Angry Ukrainians reject NATO

acknowledgment?
Kosovo?
Serbia?
500 thousand killed Iraqi kids?
Burning in napalm children of Vetnam?
50 mln of genocided First Nations.
etc etc etc...
Shut up, you, humanist....:)))

uther pendragon wrote:

<quoted text>
But when discussing internal Ukrainian politics you seem to only see corruption on one side. Putin and Kuchma supported Yanukovych but only the "orange revolution" was corrupt?
I suspect both sides were getting outside assistance.
The west and Russia both are out for their own interests. Neither is concerned about Ukraine so much as their own prestige.

I agree with you that both sides may have been getting assistance but I think Yanukovich was being more strongly supported by Putin than anyone was assisting an orange revolution form the west. Plus, Russian policy towards its neighbors and its own domestic problems make looking west more promising for a stable and improved standard of living. Ukraine has had plenty of experience being in Moscow's sphere.

Why_Me wrote:

<quoted text>
Nobody is asking Russia to "pay". We are asking her to finally "acknowledge" them.
I mean come on, Russia has 3/4 of the Katyn files locked up, and it is now starting to print in her papers the same old Soviet propogands that the NAZI's were responsible for Katyn. I mean come on, we knew the truth back then, so it's not like we all came down with the last rain.
Its called "acknowledgement". It's not that hard to do unless you beleive a brainwashed nation...and lord knows Russians were brainwashed since the days of Lenin, is a better nation than a nation that admits it makes mistakes. Russia never admits this, she is always right, or there is always an ememy. Just like the Yelstin years, the west, and mainly the USA was to blame for this in Russia's eyes. Russia was robbed by Russians plain and simple.

The post I was responding to said "pay some sort of compensation". So perhaps you are not calling for it...

Russian policy towards its neighbors is only asking money for stolen goods.
I do not believe US will feed you for free, idiots.

stoke wrote:

acknowledgment?
Kosovo?
Serbia?
500 thousand killed Iraqi kids?
Burning in napalm children of Vetnam?
50 mln of genocided First Nations.
etc etc etc...
Shut up, you, humanist....:)))

Now it's 500,000 Iraqi kids? LMAO.. tomorow it will be 1 billion.

Did the US line those children up infront of a pit, shoot them in the back of the head, then say it was the NAZI's who did it?

Alex wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree with you that both sides may have been getting assistance but I think Yanukovich was being more strongly supported by Putin than anyone was assisting an orange revolution form the west. Plus, Russian policy towards its neighbors and its own domestic problems make looking west more promising for a stable and improved standard of living. Ukraine has had plenty of experience being in Moscow's sphere.

I think the west a better bet for totally different reasons. The EU is made up of democratic republics who are economically sound.
Even if you trusted a former KGB head turned politician it still makes more sense to choose the EU.
But it is best to at least try keeping on good terms with Moskva as well. If Russia can not accept that...

turka wrote:

Russian policy towards its neighbors is only asking money for stolen goods.
I do not believe US will feed you for free, idiots.

What does that post of yours mean when it's translated into English?

turka wrote:

Russian policy towards its neighbors is only asking money for stolen goods.
I do not believe US will feed you for free, idiots.

Are you implying Putin and Medvedyev fence stolen goods?

Why_Me wrote:

<quoted text>
Now it's 500,000 Iraqi kids? LMAO.. tomorow it will be 1 billion.
Did the US line those children up infront of a pit, shoot them in the back of the head, then say it was the NAZI's who did it?

That sounds a little more civilized than engineering a famine and instead of letting them emigrate like the Irish forcing them to starve on their own lands.
But since that was before 1940 hard to blame it on the Waffen SS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_prisoner_ma...

Ukraine

Lviv (Lwow): between June 23 and June 28, the NKVD executed several thousand inmates in a number of provisional prisons. Among the common methods of extermination were shooting the prisoners in their cells, killing them with grenades thrown into the cells or starving them to death in the cellars. Some were simply bayoneted to death. It is estimated that over 4000 people were murdered that way, while the number of survivors is estimated at ca. 270

Lutsk (Luck): After the prison was hit by German bombs, the Soviet authorities promised amnesty to all political prisoners, in order to prevent escapes. As they lined up outside they were machine-gunned by Soviet tanks. They were told: "Those still alive get up." Some 370 stood up and were forced to bury the dead, after which they were murdered as well. It is estimated that between 1,500 to 4,000 were killed.

Brzezany (Berezhany) near Tarnopol (Ternopil): between June 22 and July 1 the crew of the local NKVD prison has executed without a trial approximately 300 Polish citizens, among them a large number of Ukrainians.

Vinnitsa: more than 9,000 executed.

Dubno: All the prisoners, including women and children, were executed in Dubno's three-story prison.

Sambor (Sambir): 570 killed

Simferopol: on October 31, the NKVD shot a number of people in the NKVD building and in the city prison. In Yalta, on November 4, the NKVD shot all the prisoners in the city prisons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_massac...

The Vinnytsia massacre was a mass execution of people in the Ukrainian town of Vinnytsia by the Soviet secret police NKVD during Joseph Stalin's Great Purge in 1937–1938. Mass graves in Vinnytsia were discovered during the German occupation of Ukraine in 1943. The investigation of this site coincided with the discovery of a similar site in Katyn. Because the Germans wanted to use this evidence of Communist terror to discredit the Soviet Union, it became one of the better researched sites of mass murder among many in Ukraine.

The first examinations of the exhumed bodies were made by German, Ukrainian and Russian doctors such as professor Gerhard Schrader of the University of Halle-Wittenberg, docent Doroshenko of Vinnytsia, and professor Malinin of Krasnodar. The excavations started in May 1943 at three different locations: the fruit orchard in the west, the central cemetery, and the People's Park. Most of the bodies were found in the fruit orchard (5,644 bodies). Altogether, 91 mass graves were discovered at the three different locations and 9,432 bodies were exhumed; 149 of them were women. The excavations at the People's Park were not finished, though many more bodies were thought to be buried there.

After a preliminary investigation conducted by professor Schrader's team, two teams of medical examiners were invited — one international and the other made up of 13 experts from different German universities. An international commission of experts in anatomy and forensic pathology was invited from eleven countries in Europe. The experts were:

People of Vinnytsia looking for their relatives among exhumed bodies.

Dr. Soenen, Ghent University, Belgium.
Dr. Michailov, Sofia University, Bulgaria.
Dr. Pesonen, University of Helsinki, Finland.
Dr. Duvoir, University of Paris, France.
Dr. Cazzaniga, University of Milan, Italy.
Dr. Jurak, University of Zagreb, Croatia.
Dr. ter Poorten, University of Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Dr. Birkle, Bucharest, Romania.
Dr. Gösta Häggqvist, Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm, Sweden.
Dr. Krsek, University of Bratislava, Slovakia.
Dr. Ferenc Orsós, University of Budapest, Hungary.

The international commission visited the mass graves between July 13 and July 15, 1943. The German commission completed its report on the July 29, 1943. Both commissions determined that almost all of the victims were executed by two shots in the back of the head between 1937–1938.

468 bodies were identified by people of Vinnytsia and the surroundings, the other 202 were identified on the basis of documents and evidence found in the graves. Most were identified as Ukrainians, but there were also 28 ethnic Poles.

uther pendragon wrote:

<quoted text>
Did the British, French, Italian, Prussian and other empires pay reparations to all their former colonial possessions? I think America's check must still be in the mail from London on that one.
If no one else is paying why Russia?

Those colonies belonged to the british, french, etc long time ago and I do believe around 1920 or earlier they were given their freedom. They had time to heal from the wounds.

Now lets look at central europe. From 1945 to 1989 russians were raping every eastern and central economies every chance they got. In doing so they enslaved the entire pop'ns just so to fulfill russian pop'n needs. Many people are still alive today that lived in that era and need to be compensated. Do you work for subsistance wage? Do you like being a slave labourer? These people from eastern and central europe who for exemple worked their entire life for pennies and they have nothing to show for it when they get old or those that lost their entire life savings as a result russians mismanaging the economy should be compensated. These people heard nothing but lies throughout their lives.

Tell me. How many millions of lives did the russians destroy as a result of their imperialism which they are trying to hide now? They fcked up the entire eastern and central europe. As a result of russian actions everyone hates them now. Did you know these communist pigs were releasing murderers from prisons and telling them that if they kill this and this person they will be free. What the russians did is still fresh on people's minds. As a result of their actions eastern and central european economies have a long way to go before they catch up to the west.

Why_Me wrote:

<quoted text>
Nobody is asking Russia to "pay". We are asking her to finally "acknowledge" them.
I mean come on, Russia has 3/4 of the Katyn files locked up, and it is now starting to print in her papers the same old Soviet propogands that the NAZI's were responsible for Katyn. I mean come on, we knew the truth back then, so it's not like we all came down with the last rain.
Its called "acknowledgement". It's not that hard to do unless you beleive a brainwashed nation...and lord knows Russians were brainwashed since the days of Lenin, is a better nation than a nation that admits it makes mistakes. Russia never admits this, she is always right, or there is always an ememy. Just like the Yelstin years, the west, and mainly the USA was to blame for this in Russia's eyes. Russia was robbed by Russians plain and simple.

Ever since the kayn massacre was not considered a genocide but "Stalin did it" families of those that were murdered by the soviets have taken their fight to the courts. If the russians want to hide the truth so much they shoul pay compensation to those whom they killed and robbed.

And uther pendragon. Are russians paying compensation to the chechens who have taken them to human rights courts and won? Why should it be any different with eastern and central europeans?

Sorry guys, no handouts are available.
You may shut up your choppers.
Arbeiten! Arbeiten!

TO Hryhori, Stephan, any real Ukrainians who would like to help please listen up.

Does anyone know of an on line English- Ukrainian Dictionary, which I can print out and take to a local business who is trying to train three young Ukrainians at work.

A couple of years ago I found a site which consited of an english/Ukrainaina
dictionary that was a real dictionary (about 20 0r 30 printed pages long- with the Ukrainian in transliteration) and not advertisements for electronic dictionaries.

If you kinow of such a site, please let me know right away, so I can print it out and give it to the person attemping to train these three young Ukrainians.

This is not a joke.
I await your reply,. the sooner the better, as they are tying to train right now.

I repeat, this is not a joke. we need a dictionary (if I remember it was about 20 or 30 pages long with english to Ukrainian in transliteration.)

Thank you in advance

peter wrote:

<quoted text>
Those colonies belonged to the british, french, etc long time ago and I do believe around 1920 or earlier they were given their freedom. They had time to heal from the wounds.
Now lets look at central europe. From 1945 to 1989 russians were raping every eastern and central economies every chance they got. In doing so they enslaved the entire pop'ns just so to fulfill russian pop'n needs. Many people are still alive today that lived in that era and need to be compensated. Do you work for subsistance wage? Do you like being a slave labourer? These people from eastern and central europe who for exemple worked their entire life for pennies and they have nothing to show for it when they get old or those that lost their entire life savings as a result russians mismanaging the economy should be compensated. These people heard nothing but lies throughout their lives.
Tell me. How many millions of lives did the russians destroy as a result of their imperialism which they are trying to hide now? They fcked up the entire eastern and central europe. As a result of russian actions everyone hates them now. Did you know these communist pigs were releasing murderers from prisons and telling them that if they kill this and this person they will be free. What the russians did is still fresh on people's minds. As a result of their actions eastern and central european economies have a long way to go before they catch up to the west.

I think the Indians, Egyptians and Vietnamese would be greatly surprised to hear "it was all pre-1920". The British and French were desperately trying to hold onto their imperial possessions after World War II.
I am sure plenty of former British and French "slaves" are still alive.

Hryhorii wrote:

Rus' is distinct from Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. No one of these nationalities can lay sole claim to it, any more than France or Spain or Italy could claim to be the sole descendant of the Roman Empire.
All of the offspring of Rus' had a formative period. Russia's was under the influence of the Golden Horde, while Ukraine's and Belarus' was under the influence of Poland and Lithuania.
Russian statehood began with Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century, Ukrainian statehood with Bohdan Khmelnitsky in the 17th century. The Treaty of Pereyaslav, which brought both nations together, was slowly revoked by the Russian monarchy in the 18th century. Ever since then, Ukrainian leaders have sought to break away from Russia, and it is hard to blame them. Their very national identity is at stake.

I agree. All three, Rusia, Ukraine and Belarus all can claim to Kieven Rus.

Stefanya wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree. All three, Rusia, Ukraine and Belarus all can claim to Kieven Rus.

Why does Russia have to lay claim to anything? Does USA or Canada "lay claim" to the British Empire? or Does England lay claim to the Roman Empire? Why do Russians keep grasping? Why do Russian chauvinists obsessive need to "lay claim?"

uther pendragon wrote:

<quoted text>
But when discussing internal Ukrainian politics you seem to only see corruption on one side. Putin and Kuchma supported Yanukovych but only the "orange revolution" was corrupt?
I suspect both sides were getting outside assistance.
The west and Russia both are out for their own interests. Neither is concerned about Ukraine so much as their own prestige.

I disagree. Russians are very interested in Ukraine as it has been a part of Russia for a very long time and people are intermarried with millions of Russians living in Ukraine and millions of Ukrinians living and working in Russia. Ukraine is not like Poland or czechoslovakia before it broke in two, or Rumania ietc. it has been a part of Russia for a long time

Maybe the American South west should break away and maintain some ties with the USA but really get reaquainted with Mexico and points south. Maybe it would be better off.