Ron Paul on the Verge of Going Third Party?

Bill R wrote:

<quoted text>
Thanks for the clarification on your use of
terms. It was confusing to me at times during
our echanges and, like you, I am against a
socialized medicine approach as a resolution of
the problems.
It seems to be, without having examined it as
closely as I would like to this point, that the
McCain approach of leaning toward an income tax
deduction for medical insurance has some genuine
merit, if only that it leaves having insurance
at all an individual choice, not something man-
dated or required by the federal government.
If I understand correctly that deduction would
be $2500-5000 per year, which is problematical
in that with current pricing and available
coverages, it would be pretty difficult to find
a family policy in that range. That is why I
suggest requiring, by law, that insurance
companies offer basic medical coverage and
options for the full economic spectrum, making
insurance something even a poor family could
afford that would meet those basic needs.

I am not an advocate of using income tax deductions as incentive. But it is popular.

Allowing individuals to purchase group health is the incentive needed to create the new policies you and I advocate.
Most all policies now are geared to employer sponsoered or individual who either is self employed or gets some form reimbursement. The industry does nothave the products needed to cover America, and frankly I believe they have to be made to do it.

I would like federal regulation requireing all policies be available to all people, rates vary per individual. All covered must pay their own bills, reimbursement allowed but the payment must be the responsibility of the insured.

Then let the states regulate the details of the policies for regional confromance.

Basically the same thing we have now except the insured payer and freedom of choice.

The corruption the insurance lays on the doctors can be fixed with current laws and an administration with testicles.

I have contacted Pauls office several times over the years and not once did he respond to my concerns over Chemtrails. Being a doctor he should be aware of the health risks these Chemtrails pose to humans and all living things. In 2001 Kucinich mentions Chemtrails in HB 2977 for the first and only time. Look up people thats not water vapor turning our blue skies gray.

Bill R wrote:

<quoted text>
Bail our Fannie and Freddie? No.
While I do not buy into the full prescription
offered by Ron Paul, there comes a time when
those who are suffering serious anxiety and
discomfort are told the full nature of their
illness, which the case of the U.S. is an
accumulation of debt for which the answer is
the equivalent of letting the disease run its
course while being kept as comfortable as
possible during an essential time of economic
bed rest.
That means recognizing that giving the patient
a shot of economic stimulus only makes matters
worse and actually delays the recovery. The
patient can't rest if he keeps reaching for
the pile of plastic attached to his butt.

Oh Bill, your starting to sound like a Paul supporter again. The ole conservative coming out, the middle has ocillated to the right....

Free trade does not exist in todays America.

There will be a bailout, it will not end there.
Many banks and credit driven financials will fold in the coming months, to be bailed out by more unlimited lines of credit direct from the central bank.
Free trade is dead, the only place it is left is cocaine, and its cost are down 40% since 1984. Availablitiy is high and quality, I am told, is better.
With the inflation tax, permitts and regulation the local farmers market is no longer free trade.
Not quite central planned, but not quite free.
Still a good deal, though.

So McCain is going to head into the convention without the Paul camp ?
The Paul movement is going strong, even better now that this tired ole election stuff is over. As the news begins to play out the truth, as Paul told it, about our economic system and expansive federal role the distance and size of Pauls support will grow away from McCains neo-con, populist crowd. As Obama moves forward with the democratric party the need for a stable and rational "right" to Obamas somewhat rational left the Paul position is poised to meet that challenge.

So, thats the fallicy of McCains position of being just like the dems except a few moving differences. When the socialist begin moving this nation further left than it wants to go the populist/elitist will have to fight on the front lines, which they dont have the guts for, or enlist the true conservative/libertarians to fight on their behalf, again. And where will McCain be......standing in the middle of two idealogues fighting.....lost as usuall.

Old Hoosier line - If your riding the fence, with one foot planted firmly on each side and the fence is shaken with turmoil, where will you feel it ?
The Hoosier picks the proper side and places both feet on that side, eyes on the other.....

edd wrote:

I have contacted Pauls office several times over the years and not once did he respond to my concerns over Chemtrails. Being a doctor he should be aware of the health risks these Chemtrails pose to humans and all living things. In 2001 Kucinich mentions Chemtrails in HB 2977 for the first and only time. Look up people thats not water vapor turning our blue skies gray.

Mail it from his district.
And what do you suggest be done with these trails of chemical warfare.....?
Maybe we could export our tranportation pollution to India and China.....

LocalBoy wrote:

<quoted text>
Is Florida a Obama or McCain state this time around ?
Got an opinion on the proposed bailout of Freddie and Fannie - the federal twins ?

Florida - as usual has its collective head up its arse. We will again decide history, but this time becuase we cant make up our minds. Its pretty much a deadheat with most people holding their nose on either candidate.

Ahh the federal twins bailout. Its a difficult question considering these are two of very few examples of a quasia government/private institutions. Yes they have corporate structure and issue stock, but they have always had and were created to have direct government influence. Considering that Orlando is leading the way through the recession due to the housing crash, I am torn between philosiphy and neccesity. Philisophically, we should take the opportunity to reverse the market influences. Neccessarily I do not believe we can do that. The free market is long, long gone and manipulation has ruled the day for over a half of century. If we dont bail out the twins, and do much more to reverse the housing crunch the rest of you will begin to feel what Orlando has been going through for over a year.

Bill R wrote:

<quoted text>
Geez, Lorax, while you were out of the room the
rest of us were able to work out all of our
differences on the major issues facing Western
civilization, balanced the federal budget, and
generally came to agreement on any issue of
importance. We're just fussing about a few
details now .....
Seriously though, how's the teaching opportunities
looking for you over your way? You're not still
aggravated at my comments about middle class
responsibility, are you?
Hope this finds you well.....

Most opportunities are slim these days, but I am keeping busy. As for you all getting along...well I guess I will have to go read those 3000 posts because I dont buy it!

And I'm getting better... Thanks!

LocalBoy wrote:

<quoted text>I dont argue these points you make. I know government is coercive at all levels. The issue of government regulating markets is difficult.
Its not a matter of underestimating state influence. The states should work within boundries set up federally, and they do. Thats what I see as the root cause of this insurance problem. Poor federal oversight that leads to poor state systems.
I have no false hopes of an utopic society or perfect system. Limiting federal authority will not solve all the problems and in cases make it worse. Changing the citizens attitude about what is the role of government will be the single biggest achievement this generation can make, and will make. The role of government is the issue of the day and the one that will have the most influence in the lives of our grandchildren.
It is federal mandates and iniciatives that promote employerer sponsored health insurance. It is federal influence that allows the insurance to price fix the market. It is a central government concept to add the health insurance cost for 47% to all the products and services the citizens use and attempt to export. These are not state issues.
The insurance industry will provide diverse policies for diverse customers. Right now they dont have diversity amongst their customers. They are all businesses, not citizens.
They will provide diverse options as soon as they are put in a market full of diverse citizens that pay their premiums. Free market 101

See I knew I would be able to catch up. It all comes back to participation. I agree the single most important accomplishment is to educate the citizenry into utilizing their given Constitutional powers.

GLOBAL IDIOTS wrote:

<quoted text>
Hello All!
Fine , Thank you and you?
Lorax, I'd lost track also, getting back in the grove.

Good!

Bill says everyone is getting along...so I guess its up to us to stir the pot;)

LORAX wrote:

<quoted text>
Good!
Bill says everyone is getting along...so I guess its up to us to stir the pot;)

BWBHAHAAHAHHAHAAA Interesting! I love to stir big the pot! Time for a cookin! But it's missing something?
Uh Huh Go it!
Wanted! Tongues!
Served with my special marinated sauce and Melons! MMmmmm GOOOOD!
;o)'....

LORAX wrote:

<quoted text>
Florida - as usual has its collective head up its arse. We will again decide history, but this time becuase we cant make up our minds. Its pretty much a deadheat with most people holding their nose on either candidate.
Ahh the federal twins bailout. Its a difficult question considering these are two of very few examples of a quasia government/private institutions. Yes they have corporate structure and issue stock, but they have always had and were created to have direct government influence. Considering that Orlando is leading the way through the recession due to the housing crash, I am torn between philosiphy and neccesity. Philisophically, we should take the opportunity to reverse the market influences. Neccessarily I do not believe we can do that. The free market is long, long gone and manipulation has ruled the day for over a half of century. If we dont bail out the twins, and do much more to reverse the housing crunch the rest of you will begin to feel what Orlando has been going through for over a year.

Holding noses is getting common place.
Our resident McCain supporters have gone underground and the Obama people cant stand simple logic.

I understand the need for housing loans, just not sure more of the same is the answer.
I fear the reason we see little of these bundled securities is the can of worms that will be created from the sunlight.
If the twins become insolvent the securities will be auctioned and the loans either restructured, repaid or foreclosed and the market will recover.
THe fact is we will have housing depreciation and higher intrest rates, and the first sign of a bottom and money will be avalaible for loans on low cost/high value houses.
If we bail them out the system that created this bubble remains intact and the purchasers of these are ignored, who will restructure when we just delayed the bottom. The bonds will go with the morgtages, at reduced rates. Foreign money and its influence will dry up. Corporate money will decline and so to will the corruption the money brings.

All we need is for the fed to raise rates and start the fun.

Here is Ron Paul explaining his dissent on the housing bill recently passed.

Couple of notes
In the bill is the OK to raise the national debt by 800 billion

The private central bank will hold the deeds to all those properties, fullfilling the prophecy of Jefferson and Madison

In this bill for housing is a new law that requires ALL credit cards to disclose to the IRS All transactions.

Typical - 600 pages of federal intervention and unfunded mandates.

Heres Paul -http://news.goldseek.com/RonP aul/1216879620.php

That`s why our so called fail safe two party system isn`t working. Dems and Repub`s are the same, one as bad as another, we need new and a wide variety of people to vote on, this two idiots in the ring, is funny, The big two know, if a third party ever got money to campaign on,
they would be in danger, I say Open it up to a number of parties not just dumb and dumber........

So Bill....who are you voting for in November?

LocalBoy wrote:

<quoted text>Oh Bill, your starting to sound like a Paul supporter again. The ole conservative coming out, the middle has ocillated to the right....
Free trade does not exist in todays America.
There will be a bailout, it will not end there.
Many banks and credit driven financials will fold in the coming months, to be bailed out by more unlimited lines of credit direct from the central bank.
Free trade is dead, the only place it is left is cocaine, and its cost are down 40% since 1984. Availablitiy is high and quality, I am told, is better.
With the inflation tax, permitts and regulation the local farmers market is no longer free trade.
Not quite central planned, but not quite free.
Still a good deal, though.
So McCain is going to head into the convention without the Paul camp ?
The Paul movement is going strong, even better now that this tired ole election stuff is over. As the news begins to play out the truth, as Paul told it, about our economic system and expansive federal role the distance and size of Pauls support will grow away from McCains neo-con, populist crowd. As Obama moves forward with the democratric party the need for a stable and rational "right" to Obamas somewhat rational left the Paul position is poised to meet that challenge.
So, thats the fallicy of McCains position of being just like the dems except a few moving differences. When the socialist begin moving this nation further left than it wants to go the populist/elitist will have to fight on the front lines, which they dont have the guts for, or enlist the true conservative/libertarians to fight on their behalf, again. And where will McCain be......standing in the middle of two idealogues fighting.....lost as usuall.
Old Hoosier line - If your riding the fence, with one foot planted firmly on each side and the fence is shaken with turmoil, where will you feel it ?
The Hoosier picks the proper side and places both feet on that side, eyes on the other.....

Localboy - There is this peculiar notion among
many Ron Paul supporters that they alone have a
claim to the concept of fiscal responsibility and
sound business practices. I don't share that view
and believe that fiscal conservatism exists com-
fortably ... and has for a long, long time ...
without adopting Ron Paul's brand. I am a fiscal
conservative and need not embrace his monetary
solutions as he presents them with his gnostic
gospel of Austrian economics to push for a more
responsible federal government ... and equally
more responsible state and local governments.

We continually wrangle on these threads about one
national leader or another being the one to right
the ship or correct the economic course our nation
has taken during this and previous administra-
tions. It is on this point that I differ in many
respects with the skewed perspective this provides
us in regard to answers.

The fact is that, using a quoted phrase overused
in these discussions but applicable here, "we,
the people" are already providing the answers or
solutions in the financial decisions we make
every day. And though it confounds those who
deem themselves leaders, "we, the people" are
voting in ways that make sense for us as indivi-
duals. Collectively they are creating an eco-
nomic downturn that is the essential corrective.

More to follow, lest I "time out" ...

Whether "we, the people" are driven by $4 a gallon
gasoline, the deflated value of our 401Ks and IRAs,
the devalued dollar, credit card limits and the
high interest rates, the subprime debacle, or any
combination of these ... "we, the people" are
tightening our belts and ignoring the pleas of
those who want us to "stimulate the economy."
The cat is out of the bag and the number of people
who perceive that those who would have us stimulate
the economy are doing so for reasons other than
our best interests. Anyone with an economic
pulse knows we are in a recession and have been
for months now.

I spend time with my clients on a daily basis
and the common thread among them in a keen aware-
ness of the sea change now taking place in the
American economy. Most see it as a permanent
movement toward a different kind of reality for
most Americans than we wouldn't have imagined a
decade ago. Many seem to see it as a positive
thing, having grown weary of an American driven
by overconsumption, frivolous and superficial
lifestyles, narcissism, and greed. They see the
"sea change" as a necessary and welcome corrective
to recover a more sensible America.

LORAX wrote:

<quoted text>
Most opportunities are slim these days, but I am keeping busy. As for you all getting along...well I guess I will have to go read those 3000 posts because I dont buy it!
And I'm getting better... Thanks!

I didn't think you'd buy my line about everyone
having reached agreement and getting along while
working out a few remaining details. Hopefully
though, this thread more than most has managed
to avoid the usual Topix flair for drawing in the
trolls and becoming bogged down in one line
insults and expressions of bad taste. I've
really appreciated that about this thread, which
is why I've stayed active on it.

Glad you're still among us.

In one of Paul's most memorable speeches to date, the Congressman spoke of rampant authoritarianism having replaced the principles of liberty that the United States was founded upon and warned that current empire building financed through inflation and debt signals a most frightening period in history.

"Our arrogance and aggressiveness have been used to promote a world empire backed by the most powerful army of history. This type of globalist intervention creates problems for all citizens of the world and fails to contribute to the well-being of the world's populations. Just think how our personal liberties have been trashed here at home in the last decade." Paul urged fellow representatives.

God I love this guy. If i was gay I would totally. Nevermind.

Bill R wrote:

<quoted text>
Localboy - There is this peculiar notion among
many Ron Paul supporters that they alone have a
claim to the concept of fiscal responsibility and
sound business practices. I don't share that view
and believe that fiscal conservatism exists com-
fortably ... and has for a long, long time ...
without adopting Ron Paul's brand. I am a fiscal
conservative and need not embrace his monetary
solutions as he presents them with his gnostic
gospel of Austrian economics to push for a more
responsible federal government ... and equally
more responsible state and local governments.
We continually wrangle on these threads about one
national leader or another being the one to right
the ship or correct the economic course our nation
has taken during this and previous administra-
tions. It is on this point that I differ in many
respects with the skewed perspective this provides
us in regard to answers.
The fact is that, using a quoted phrase overused
in these discussions but applicable here, "we,
the people" are already providing the answers or
solutions in the financial decisions we make
every day. And though it confounds those who
deem themselves leaders, "we, the people" are
voting in ways that make sense for us as indivi-
duals. Collectively they are creating an eco-
nomic downturn that is the essential corrective.
More to follow, lest I "time out" ...

You say "Ron Paul's brand" but there is no such thing. Ron Paul's brand is the same as John McCain's brand, just with a few differences. Ron Paul claims to believe what John McCain claims to believe, they just have different ways of showing it. That is why they are both Republicans. If you need not embrace Ron Paul then you also need not embrace McCain, because they are both fiscal conservatives like you.

You say that conservatism is in a comfortable position. I disagree. You say that the economic downturn is natural? Natural like forest fires, natural in that it is a necessary process in destruction and regrowth? Is bailing out F & F a part of this necessary process? Is price-fixing natural or artificial? What does John McCain think about F & F, price-fixing, and natural processes? I think conservatism used to be in a comfortable position, not anymore. Look around you at what we're doing today, is this natural?

I am not waiting for a superhero like Ron Paul to solve everything for us, I am waiting for someone who knows how to let the people make their own decisions and who knows how to let the natural process steer us in a new economic direction without interfering. We will right the economic downturn ourselves, but not if there is something or someone stopping us.

refugee wrote:

That`s why our so called fail safe two party system isn`t working. Dems and Repub`s are the same, one as bad as another, we need new and a wide variety of people to vote on, this two idiots in the ring, is funny, The big two know, if a third party ever got money to campaign on,
they would be in danger, I say Open it up to a number of parties not just dumb and dumber........

One thing I don't get about some people who believe this is that they blame the government for the two-party system when it is our own fault. The voters began the two-party system themselves so they will have to end it as well.

Friend of Bill R wrote:

So Bill....who are you voting for in November?

Bill will be voting for John McCain this election I believe, unless he has been having misgivings. John McCain, if you do not know already, is running as a Republican and calls himself a conservative. He's a good man in the way George Bush is a good man, he wants to help us but doesn't always know how. Nevertheless he is an honest man, at least sometimes, more honest than others of course. He is a smart person if you look past some minor errors and mistakes that make him look like he doesn't know what he's doing, maybe you could pass it off as old age. However McCain's age does not matter this election, and neither do his inconsistencies. McCain has proven, despite his flaws, that he is capable of winning the general election and becoming our president. True conservative or not he will rally conservatives from all walks of life and make them believe in the good of America again. The conservatives will give him their vote and he will strike down socialism, just not all of socialism. He doesn't want to do that, and maybe it's because he's a smart man and maybe it's just because he doesn't quite know it exists, kind of like how George Bush doesn't know the price of gas, but whatever the reason it is likely that McCain will be our president. I know Obama is in the lead, but after what Obama's done recently I'm not so sure the inspiration he once had is there anymore. I know McCain will be a fine president, he just won't be much of a conservative. I respect Bill's choice, even if I don't agree with it, because McCain is making every effort to show us that he is a fine president (except to the Paul supporters, he likes to think they don't matter). So do the Paul supporters matter? I like to think they do, and I also like to think that unless McCain gives them what they want they will not vote for him. Even though McCain will be a good, honest president, I want the Paul supporters to vote their beliefs, and if they do not match McCain's than I hope they do not vote for him, even though McCain is a good man. I believe we should all vote our beliefs, and so if Bill believes in John McCain then I cannot begrudge him for voting for him. McCain's come such a long way, if he does become our president then I hope he will do a good job. He's changed, I know, moved more to the center like Obama, and maybe that's good and maybe it's bad but it is certainly the truth. Is that what Paul supporters want? The Iraq war is not about conservatism or liberalism, it has nothing to do with either, yet McCain the conservative wants to keep making progress there. Is that what Paul supporters want? I trust McCain to do a fine job as president, but no he is not who I want, and I am a Paul supporter. I believe the difference between me and Bill is that Bill believes conservatism can survive McCain while I am not willing to take that risk.

Bill R wrote:

<quoted text>
I didn't think you'd buy my line about everyone
having reached agreement and getting along while
working out a few remaining details. Hopefully
though, this thread more than most has managed
to avoid the usual Topix flair for drawing in the
trolls and becoming bogged down in one line
insults and expressions of bad taste. I've
really appreciated that about this thread, which
is why I've stayed active on it.
Glad you're still among us.

Naturally we all agree on the important parts, just not the details. Bill likes to believe that conservatism is self-sustaining, and I agree for the most part. However I would rather reward a liberal for doing something liberal than reward a conservative for doing something liberal. A minor difference, that's all.