Protests against a visit to Greece by US Secretary of State...

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
yes..that is why the only Superpower Americans are "winning"in Iraq and Afghanistan and committing ever icreasing numbers of ground troops!you are a simpleton!
p.s ; just a word of warning..when you try to post in the "art of war"...you are debating with the wrong race...go and learn some..then some again!

I said "countries like greece and Turkey" so read my posts before rushing to answer idiocies. All clashes between such countries are taking place for 1-2 days and this is a fact for the last years. Now for the Americans vs Iraq it is the dogma of counter-insurgency that makes them need ground forces for occupation, I do not argue that there are maybe a lot of people in Turkey with knowledge of warfare but it is clear that you are not one of them. Do you have any idea who wrote "Art of War"?. I shall answer so as not to make it difficult for you. There are two great essays with this title, one from Sun Tzu and one from Baron de Jomini. I suggest you read these along with Clausewitz before posting on these topics again. And finally when you post on warfare try to find someone else that it is not his job or else you appear funny.

Nikitaras wrote:

<quoted text>
You never answered me though why you never challenged greek sovereignity of the Aegean for so many years and only started after 1974

there were no reasons then...but when your fascists tried to hellenise an independent island and a state we had to cat to guarantee the lives of our brethren and not allow Greeks to surround us with their own way of colonising,by militarising the entire island so near to our Motherland..in short...you asked for it and got it...sure as hell we are not gonna give that up now...ever,as it would be detrimental to our safety and security until we enter into the EU ,then we all become partners and there is no need to take up arms against each other anymore...
furthermore,i think you should read your comrade cgf,to see how the future of TR and GR should be conducted...

Nikitaras wrote:

<quoted text>
I said "countries like greece and Turkey" so read my posts before rushing to answer idiocies. All clashes between such countries are taking place for 1-2 days and this is a fact for the last years. Now for the Americans vs Iraq it is the dogma of counter-insurgency that makes them need ground forces for occupation, I do not argue that there are maybe a lot of people in Turkey with knowledge of warfare but it is clear that you are not one of them. Do you have any idea who wrote "Art of War"?. I shall answer so as not to make it difficult for you. There are two great essays with this title, one from Sun Tzu and one from Baron de Jomini. I suggest you read these along with Clausewitz before posting on these topics again. And finally when you post on warfare try to find someone else that it is not his job or else you appear funny.

Nikita...
again your face is still buried into the pillow ehen you try to make sense...
you are such an idiot at times,i dont think you should even have any pcs to post,as in your case it is wasteful use of electricity...
i was in the army-as all Turks do for 18 months!
the point i am trying to make here is this;i do not care how strong you are in the air,for a sustained war efford unless your army is strong..you have no chance...look at israel..they got fcuked over in lebanon as they did not have the ground troop strength...period..do not worry about all that ballox about ehud talking about they achieved what they went in to achieve...they did no such thing and even alienated te locals a lot more...
also do not keep giving me all the garbage about this military book that military book...as a nation we wrote all those books..your well publicised Chinese,
were building the great wall to stop my ancestors.!not y!!ours..not that they could!...so learn the truth...Germans may have: Mercedes, as their national brand...we have the Turkish Forces as ours...
so wise up boy and appreciate a kind of protection we can give your lot too if you became our friends...but a shot in the dark i`d say!

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
there were no reasons then...but when your fascists tried to hellenise an independent island and a state we had to cat to guarantee the lives of our brethren and not allow Greeks to surround us with their own way of colonising,by militarising the entire island so near to our Motherland..in short...you asked for it and got it...sure as hell we are not gonna give that up now...ever,as it would be detrimental to our safety and security until we enter into the EU ,then we all become partners and there is no need to take up arms against each other anymore...
furthermore,i think you should read your comrade cgf,to see how the future of TR and GR should be conducted...

You do not seem to answer, I am talking about the Aegean not Cyprus which is something else. Turkey never had any claims on the Aegean until 1974. After the invasion of Cyprus suddenly you remembered that you have claims on the Aegean. Why did this change?

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
Nikita...
again your face is still buried into the pillow ehen you try to make sense...
you are such an idiot at times,i dont think you should even have any pcs to post,as in your case it is wasteful use of electricity...
i was in the army-as all Turks do for 18 months!
the point i am trying to make here is this;i do not care how strong you are in the air,for a sustained war efford unless your army is strong..you have no chance...look at israel..they got fcuked over in lebanon as they did not have the ground troop strength...period..do not worry about all that ballox about ehud talking about they achieved what they went in to achieve...they did no such thing and even alienated te locals a lot more...
also do not keep giving me all the garbage about this military book that military book...as a nation we wrote all those books..your well publicised Chinese,
were building the great wall to stop my ancestors.!not y!!ours..not that they could!...so learn the truth...Germans may have: Mercedes, as their national brand...we have the Turkish Forces as ours...
so wise up boy and appreciate a kind of protection we can give your lot too if you became our friends...but a shot in the dark i`d say!

We were mastering the arts of war a long time before you were capable of hearding goats so do not try to educate me on this. Infantry tactics first developed in Greece and then spread worldwide. Noone denies that the Turkish military has a long tradition but it is sure that your grasp on things is quite far. Serving in the army as you did or as I did does not make someone understand tactics and operations.
You keep giving examples of counter-insurgence warfare e.g. The Israel against Lebannon while I speak for DEVELOPED COUNTRIES CLASHES with NORMAL ARMY and WITH INTERNATIONAL POLITICAL IMPACT.
I am talking for countries like Greece, Turkey, Spain etc.
If there was ever a war AMONGST THESE countries it would probably last a couple of days which is not enough for ground operations.
On the opposite if one of these countries was to have a counter-insurgence warfare e.g. Turkey against PKK, Israel against Hezbulah, etc. the airforce would not help much and ground forces would be needed. Hopefully this time you shall understand what I am saying.

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
as a nation we wrote all those books
so wise up boy and appreciate a kind of protection we can give your lot too if you became our friends

Which books exactly are these? Any ISBN numbers?

Did we say we need any protection? We did not because the only threat for our sovereignity comes from Turkey not any of our other neighbours, or do you think you shall protect us from Italy?(Like you did not do in 1940)

Nikitaras wrote:

<quoted text>
You do not seem to answer, I am talking about the Aegean not Cyprus which is something else. Turkey never had any claims on the Aegean until 1974. After the invasion of Cyprus suddenly you remembered that you have claims on the Aegean. Why did this change?

The entire Mediterranean was a Turkish lake for 400 years and Aeegean was a part of that lake...
we did not make any fuss over it then as your lot did not try to sorround us with all kinds of military gadgetry on the islands under the pretence of"self-defence"but everybody has a breaking point you know...and you reached ours with that little number in Cyprus then the gloves were off!

Nikitaras wrote:

<quoted text>
We were mastering the arts of war a long time before you were capable of hearding goats so do not try to educate me on this. Infantry tactics first developed in Greece and then spread worldwide. Noone denies that the Turkish military has a long tradition but it is sure that your grasp on things is quite far. Serving in the army as you did or as I did does not make someone understand tactics and operations.
You keep giving examples of counter-insurgence warfare e.g. The Israel against Lebannon while I speak for DEVELOPED COUNTRIES CLASHES with NORMAL ARMY and WITH INTERNATIONAL POLITICAL IMPACT.
I am talking for countries like Greece, Turkey, Spain etc.
If there was ever a war AMONGST THESE countries it would probably last a couple of days which is not enough for ground operations.
On the opposite if one of these countries was to have a counter-insurgence warfare e.g. Turkey against PKK, Israel against Hezbulah, etc. the airforce would not help much and ground forces would be needed. Hopefully this time you shall understand what I am saying.

Nikki..
galloping again before you can walk...
shepherding herds???ha..ha..ha.. the only herds we were shepherding were the most intelligent human population on earth for 5 centruies-not like your lot fighting against the savages and the unprepared!
or the Brits in Africa,nor the USA for the native Indians...so take some notice...
any force that has reconnaisance unit in their mists is copied from Turks,any guerilla war that is fallowed today and in the past,was copied from us,huge logistical tactics-as in the conquest of Istanbul 1453!-was never even tried before- and Americans did the last in 1991 Gulf War...!
In short,we never learned anything from your undisciplined toy-soldiers-look at the traditional gear with pom-poms and feminine stockings!he..he..he..!-but invented the art ourselves,fine tuned it and now sell it as commodity to many countries in the world...the only part we cannot sell is our hearts and minds!
i am also yet to see any power on earth finishing a war in 1-2 days,irrespective of its size or capabilities..Nukes??? laughable,,they cannot use them due to the nuclear cloud circling the earth and sooner or later give off the fall out to the instigaters too...so Nikki...all is not as it seems,nor is it as you tell...

Nikitaras wrote:

<quoted text>
Which books exactly are these? Any ISBN numbers?
Did we say we need any protection? We did not because the only threat for our sovereignity comes from Turkey not any of our other neighbours, or do you think you shall protect us from Italy?(Like you did not do in 1940)

We like Italians!!!
Protection term was meant in a general European Union kind of protection for all of Europe incld Greece-since the entire continent seem to need our military
wherever there is a trouble spot!
Where are heroic Greek soldires in all this??
In their barracks,sipping ouzo and getting high on metaxas!

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
The entire Mediterranean was a Turkish lake for 400 years and Aeegean was a part of that lake...
we did not make any fuss over it then as your lot did not try to sorround us with all kinds of military gadgetry on the islands under the pretence of"self-defence"but everybody has a breaking point you know...and you reached ours with that little number in Cyprus then the gloves were off!

Minor Asia was also Greek for two thousand years but you do not see us flying over and as far as weaponry is concerned I have to remind you that you have an army called "aegean army". So do not talk to me about armamaments since Greece does not use it offensively.

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
Nikki..
galloping again before you can walk...

Now please let me take you to a trip 2.000 years before Turkish tribes foot in Minor Asia and almost 1.000 years before they even existed. We are in Athens long before the Persian wars.

Every citizen, physically fit, is liable to military service from his eighteenth to his sixtieth year. To make efficient soldiers is really the main end of the constant physical exercise. If a young man takes pride in his hard and fit body, if he flings spears at the stadium, and learns to race in full armor, if he goes on long marches in the hot sun, if he sleeps on the open hillside, or lies on a bed of rushes watching the moon rise over the sea,--it is all to prepare himself for a worthy part in the "big day" when Athens will confront some old or new enemy on the battlefield. A great deal of the conversation among the younger men is surely not about Platonic ideals, Demosthenes's last political speech, nor the best fighting cocks; it is about spears, shield-straps, camping ground, rations, ambuscades, or the problems of naval warfare.

The final trumpets have blown, and the troops fall into their places. Each tribal "taxis" lines up its "lochoi." The Greeks have no flags nor standards. There is a great deal of subaltern officers, running up and down the ranks. Presently everything is in formal array. The hoplites stand in close order, each man about two feet from the next, leaving no gaps between each division from end to end of the lines. The men are set in eight long ranks. This is the normal "phalanx" order. The men in the rear will add to the battering force of the charge, and crowding in closely, wedge themselves promptly to the front, when any of the first rank goes down. The object would be to give each man just enough distance to let him make fair use of his lance, and yet have his shield overlap that of his neighbor. It is an imposing sight when the strategos in charge of the maneuvers, a stately man in a red chlamys, gives the final word "March!" Loud pipes begin screaming. The long lines of red, blue, and orange plumes nod fiercely together. The sun strikes fire out of thousands of brandished lance tips. The phalanx goes swinging away over the dusty parade ground, the subalterns up and down the files muttering angrily to each inapt recruit to "Keep your distance:" or "Don't advance your shield." The commandant duly orders the "Half turn:" "Left" or "Right turn:" "Formation by squares," and finally the critical "Change front to rear." If this last maneuver is successfully accomplished, the strategos will compliment the drill sergeants; for it is notoriously difficult to turn a ponderous phalanx around and yet make it keep good order. The drilling goes on until the welcome order comes, "Ground arms!" and every perspiring soldier lets his heavy shield slip from his arm upon the ground.

As for the Navy:
From the Battle of Salamis (480 BC) to Aegospotami (404 BC) Athens was totally supreme at sea
its size and sophistication were amazing; the resources necessary to build and maintain a fleet of 200 were mind-boggling.[200 were replaced after a disaster in Egypt in 454 BC] Advances in Greek warship design were aimed at achieving the speed necessary for successful ramming without loss of stability.

So as you see we have a tradition going back almost 4000 years and yes logistic support was surely known both to Alexander and to the Greeks conquering Troy so do not brag on an invasion of it. I can surely give you some info in order to impress other people on Turkish battle prowess:

The massive use of artillery in a siege took place on the siege of Constantinople by th Turks although the Cannons used were manufactured by Austrian Engineers.

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
We like Italians!!!
Protection term was meant in a general European Union kind of protection for all of Europe incld Greece-since the entire continent seem to need our military
wherever there is a trouble spot!
Where are heroic Greek soldires in all this??
In their barracks,sipping ouzo and getting high on metaxas!

Hey you have got it wrong. Have you seen any current invasions on europe? Who are you going to protect? Italy? From whom? France? Don't make yourself seem more naive than you really are.

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
Nikki..
galloping again before you can walk...

Now please let me take you to a trip 2.000 years before Turkish tribes foot in Minor Asia and almost 1.000 years before they even existed. We are in Athens long before the Persian wars.

Every citizen, physically fit, is liable to military service from his eighteenth to his sixtieth year. To make efficient soldiers is really the main end of the constant physical exercise. If a young man takes pride in his hard and fit body, if he flings spears at the stadium, and learns to race in full armor, if he goes on long marches in the hot sun, if he sleeps on the open hillside, or lies on a bed of rushes watching the moon rise over the sea,--it is all to prepare himself for a worthy part in the "big day" when Athens will confront some old or new enemy on the battlefield. A great deal of the conversation among the younger men is surely not about Platonic ideals, Demosthenes's last political speech, nor the best fighting cocks; it is about spears, shield-straps, camping ground, rations, ambuscades, or the problems of naval warfare.

The final trumpets have blown, and the troops fall into their places. Each tribal "taxis" lines up its "lochoi." The Greeks have no flags nor standards. There is a great deal of subaltern officers, running up and down the ranks. Presently everything is in formal array. The hoplites stand in close order, each man about two feet from the next, leaving no gaps between each division from end to end of the lines. The men are set in eight long ranks. This is the normal "phalanx" order. The men in the rear will add to the battering force of the charge, and crowding in closely, wedge themselves promptly to the front, when any of the first rank goes down. The object would be to give each man just enough distance to let him make fair use of his lance, and yet have his shield overlap that of his neighbor. It is an imposing sight when the strategos in charge of the maneuvers, a stately man in a red chlamys, gives the final word "March!" Loud pipes begin screaming. The long lines of red, blue, and orange plumes nod fiercely together. The sun strikes fire out of thousands of brandished lance tips. The phalanx goes swinging away over the dusty parade ground, the subalterns up and down the files muttering angrily to each inapt recruit to "Keep your distance:" or "Don't advance your shield." The commandant duly orders the "Half turn:" "Left" or "Right turn:" "Formation by squares," and finally the critical "Change front to rear." If this last maneuver is successfully accomplished, the strategos will compliment the drill sergeants; for it is notoriously difficult to turn a ponderous phalanx around and yet make it keep good order. The drilling goes on until the welcome order comes, "Ground arms!" and every perspiring soldier lets his heavy shield slip from his arm upon the ground.

As for the Navy:
From the Battle of Salamis (480 BC) to Aegospotami (404 BC) Athens was totally supreme at sea
its size and sophistication were amazing; the resources necessary to build and maintain a fleet of 200 were mind-boggling.[200 were replaced after a disaster in Egypt in 454 BC] Advances in Greek warship design were aimed at achieving the speed necessary for successful ramming without loss of stability.

So as you see we have a tradition going back almost 4000 years and yes logistic support was surely known both to Alexander and to the Greeks conquering Troy so do not brag on an invasion of it. I can surely give you some info in order to impress other people on Turkish battle prowess:

The massive use of artillery in a siege took place on the siege of Constantinople by th Turks although the Cannons used were manufactured by Austrian Engineers.

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
Nikki..
galloping again before you can walk...
shepherding herds???

Let me take you to a trip 2000 years before Turksih tribes set foot on Minor Asia and almost 1000 years before they even existed. It is a time way before the Persian wars and we are in Athens:

Every citizen, physically fit, is liable to military service from his eighteenth to his sixtieth year. To make efficient soldiers is really the main end of the constant physical exercise. If a young man takes pride in his hard and fit body, if he flings spears at the stadium, and learns to race in full armor, if he goes on long marches in the hot sun, if he sleeps on the open hillside, or lies on a bed of rushes watching the moon rise over the sea,--it is all to prepare himself for a worthy part in the "big day" when Athens will confront some old or new enemy on the battlefield. A great deal of the conversation among the younger men is surely not about Platonic ideals, Demosthenes's last political speech, nor the best fighting cocks; it is about spears, shield-straps, camping ground, rations, ambuscades, or the problems of naval warfare.

The final trumpets have blown, and the troops fall into their places. Each tribal "taxis" lines up its "lochoi." The Greeks have no flags nor standards. There is a great deal of subaltern officers, running up and down the ranks. Presently everything is in formal array. The hoplites stand in close order, each man about two feet from the next, leaving no gaps between each division from end to end of the lines. The men are set in eight long ranks. This is the normal "phalanx" order. The men in the rear will add to the battering force of the charge, and crowding in closely, wedge themselves promptly to the front, when any of the first rank goes down. The object would be to give each man just enough distance to let him make fair use of his lance, and yet have his shield overlap that of his neighbor. It is an imposing sight when the strategos in charge of the maneuvers, a stately man in a red chlamys, gives the final word "March!" Loud pipes begin screaming. The long lines of red, blue, and orange plumes nod fiercely together. The sun strikes fire out of thousands of brandished lance tips. The phalanx goes swinging away over the dusty parade ground, the subalterns up and down the files muttering angrily to each inapt recruit to "Keep your distance:" or "Don't advance your shield." The commandant duly orders the "Half turn:" "Left" or "Right turn:" "Formation by squares," and finally the critical "Change front to rear." If this last maneuver is successfully accomplished, the strategos will compliment the drill sergeants; for it is notoriously difficult to turn a ponderous phalanx around and yet make it keep good order. The drilling goes on until the welcome order comes, "Ground arms!" and every perspiring soldier lets his heavy shield slip from his arm upon the ground.

Nikitaras wrote:

As for the Navy:
From the Battle of Salamis (480 BC) to Aegospotami (404 BC) Athens was totally supreme at sea
its size and sophistication were amazing; the resources necessary to build and maintain a fleet of 200 were mind-boggling.[200 were replaced after a disaster in Egypt in 454 BC] Advances in Greek warship design were aimed at achieving the speed necessary for successful ramming without loss of stability.
So as you see we have a tradition going back almost 4000 years and yes logistic support was surely known both to Alexander and to the Greeks conquering Troy so do not brag on an invasion of it. I can surely give you some info in order to impress other people on Turkish battle prowess:
The massive use of artillery in a siege took place on the siege of Constantinople by th Turks although the Cannons used were manufactured by Austrian Engineers.

Nikki...nikki...nikki...

this is exactly what i mean...you are stuck in the past and you cannot see the present through old pair of glasses...wise up or lose up!
tks for proving my point once more..
ready with present situ and any progressive ideas...nothing else...as it is all candyfloss!

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
Nikki...nikki...nikki...
this is exactly what i mean...you are stuck in the past and you cannot see the present through old pair of glasses...wise up or lose up!
tks for proving my point once more..
ready with present situ and any progressive ideas...nothing else...as it is all candyfloss!

You are completely wrong. I am referring constantly to the present. It is just that I do not like the past distorted. Of course I did not prove your point since I gave you info on tactics being used in Greek lands since before 1000BC which is a date far before you were ever mentioned anywhere. This of course has nothing to do on your prowess in following years. So as you see I like puting things in order.

And please I am tired giving you historical info on which you give no real answers or facts for me to seek out more of the truth. There are others that do, please follow them.

Nikitaras wrote:

<quoted text>
You are completely wrong. I am referring constantly to the present. It is just that I do not like the past distorted. Of course I did not prove your point since I gave you info on tactics being used in Greek lands since before 1000BC which is a date far before you were ever mentioned anywhere. This of course has nothing to do on your prowess in following years. So as you see I like puting things in order.
And please I am tired giving you historical info on which you give no real answers or facts for me to seek out more of the truth. There are others that do, please follow them.

Nikki...
too much outdated info aint gonna achieve anything...
we all know the history...wrongs have been done by both parties-you do not see us posting here,the inhuman violence that your civilised(") Hellenic soldiers did on our civilian population when Greece invaded us with the help of the brits and the french that led to our war of independence and eventual clearing of your lot from our lands!-so we learned from the past and trying to shape our future in a more peaceful way...
i shall no longer entertain your historical approach as we need to move with the times.
tks
a.t.

Ali Turkoglu wrote:

<quoted text>
Nikki...
too much outdated info aint gonna achieve anything...
we all know the history...wrongs have been done by both parties-you do not see us posting here,the inhuman violence that your civilised(") Hellenic soldiers did on our civilian population when Greece invaded us with the help of the brits and the french that led to our war of independence and eventual clearing of your lot from our lands!-so we learned from the past and trying to shape our future in a more peaceful way...
i shall no longer entertain your historical approach as we need to move with the times.
tks
a.t.

I surely agree on moving to the future. The persistent in historic facts is a guardian against future attrocities.

Nikitaras wrote:

<quoted text>
I surely agree on moving to the future. The persistent in historic facts is a guardian against future attrocities.

i take your point...still one has to find ways of achieving the difficult task of our two nations trusting each other again and enjoying the common culture that we all are blessed with!!!this is what i want to hear now...no more antiquities!