Amish bid to close case is denied | The Columbus Dispatch

Amish are the biggest hypocrites of any religious organization because they

> want nothing to do with our society, but invest their money.
> oppose motor vehicles, yet they ride in them.
> don't have electricity in their homes, but use electric power tools.
> refuse to pay taxes, yet use our roads.

Doesn't anyone else see this hypocrisy?

"There are as many shady amish and good ones, just like the rest our society. What I dislike is how they can hide behind religion, and everyone thinks their great. Their no more honest than anyone else. The Amish use the church as a huge tax shelter. Yea! I have known several myself. I'll warn you though, they tend to take advantage of kindness more so than most."

If you really expect anyone to believe your expert opinion if would behoove you to know the difference between they're, their and there for starters.

They do not hide behind their religion but they do observe its ordnung which requires that they separate themselves from things of the world.

I would beg to differ with you that those Amish who observe the aforementioned ordnung fully are in fact quite a lot more honest than the rest of us as honest is a part of the ordnung.

Amish do not use the church as a tax shelter. In fact old order Amish do not even have a church as it relates to buildings and assets. The only assets are the benches and tables they move from one family's home to another every 2 weeks when they have preaching service. There are no church buildings, there are no church grounds and there is no secretary or treasurer. There is usually a deacon, a bishop and 2 ministers per district. None of these are paid positions. Indeed one of the most dreaded things by a wife is to have her husband appointed to one of these positions because he will then have to take on so much additional responsibility. Appointment by the way is done by the drawing of lots.

The Amish pay taxes on land, sales tax on what they buy, and even income taxes. They do not pay into Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid because their religion forbids them to take part in it. When a member needs medical care s/he pays for it out of pocket; in the event it is more than s/he can afford then the whole Amish community chips in. They do not accept any public funds whatsoever. You are obviously misinformed; perhaps your Amish friends were speaking to you in German and you need to brush up. No, they do not speak Dutch; Deutsch is an Americanization of the original German as it was spoken 300 years ago.

Finally, where did you get the notion that the Amish take advantage of kindness more than most? If anything just the opposite is true. I'd rather be stranded near an Amish family's home than that of most of the respondees to this story. Most will offer you a free meal, a can of gas, and a buggy ride to the next town and obviously the latter would take a large chunk out of their busy day's schedule seeing as how most buggies only make 6 - 8 miles per hour.

Finally, I can assure you that whatever punishment any court might dish out it will not come near the social retribution and stigma this man and his family must face from the Amish community. There was a time when most of the rest of the country was like that. Some days I wish for its return. Then we would not have judges and lawyers looking forward to cash in on 50% of the takings.

Gordon Shumway wrote:

It's interesting to read that a BANKRUPTCY judge is interpreting the First Amendment as to how he sees fit. It would seem to me that his area of expertise lies in Federal Bankruptcy laws, not Constitutional law.
Although I see what he is saying, I find it intriguing that he's citing this as the reason to dismiss the petitioner's request to dismiss the bankruptcy.
The Amish community has always been know to "take care of their own". If they're willing to cover a $15 million dollar deficit (reported liabilities $33 million, assets $18 million) and it be out of the hands of the courts, who are we to say no?

1.) All laws within the United States are subject to and limited by the United States Constitution. Bankruptcy law is governed by the US Constitution. Your point is a non-starter. Any judge on a federal bench is well qualified on this question, its kind of a requirement for the job you know.

A Bankruptcy Court is a division of a District or Appellate Court. That District or Appellate Court has full purview of any federal law or constitutional provision, including its bankruptcy department. Area of expertise really isn't there point here, the constitution stipulates that the court's have jurisdiction in this matter, and that allowing the Amish to adjudicate the matter would be substituting the authority of the court for the authority of the church. If that isn't unconstitutional, I don't know what is. Run a google search on the topic at the very least before you shoot your mouth off.

2.) So going by the logic in your third paragraph, are we to allow the Catholic Church to adjudicate all cases involving the rape of children by its priests since the Church engages in so many children's charities? What the Amish want is a get out of jail free card for this guy, probably because they don't want the Feds looking too hard at their business. What a tragedy it would be if the IRS decided that their many extra-ecclesial activities shouldn't be tax exempt.

theJudge wrote:

"There are as many shady amish and good ones, just like the rest our society. What I dislike is how they can hide behind religion, and everyone thinks their great. Their no more honest than anyone else. The Amish use the church as a huge tax shelter. Yea! I have known several myself. I'll warn you though, they tend to take advantage of kindness more so than most."
If you really expect anyone to believe your expert opinion if would behoove you to know the difference between they're, their and there for starters.
They do not hide behind their religion but they do observe its ordnung which requires that they separate themselves from things of the world.
I would beg to differ with you that those Amish who observe the aforementioned ordnung fully are in fact quite a lot more honest than the rest of us as honest is a part of the ordnung.
Amish do not use the church as a tax shelter. In fact old order Amish do not even have a church as it relates to buildings and assets. The only assets are the benches and tables they move from one family's home to another every 2 weeks when they have preaching service. There are no church buildings, there are no church grounds and there is no secretary or treasurer. There is usually a deacon, a bishop and 2 ministers per district. None of these are paid positions. Indeed one of the most dreaded things by a wife is to have her husband appointed to one of these positions because he will then have to take on so much additional responsibility. Appointment by the way is done by the drawing of lots.
The Amish pay taxes on land, sales tax on what they buy, and even income taxes. They do not pay into Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid because their religion forbids them to take part in it. When a member needs medical care s/he pays for it out of pocket; in the event it is more than s/he can afford then the whole Amish community chips in. They do not accept any public funds whatsoever. You are obviously misinformed; perhaps your Amish friends were speaking to you in German and you need to brush up. No, they do not speak Dutch; Deutsch is an Americanization of the original German as it was spoken 300 years ago.
Finally, where did you get the notion that the Amish take advantage of kindness more than most? If anything just the opposite is true. I'd rather be stranded near an Amish family's home than that of most of the respondees to this story. Most will offer you a free meal, a can of gas, and a buggy ride to the next town and obviously the latter would take a large chunk out of their busy day's schedule seeing as how most buggies only make 6 - 8 miles per hour.
Finally, I can assure you that whatever punishment any court might dish out it will not come near the social retribution and stigma this man and his family must face from the Amish community. There was a time when most of the rest of the country was like that. Some days I wish for its return. Then we would not have judges and lawyers looking forward to cash in on 50% of the takings.

You must be a paid lobbyist for the Amish!
They are quite willing to take advantage of pubic services ie transportation, public facilities without contributing a dime to their cost. fact
They will accept and quite willingly ask for anything they can get for free at times. fact
I have been involved in business with them in the past and have known them to have phones, faxes and paid chauffeurs at their disposal. That gets them by the no worldly items on a technicality. When WC Fields, a professed atheist, was dying a friend found him reading the Bible. When asked why, WC replied "Looking for loopholes my boy"!

I do believe Amish have a different belief system and they believe in it. I also believe that many are just raised and used to the way of life and use it to every advantage they can.

I think it interesting that one is caught in a "Ponzi" scheme and even more interesting the astronomical amounts of money involved.

Last time I checked bankruptcy was debtor protection. If he doesn't want the protection of bankruptcy it shouldn't be forced upon him. Let the Amish folk deal with him as they see fit and the non Amish can have at him in court without the protection, it might actually be to their benefit. The way I see it the judge in his decision has sided against those who don't share the Amish belief in effect insuring the Amish get an equal share to his assets which would clearly violate the Establishment Clause.

Seems simple to me ,They are american citizens ,they abide by the laws the rest of us do ,Bankruptcy for a ponzi scheme means jail time
for all the rest of us ,why not him ? Make you a bet charges are never brought,,

tea partiers go home wrote:

<quoted text>
1.) All laws within the United States are subject to and limited by the United States Constitution. Bankruptcy law is governed by the US Constitution. Your point is a non-starter. Any judge on a federal bench is well qualified on this question, its kind of a requirement for the job you know.
A Bankruptcy Court is a division of a District or Appellate Court. That District or Appellate Court has full purview of any federal law or constitutional provision, including its bankruptcy department. Area of expertise really isn't there point here, the constitution stipulates that the court's have jurisdiction in this matter, and that allowing the Amish to adjudicate the matter would be substituting the authority of the court for the authority of the church. If that isn't unconstitutional, I don't know what is. Run a google search on the topic at the very least before you shoot your mouth off.
2.) So going by the logic in your third paragraph, are we to allow the Catholic Church to adjudicate all cases involving the rape of children by its priests since the Church engages in so many children's charities? What the Amish want is a get out of jail free card for this guy, probably because they don't want the Feds looking too hard at their business. What a tragedy it would be if the IRS decided that their many extra-ecclesial activities shouldn't be tax exempt.

Thank you for your informed and "kind" response to someone who didn't know the finer details of the subject matter.

I've also noted that none of the posts mentioned that this guy settled with the SEC. It's too bad the Dispatch did not post a link for the settlement document. This is inexcusable for today's electronic journalism.

I'm not amish, and had money invested in this company. I'm not impressed the judge denied it because I will see way less if any of my money after the bankruptcy is done. All these lawyers will get Millions of are 'hard worked for' dollars before we see any!!! Welcome to a country that is controlled by greed not law!!!!

Whynot wrote:

I'm not amish, and had money invested in this company. I'm not impressed the judge denied it because I will see way less if any of my money after the bankruptcy is done. All these lawyers will get Millions of are 'hard worked for' dollars before we see any!!! Welcome to a country that is controlled by greed not law!!!!

I think the very fact that the court didn't let this swindler get away proves that we are a country of laws. Ceding authority to the Amish in this case would have been doing exactly what you accuse the court of doing.

By the way, lawyers went to law school and earned an education, and they get paid accordingly. What stopped you?

tea partiers go home wrote:

<quoted text>
I think the very fact that the court didn't let this swindler get away proves that we are a country of laws. Ceding authority to the Amish in this case would have been doing exactly what you accuse the court of doing.
By the way, lawyers went to law school and earned an education, and they get paid accordingly. What stopped you?

I appreciate your opnion!!! God Bless you