in a friendly environment, socializing with other cultures etc. Not just voting and electing and gettin elected etc._

All Russians who were living in Estonia at the moment of our reindependence in 1991 have the option of getting Estonian citizenship. For that they have to prove how long they have lived here and prove that they can speak Estonian. Many Russians whom I know can speak Estonian very fluently and they have really good jobs. I have seen really lot of Russians being employed here without problems, as long as they can communicate in Estonian.

The risk of such Russians of being unemployed is approximately the same as for Estonians. However, there are more Russians in Estonia. At North East Estonia, there is general problem of unemployment and many Russian-speaking people there have fallen for drugs or AIDS. However, in that region (I visited the region last autumn) it is sometimes difficult to not know Russian -- because everybody speaks Russian there anyway and Estonian is much more rarely heard.

I live in Estonia and I cannot see my country as divided into two. As I said, very many young Russians know Estonian well and have the citizenship.(Actually the number of non-citizens is not very big any more; very many Russians have exactly the same righs as Estonians here.) Non-citizens (mostly older Russians) can, in most cases, get the citizenship as soon as they can communicate in the Estonian language but this is often something that goes against the Russian pride. At the same time, most of these older Russians and non-citizens are, according to my estimate, not the ones rioting on the streets right now. On the streets I am seeing young people, mainly schoolchildren and young Russians in their 20s. I have strong reasons to believe that many of those breaking windows on the streets now are actually full-right citizens of Estonia brainwashed by Moscow TV.

_ You keep saying that this is your land??? real estonia??? What the hell is that?? You were tribes then and you are animals now!!!!estonia was never independen so f.off into the woods where you belong_

Exactly as I said: Russians are running out of arguments and showing their true face.

Eugene wrote:

everybody here is very ignorent!!! And why would russians want to argue with animals, barbarians etc. Putin was right about estonia. You keep saying that this is your land??? real estonia??? What the hell is that?? You were tribes then and you are animals now!!!!estonia was never independen so f.off into the woods where you belong

And what about Russia or Canada? And now were are animals, that must mean that we ain't Nazis anymore. I bet you don't even know who a Nazi is. We Estonians have more right to call this land ours than you can call Canada yours.

It's a big shame for Estonia. I'm really disappointed that this country joined EU. It seems that Estonian parliament is worth than leaders of African tribes. Shame on you.

What is shame? That one statue is being moved from the centre of the city to a cemetery? That the remains of war heroes will be buried in a dignified final resting place instead of a crossroad and a bus stop in the city centre?

Regrettably, Russians and Estonians seem to have different understandings of culture. I can say, cross my heart, that I have tried to understand Russian culture. I like bands like Akvarium and Kino, I own their CDs and read the lyrics of their songs, I like Russian writers, I can read, speak and write Russian.

Please, why don't you want (and never wanted) to understand our culture? In our culture, the dead must rest in peace. Graves do not belong in the centre of the city and should not be a place of drinking parties.

Tallinn2 wrote:

What is shame? That one statue is being moved from the centre of the city to a cemetery? That the remains of war heroes will be buried in a dignified final resting place instead of a crossroad and a bus stop in the city centre?
Regrettably, Russians and Estonians seem to have different understandings of culture. I can say, cross my heart, that I have tried to understand Russian culture. I like bands like Akvarium and Kino, I own their CDs and read the lyrics of their songs, I like Russian writers, I can read, speak and write Russian.
Please, why don't you want (and never wanted) to understand our culture? In our culture, the dead must rest in peace. Graves do not belong in the centre of the city and should not be a place of drinking parties.

What's the reason to understand barbaric "culture"? The remains of soldiers shouldn't be moved just because somebody wants to have better view for tourists.

And who was talking about tourists?:S

The monument was to be relocated - not destroyed and poor unkown bones were to be indentified and given decent burial. Are you against it - do you agree with the thiefs and and wreckers?

And what are Estonians doing? Relocating the statue to cemetery and identifying the bones - something Russia was unable to do for 60 years - and to give them decent burial.

And what are doing those “defenders”? Stealing, breaking, and even killing. And yelling that "estonia belongs to us" or USSR-4-ever"

Klara Lipkin wrote:

<quoted text>
What is it is "their" home? What if they were born in this country? Till what time this will not be ‘their home’? Following this logic all Americans should be kicked out of America because they are also “nasty old colonists”. If you disagree, seems like someone has double standards.

I spent many years traveling around the former USSR, the Caucasus, the central Asian republics, the Baltics. In each and every one of them there is a remnant of russians colonists left behind after the tide of russsian occupation receded. In every case they are hated, despised, shunned, ostracised because of their behavior and attitude. They are stupid dirty drunken louts, just like they are showing the world in Tallinn. All they do is make trouble. Everyone wishes they would just pack up and go back home

_What's the reason to understand barbaric "culture"?_

Russians call Estonians "barbaric" but it is the Russians "defending a monument" who break and loot shops and set fires and destroy the historical Tallinn Old Town.

Your problem is that you have never wanted to understand. I think that Russia should begin from their own backyard. You say that Estonians are Nazi and fascist but in Russia, you have tens of thousands of Nazis:

http://www.brain-storming.info/article.php...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Russi...

I think that your problem is not the monument or Estonia, which is just a small civilized European country. Your problem is somewhere else. You like violence and destruction and, as you said yourself, you do not want to understand. You only make demands and get enraged if those demands are not obeyed. This is chauvinism.

vgp wrote:

Estonians - my advice to you. you should prohibit employing those Russians who don't speak Estonien! I watched how mongols (I call them mongols,their appearance ethnicity and culture are same)were crying "RUSSIA" ???? what the f..k? if they want Russia they should go to their horrible and filthy country.!!!!!!!!! and cry Putin or Lenin there.

hoho! Mongols. Well, I see nothing bad in being a MONGOLIAN. I have known some of them and must admit they are decent people. If you are trying to offend Russians by calling them mongols, it means that you are a xenophob and chauvinist. But, the "mongols" kicked your Swedish asses several times during the history. So what's wrong with you? you gave up to mongols you contempt so much? LOL another historically offended small but proud nation...
Your posts guys make me believe that everybody hates Russians in the world, thanks to NATO's propaganda. In rotten Europe turning gay and Radically-islamic now it's considered good manners hating people who did not do anything bad to them. Very very sad.
But you don't realize, my dear Arier: you call Russians mongols, while they are no less Europeans as the best of you. However, you host millions of muslims who openly express their contempt to you and your culture, your women, lifestyle and you per se. You sustain them paying your taxes... the ones who consider you pigs. so, I cannot imagine a destiny any worth than that... and I feel pity for you. Fearless vikings in the past, you are now going sissy and gay and silly. O tempora, o mores.

"Please, why don't you want (and never wanted) to understand our culture? In our culture, the dead must rest in peace. Graves do not belong in the centre of the city and should not be a place of drinking parties."
We do, but you behave as traitors. Your government simply discriminates Russian-speaking people in your country, requiring them to take the tests of advanced Estonian and the Estonian history. I know one guy who is an Israeli-US citizen, who never been to Estonia, but his grandmother used to live in Estonia before she left for Israel in the 30's. So this guy was recently very close to getting the Estonian/EU citizenship because of his grandmother, but without any knowledge of Estonian language or history. However, this smartass, having pursued the third citizenship, was denied because his grandmother actually terminated her Estonian citizenship when she moved to Israel. Poor guy...-) Wanted to be smarter and more patriotic than his granny.
Estonia is a typical nationalistic insecure country, revenging on Russia and Russians. You are just a brown-nose puppets of the Western geopolitical machine. Read the analysis in the article (http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml... ) on how the post Communist Russia has been mistreated for more than 16 years. It was written by a former advisor for Clinton and older Bush’s administrations. I hope it will make sense to you and some other Estonian morons. Pass this article to your government. Again, hope this may help you better understand your neighbors and your country’s Russian-speaking minority.

If people want to get citizenship, it is quite natural that they should speak the language of the country they want to be nationals of. If the Russian-speaking people know the language and get the citizenship, they have equal opportunities with Estonians.
In addition, people wanting citizenship should have some knowledge of the culture of this state and some respect towards the country that they want to call their homeland.
Indeed, some Russians have not wanted to learn the language. As said before, learning the "barbaric" language of "Estonian aborigenes" seems not to agree with their big Russian soul and chauvinism. But they, too, have Estonian permits of residence. The fact that they neither want to learn the Estonian language nor want to get Russian passports is actually their problem, at least partly. But still, they can live here too. If they want Estonian passports, they should be able to communicate in Estonian and this, too, is for their own good because otherwise they would have problem getting a job.
They are not deported thousands of kilometres away like you Russians did to Estonians in 1941 and 1949 and to many other ethnicities in your praised Soviet Union.
I see, Evgeny, that you are a Russian but you are in the United States. I do not know if you are a citizen but you seem to be able to communicate in English. I agree: this is the polite way to behave if you are in a country where another language is used as the official language. And if you have children there in the United States, you cannot demand the US Government that everyone must communicate with your children in Russian. They will probably laugh at you. In America, English is spoken. In Russia, Russian. In Estonia, Estonian.
Most of the local Russians were settled here by the Soviet authorities colonization programme (or are the children of those Russians). Nobody asked the Estonian people if we wanted Russians here. But if those Russians stayed here, which they did, it would have only been polite to show some respect to the nation whose country you were taking as your own by force. But you chose not to show that respect. I remember from my school time how Estonians were treated by Russians in Soviet Estonia. Russians liked to beat up Estonians because we had our own different culture and did not think Soviet. You told us even then that we were fascist. I as an Estonian had to speak the Russian language -- I had no choice. You as Russians did not have to speak anything except the Russian language because you were the self-proclaimed "ruler" ethnicity of the Soviet Union. I can now honestly say that this situation in Estonia is due to your own nationalist pride and vanity.
But all Russians here are welcome to learn the language and become Estonian citizens. Language learning is not so big problem: I learned Russian and can still speak it. You learned English. Learning is good for everybody.
You can always speak Russian among yourselves, and many Estonians are polite and still use Russian in communicating with Russians here. But Estonian is the official language because the country you now live in is independent Estonia, not the USSR. This is not Russia.

Here is a recent neutral account of the general situation from the BBC by their Russia analyst:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6599145.stm

You Russians can now again say how all the world hates you. Words about "NATO propaganda" remind me of the Soviet times when this phrase was often used in Communist newspapers as the ultimate enemy: the danger from the west. The only propaganda I can now actually see in all this is Russian propaganda, which is still trying to show black as white.

But here is one for you to think about. If the world hates you, maybe the problem is not the world, maybe the problem is you?

OK... Estonian, following your logic, the Holocost happened and millions of Jews were turned into soap and leather belts because they were to blame themselves? Germans hated them. Do not tell me that Germans is one thing and Nazis is another. Hitler came to power democratically and there are enough historical evidence showing how thousands of Germans, including women and children, applauded to HItler fascist speeches furiously.

Nice logic. Absolutely nice.

nd so what? BBC is politically engaged. Britain wants to weaken Russia. Britain gave politial refuge to a terrorist-slauterer Zakaev and criminal Berezovski in order to ideologically influence Russia. And it's despite of terroristic attacks of Islamists in London and all over the world. BBC, like official London, is opportunistic. They are like windbag, will turn whereever the wind blows the strongest. Cheap propaganda.
Why BBC has no reports on Waffen SS veteran parades in Tallin, Esronian, can you say?

Tallinn2 wrote:

If people want to get citizenship, it is quite natural that they should speak the language of the country they want to be nationals of. If the Russian-speaking people know the language and get the citizenship, they have equal opportunities with Estonians.
In addition, people wanting citizenship should have some knowledge of the culture of this state and some respect towards the country that they want to call their homeland...
I see, Evgeny, that you are a Russian but you are in the United States. I do not know if you are a citizen but you seem to be able to communicate in English. I agree: this is the polite way to behave if you are in a country where another language is used as the official language. And if you have children there in the United States, you cannot demand the US Government that everyone must communicate with your children in Russian. They will probably laugh at you. In America, English is spoken. In Russia, Russian. In Estonia, Estonian.
Most of the local Russians were settled here by the Soviet authorities colonization programme (or are the children of those Russians). Nobody asked the Estonian people if we wanted Russians here. But if those Russians stayed here, which they did, it would have only been polite to show some respect to the nation whose country you were taking as your own by force. But you chose not to show that respect. I remember from my school time how Estonians were treated by Russians in Soviet Estonia. Russians liked to beat up Estonians because we had our own different culture and did not think Soviet. You told us even then that we were fascist. I as an Estonian had to speak the Russian language -- I had no choice. You as Russians did not have to speak anything except the Russian language because you were the self-proclaimed "ruler" ethnicity of the Soviet Union. I can now honestly say that this situation in Estonia is due to your own nationalist pride and vanity.
But all Russians here are welcome to learn the language and become Estonian citizens. Language learning is not so big problem: I learned Russian and can still speak it. You learned English. Learning is good for everybody.
You can always speak Russian among yourselves, and many Estonians are polite and still use Russian in communicating with Russians here. But Estonian is the official language because the country you now live in is independent Estonia, not the USSR. This is not Russia.

Well, I am Russian, and I also speak German as well. I like learning, I even know an Estnian word - Tervezeks. Not sure if I spelled it right. I wold not have a problem learning a language per se. But the whole logic behind that - people who were born in Estonia, lived and worked there all their lives, now proclaimed outlaws and have immigrant status. It is ridiculos. Estonia is their home, too! as well is it is your home! they are not to blame they were born in Estonia or had to go there by mandate. Why you think you can deny them the right to be legal citizens just because they are Russians? As the time goes, they will learn Estonian, if they do not, their children will, if they do not speak Estonian and can exist without it - ok! it's their own problem! You say nobody asked them if you wanted them in Estonia - OK, but nobody asked them if they wanted to be born in Estonia, too. So there is no need to be so chauvinistic. Or you just plain hate Russians so much that you even hate listening to the sound of Russian language? Is it closer to truth?

regarding the last nationalistic posts :
To "Swedish" nationalist ( well I presume he may be Albanian since Sweden is flooded with Albanians which have no other things to do than to hang in internet . Don't deny if you are an Albanian or Bosnian Muslim or Turk )
Russian question has nothing to do to Sweden. Russia is "filthy" but who the hell asked medieval Sweden to come and occupy its land during many years ? And in the two world wars Sweden was almost and ally of Germany , with their iron ore and ressources. But Russians in the last century do not feel ANYTHING but friendly feeling to Swedish people. The same applies to Danish people . Russians will not forget that the wife of one of their best emperors came from Denmark. It was very much visible in the time of last "caricature" problems. Most Russians I talked to still supported European side.
If Russians were a people like you and other describe, they would long ago take islamic faith and made jihad against everyone

Tallinn2 wrote:

If people want to get citizenship, it is quite natural that they should speak the language of the country they want to be nationals of. If the Russian-speaking people know the language and get the citizenship, they have equal opportunities with Estonians...
...You can always speak Russian among yourselves, and many Estonians are polite and still use Russian in communicating with Russians here. But Estonian is the official language because the country you now live in is independent Estonia, not the USSR. This is not Russia.

Hi Tallinn2,

Too long -- I was lost:

1. Sorry, I didn't understand your point. Why did my Israeli/US friend have a chance to get the Estonian/EU citizenship without any knowledge of Estonian and your country's culture, when Russian-speaking people should do? Can you elaborate on that please?
2. Did you read the article the link to which I sent to you, and to your other Estonian friends?

I have a few more questions then:

3. Do you know that the USSR was initially built as a multinational entity, with strong autonomies? Weren't Russians the victims of totalitarian system as well? Wasn't Russian language widely taught in Soviet Republics, because Russians were the largest ethnic group in the USSR and the USSR, as a state entity, needed to have a single official language? Who were Stalin, Trotsky, Dzerzhinsky, Khrushchev, etc.? Russians?
4. Was it clear in the 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, 50’s and 60’s what system is more sustainable – capitalist or socialist? Aren’t you aware of the strong communist/socialist movements that fought against fascism during WWII and defeated the colonial systems of the Great Britain, France, the USA, etc. around the globe? Do you know that WWII actually started with the Civil War in Spain, when the socialist government was embargoed by the UK and France and the Soviet Union started to fight with Hitler there? Do you know the Munich agreement divided the Czechoslovakia? What strategic move should Stalin have taken when the enemy was at the gates? Are you aware of Baltic States’ sentiment towards the USSR before/during the WWII? If not please read the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Gren... . Do you know the price the Soviet Union paid in this war? Do you know that this was the world divided by the spheres of influence before/during/after the WWII, and as the Soviet Union had its supporters and enemies in satellite countries, so did the West?
5. Did the capitalist system change from the 20’s up to now, having become more regulated and socially oriented? Do we live in the recent 16 years in a better multilateral world, while there are huge conflicts and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, to name only few?
6. What country and who are the leaders who dismantled the Soviet system and Eastern bloc? Do you remember the names of the people who led Russia, a very large and still multinational country as you may know, through these highly challenging transformations from the totalitarian system/communist economy to the democratic society and market economy? Do you know when the Cold War was over it was agreed that there are no winners and losers and there is no reason to expand the NATO? Did Russia step back from reforms? Did Russia get any funding for rebuilding its economy, as Western Europe, including Germany, and Japan got after WWII, or the new EU members are currently getting?
7. Why did your country decide to dismantle the Bronze Soldier’s monument now? Why not 16 years, 10 years, etc. ago? What has happened? Why does your country want to hurt feelings of people who still remember the history and relationships between two countries?

Before getting back to me, I would suggest you read the article I mentioned and think about the conflict as a good neighbor, but not as a person brain-washed with the stereotypes of the Cold War.