In America, atheists are still in the closet

Apr 11, 2012 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Spiked

So do many other interest and identity groups. Complaint is our political lingua franca: it's what Occupiers, Tea Partiers, Wall Street titans, religious and irreligious people share.

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12,681 - 12,700 of 47,724 Comments Last updated Sep 4, 2013

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

of your own extinction......

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#12990
Jun 1, 2012
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
It's only a matter of degree. If war is more common or more brutal when religion is present, then it is a partial cause of the horror of the war whether it was all or part of the initial cause or not.
The complaint isn't that Christianity causes war, but that it facilitates it. That's why all the nonsense about whether Hitler was Christian or not is irrelevant. What mattered is that he had rule over a nation of Christians, whose clergy delivered the consent of the Christian majority with religious arguments, including Gott Mit Uns (look for the Gott Mit Mitt belt buckle coming soon).
To a Christian, ANYTHING that they think that their god wants or does is automatically loving, kind, just and merciful, including a final solution to the "Jewish problem." That's the damage that religion does in such a setting.
I know that Christianity didn't teach Hitler to do what he did, or cause that war. So what. It facilitated death and terror. That's good enough to reject it as a moral system, and want it gone form our lives. Hitler would have had a hard time with a nation composed of people like the unbelievers posting in these threads. What do you think we would say to Luther or Hitler?
For Luther, see [7] at http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T...
You're just wrong about this religion.
<quoted text>
This is pretty dishonest. How could atheism play a role in anything?
Did you mean Communism, or Leninism, or Stalinism? They're just religions with despots as god - vicious ideologies and cults of personality. And they have nothing to do with any of the unbelievers that you are posting with here.
I'm a secular humanist. We'll do better than the spirit crushing, authoritarian ideologies of nihilism, despair, terror and violence like Christianity and Stalinism.
True Truth wrote: "Obviously where religious people are at war, religion will play some sort of role."
Unfortunately, it's one that facilitates and amplifies it, at least when the Abrahamic religions are involved.
You would do better? Are you a senator or at least in some level of politics? Are you a public figure?

Who will decide what is humanistic and what is not? You? Is the American nation going to listen to your version of humanism? When the military decides that Guantanamo bay is simply torturing a few humans to protect millions of humans, what would say? Would you call that humanistic? Or would you rather say Guantanamo is not humanistic and shut it down and be accused of putting millions of human lives at risk of terrorist attacks.

What is more humanistic? Capitalism or socialism? Who will decide?

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

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#12991
Jun 1, 2012
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
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Yet you still have had the audacity to deride my take on the problem of religion in my culture. You imply that I inrordinately hostile toward religion, blindly bigoted, and refusing to see the good of it.
Oh, and BTW, I GUARANTEE you that you are wrong about what Christians want in Africa. It's the same thing they want in Europe Asia and the Americas - a Christian ecclesiarchy: God's kingdom on earth. You don't know them like we do. Read this and weep: "Theocratic Dominionism Gains Influence"
http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n1/chris...
I do not deride your take on religion in your culture. I deride your take on religion in the world, without having seen the world.

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

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#12992
Jun 1, 2012
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
"Guantanamo bay is the humanistic thing to do. Just imprison people without trial and piss on them all day all in the name of "national security"
You don't have a fucking idea what you're talking about, and you are offensive. Shall I start spreading slanderous trash about Muslims to keep up with you. jihad boy?
Humanists are horrified by Gitmo. Preserving the right not to be tortured is not expensive. It actually costs more to deny it.
Plus, I think you're repeating yourself, and I believe that I've said all I have to say. I support political and social secular humanism, and a government that is about 70-80% regulated capitalism, and about 20-30% socialism. That means about an average of 25% of income going into the kitty as taxes, most of that going to infrastructure, human development, and the social safety net.
I see no value for religion anywhere, but especially for organized, politicized religion in the United States. The faith experience for me in my world is one of an cruel and infantilizing ideology. I applaud its atrophy and journey into irrelevance.
You disagree.
Does that about summarize it?
70-80% regulated capitalism? 20-30% socialism? What does that mean exactly? What is included in these figures? How do you even attempt to quantify policy? And 25% of what income? Earned income, sole proprietorship income? Corporate income? Capital gains income?

Secular humanism is just as open to interpretation as any religion. While you and perhaps other humanists you know may look at Guantanamo as horrific, others may very easily argue that Guantanamo is torturing a few humans to keep millions of humans safe, and is hence a humanistic decision.

My point is, who will decide?

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

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#12993
Jun 1, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
No I am not. Apparently, you have no idea what I am saying.
<quoted text>
Wrong again. I concern myself exclusively with the problem of politicized, organized Christianity in America. I never discuss the Canadian or South African problem. Nor the Muslim problem in America.
I don't care about Christians individually except the ones that mouth off here.
<quoted text>
Yes, you do.
<quoted text>
I hope you enjoy them. Do you want some of our?
<quoted text>
You haven't been paying attention.
<quoted text>
The hell you aren't. You are extremely biased in favor of religion. You keep telling me what a wonderful thing Christianity is. You'll learn.
<quoted text>
Me, too. Later.
Oh please, you ramble on about Christianity, period. You don't talk exclusively about Christians in America. You go and on and on about the evil of Christianity, not the evil of American Christians.

There are a multitude of American televangelists that you can discuss and criticise. You can talk about that stupid creationist museum in Kentucky and how it is misleading the public. Talk about abortion and stem cell generation and their hinderance of it. Name the churches and the church groups you have encountered. You don't do that. You just ramble on about "Christianity", and claim to be a great authority on the matter. You assert that I don't know them, only you know them, and I have yet to learn.

I do not tell you how wonderful Christianity is. I tell you that it is not as bad as you assert it to be, or more accurately they are no different to any other group of people.

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

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#12994
Jun 1, 2012
 
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
What WOULD you say to someone who said god spoke to them?
I'd ask who their god is.
AllAboardll

Bridgeport, AL

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#12995
Jun 1, 2012
 

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True Truth wrote:
<quoted text>I do not deride your take on religion in your culture. I deride your take on religion in the world, without having seen the world.
True Truth speak nothing except..
True Truth...Much love & thanks to our savior Jesus Christ..& to the true truth & to the speaking in all our hearts in one accord, as You said we would know & to this divine plan that You have laid out for us all that choose to SEE, love, follow & watch. Much Love to you True Truth & to all. We are ready to walk with Christ forever & He is ready for us. God Bless
and the Truth

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

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#12996
Jun 1, 2012
 
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Do you use the Bible as the source of your religious beliefs?
2. How is Christianity different where you live? Do they not believe in the Hebrew God/Jesus?
3. Have you proven that the God of your holy book exists?
When you answer these three questions honestly, we may have something left with which we can have a conversation.
1. Nope. I'm a muslim.
2. Most Christians in South Africa don't seek to put their Bible into politics. They believe in Jesus.
3. Nope. I have belief, and personal evidence that is good enough for me.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

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#12997
Jun 1, 2012
 
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text> Don't cry, but she turned us down.
Just as well. Hehehe.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

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#12998
Jun 1, 2012
 
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text>Off on another OCD trek. Does anyone have some chocolate?
Bowl of M&Ms...

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#12999
Jun 1, 2012
 
barefoot2626 wrote:
<quoted text>

Did you come up with the name of the USA state religion, btw?
It would seem to be stupidity.

The US has made a religion of it.

You appear to be its pope.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#13000
Jun 1, 2012
 
barefoot2626 wrote:
<quoted text>Let me know when you find it.

Unlike the UK, the USA is a secular country.

The church of the USA doesn't appoint members to Congress or require collective worship.

As happens in the UK.
And yet, the US is more religious than the UK.

Imagine that.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#13001
Jun 1, 2012
 
True Truth wrote:
<quoted text>I'd ask who their god is.
So as long as their god is the same one that speaks to you, they're sane?

But if their god, who speaks to them, is not the same as yours, they're not sane?

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#13002
Jun 1, 2012
 
True Truth wrote:
<quoted text>70-80% regulated capitalism? 20-30% socialism? What does that mean exactly? What is included in these figures? How do you even attempt to quantify policy? And 25% of what income? Earned income, sole proprietorship income? Corporate income? Capital gains income?

Secular humanism is just as open to interpretation as any religion. While you and perhaps other humanists you know may look at Guantanamo as horrific, others may very easily argue that Guantanamo is torturing a few humans to keep millions of humans safe, and is hence a humanistic decision.

My point is, who will decide?
Somebody who doesn't have imaginary friends.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

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#13003
Jun 1, 2012
 
True Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh please, you ramble on about Christianity, period. You don't talk exclusively about Christians in America. You go and on and on about the evil of Christianity, not the evil of American Christians.
There are a multitude of American televangelists that you can discuss and criticise. You can talk about that stupid creationist museum in Kentucky and how it is misleading the public. Talk about abortion and stem cell generation and their hinderance of it. Name the churches and the church groups you have encountered. You don't do that. You just ramble on about "Christianity", and claim to be a great authority on the matter. You assert that I don't know them, only you know them, and I have yet to learn.
I do not tell you how wonderful Christianity is. I tell you that it is not as bad as you assert it to be, or more accurately they are no different to any other group of people.
Let's generalize this even more then, shall we. There is an inherent flaw in having religion present at all, actually. Though I do not prescribe to being against all religion it's a valid argument that cannot be ignored or denied.

With religion someone stating "god told me that I should do this" and all religious people will simply consider them to be perfectly sane and "normal" because they cannot say otherwise without facing the fact that their own religious belief is false since almost all religions state that their god "speaks" to them. This means that no matter what they claim, the chances of a religious person, especially one of the same religion, seeing anything wrong with the statement, even when what they should do is immoral, is slim to none because it would require admitting what they perceive as impossible.

When everyone around has no religion and someone states "god told me to do this" we immediately wonder of the sanity of the person making this claim. Anything that is inherently detrimental we immediately assume that the person is delusional and should be watched closely or treated for their mental instability. There is no threat in admitting that the person is delusion as we would have no beliefs that doing so would betray.

There is a "save" for the religious people, that is to admit that they are unsure themselves and that they cannot account for such things as "god speaking" to them. However this is likely to not happen in areas of high zealotry and even moderate organized religious people tend not to question the claims of a god speaking to their fellows. Typically the most done is a wide berth approach to the ones making the claims unless they are preachers, in which case such claims are not questioned at all and are accepted without justification.

This is why evidence is so important to an atheist, without the justifications of belief, we can see that any claim requires evidence to support it's validity enough as to justify believing it.

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

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#13004
Jun 1, 2012
 
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
So as long as their god is the same one that speaks to you, they're sane?
But if their god, who speaks to them, is not the same as yours, they're not sane?
Nope. I'd check to see if their god is an actual speaking person, or anything that I can have a conversation with. If not, I'd assume the person is hallucinating.

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

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#13005
Jun 1, 2012
 
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's generalize this even more then, shall we. There is an inherent flaw in having religion present at all, actually. Though I do not prescribe to being against all religion it's a valid argument that cannot be ignored or denied.
With religion someone stating "god told me that I should do this" and all religious people will simply consider them to be perfectly sane and "normal" because they cannot say otherwise without facing the fact that their own religious belief is false since almost all religions state that their god "speaks" to them. This means that no matter what they claim, the chances of a religious person, especially one of the same religion, seeing anything wrong with the statement, even when what they should do is immoral, is slim to none because it would require admitting what they perceive as impossible.
When everyone around has no religion and someone states "god told me to do this" we immediately wonder of the sanity of the person making this claim. Anything that is inherently detrimental we immediately assume that the person is delusional and should be watched closely or treated for their mental instability. There is no threat in admitting that the person is delusion as we would have no beliefs that doing so would betray.
There is a "save" for the religious people, that is to admit that they are unsure themselves and that they cannot account for such things as "god speaking" to them. However this is likely to not happen in areas of high zealotry and even moderate organized religious people tend not to question the claims of a god speaking to their fellows. Typically the most done is a wide berth approach to the ones making the claims unless they are preachers, in which case such claims are not questioned at all and are accepted without justification.
This is why evidence is so important to an atheist, without the justifications of belief, we can see that any claim requires evidence to support it's validity enough as to justify believing it.
Well with nearly all people I know, if someone tells them that God is speaking to them and telling them what to do, they usually assume it is some hallucination of psychotic condition. Perhaps scitzophrenia or multiple personality disorder. From the theists I know, there are very few that would fall for the claims of someone that God is talking to him and telling him to do whatever absurd actions.

And you overestimate the importance of evidence to an atheist. Some atheists are rational and require evidence. Others are emotional and simply believe whatever they originally wanted to believe.

You have perhaps read lots of claims and information about the universe. For how many claims did you really look at the technique of experimentation, the mathematical models, validity of results and competing results? Most people don't have the time and end up just accepting the claim because it was made by some phd at some research institution. Whether the claim is valid or not isn't the point. The point is, you would accept it with little or no question.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

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#13006
Jun 1, 2012
 
True Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Well with nearly all people I know, if someone tells them that God is speaking to them and telling them what to do, they usually assume it is some hallucination of psychotic condition. Perhaps scitzophrenia or multiple personality disorder. From the theists I know, there are very few that would fall for the claims of someone that God is talking to him and telling him to do whatever absurd actions.
And you overestimate the importance of evidence to an atheist. Some atheists are rational and require evidence. Others are emotional and simply believe whatever they originally wanted to believe.
You have perhaps read lots of claims and information about the universe. For how many claims did you really look at the technique of experimentation, the mathematical models, validity of results and competing results? Most people don't have the time and end up just accepting the claim because it was made by some phd at some research institution. Whether the claim is valid or not isn't the point. The point is, you would accept it with little or no question.
But they don't do that when a preacher claims to be "told by god." There is always an exception. The scriptures themselves are the biggest one, you accept, blindly, that it was "inspired" by your god without ever considering it was written by people who do exactly that "god told me this." This is gullibility in it's purest form. That is why I state that religion itself has this exception which is completely irrational and unjustifiable, you are believing that "god told me to kill" when you conclude that the bible is the "word of god."

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#13007
Jun 1, 2012
 

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Nontheist wrote:
<quoted text>
So far, I think this poster is the most repetitive any I've seen in the forum. It reminds me of ...
Melt down continues?

You see what you want to see, darling.

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#13008
Jun 1, 2012
 

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KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah, so you ignored all the posts mocking you.
Pearls before swine, KrustyOdor.

You aren't in the position to mock anyone.

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#13009
Jun 1, 2012
 

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ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Now that is funny – ok we’ll take him just on the off chance that the next monarch will reinstate this ancient and worth custom
You can count on the UK always having another monarch, another head of the state religion.

Perhaps five years before Liz drowns in a bowl of porridge, there will always be another one to follow.

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