Commuter-rail panel does double-take on Lakeland's impact

Dee Dee wrote:

This isn't only about 4 additional trains through Lakeland. It's about:
1. The possibility of 40 trains a day through Lakeland and Plant City ( which Glorioso should be concerned about instead of turning a blind eye)!

No. The increased train traffic projections are based on CSX forecasted traffic for 25 years. Most of these trains are coming anyway, regardless of what happens in Orlando. Would you like some additional overpasses for them? Then you shuld be behind this project.

Dee Dee wrote:

2. Statewide commuter rail. Once the S-line is used as the frieght super highway, there will never be a chance for Tampa to have commuter rail to any city except Tampa.

Also a fallacy. If this deal doesn't go through, the federal money will go elsewhere in the US (and not in Florida). It will be a very long time before the feds give us anything else to even dream with. If this deal goes through, and the rail proves successful, there will be a GREATER chance of providing a corridor between Tampa, Lakeland, and Orlando.

Dee Dee wrote:

3. This deal being done in secrecy, by Jeb Bush and not out in the open.

Really? Then why all the public meetings? Why all the public involvement and media coverage? and Jeb Bush isn't even involved. Where is your proof?

Dee Dee wrote:

4. Several Orlando area officials not wanting this project and saying privately they know it is a bad bill, but afraid to step out of the shadows and do anything about it to protect their taxpayers who rely on them because of threats!!!
It's time we move on. Give up Buddy! Look to Amtrak, it's headed your way.

Which Orlando area leaders are against this (besides Harold Rosen)? Every government entity is in full support of this project. What threats? Please be more specific and back your wild accusations with some facts. And as for AMTRAK, that entity is bleeding money and has to be supported by the feds. They have no money, authority, or desire to run commuter rail in ANY city, let alone one which they only are allowed to run TWO trains a day through.

Dockery's supporters need more education about train traffic projections. CSX can increase their train traffic ONLY if they have the rail customers who support it. Orlando has 24 trains/day now, whereas Lakeland has 16 trains/day. Orlando will still have 20 trains/day running through it, not including commuter rail. Lakeland traffic forecast is only a projection, not a stone cold fact. And as for CSX putting the traffic increase in writing, they WON'T ever do that because that would limit their ability to service their customers. Stopping this project will only stop ALL of Florida.

Dee Dee wrote:

This isn't only about 4 additional trains through Lakeland. It's about:
1. The possibility of 40 trains a day through Lakeland and Plant City ( which Glorioso should be concerned about instead of turning a blind eye)
2. Statewide commuter rail. Once the S-line is used as the frieght super highway, there will never be a chance for Tampa to have commuter rail to any city except Tampa.
3. This deal being done in secrecy, by Jeb Bush and not out in the open
4. Several Orlando area officials not wanting this project and saying privately they know it is a bad bill, but afraid to step out of the shadows and do anything about it to protect their taxpayers who rely on them because of threats!!!
It's time we move on. Give up Buddy! Look to Amtrak, it's headed your way!

DeeDee,

What you wanted is about to be heavily discussed. Tampa rail will be a part of it from what I hear. Every Rail in the state is on the board now.

Now is the time to get in your community and help shape it, to make the most sense.

I spoke with a spokesman at Amtrak this week. He felt it would help them because of more people taking the train from South Florida to Orlando & Tampa, and other parts back & forth. Basically transportation within metro areas was not a move that made since to them because of what they had to charge. They said they had looked at that though other cities and did not think it would work.

Orlando should not be surprised that many objected to the underhanded way this plan was developed and the sweetheart deal for CSX on the back of taxpayers. They would never have let the intermocdal center go to Winter Haven if it was such a great economic deal.

Commuter rail is agreat idea...but not without planning and cooperation from all parites includint Amtrak. The Orlando area has not been able to work this out in the past because of their internal wrangling about who is and who is not included.

It neve has been about what is best for central Florida, that is why the comments from politicians, columnists and business is so amusing now. They are all full of it. Had rail been done properly in the first place, I would be riding the train instead of wrtiting about it.

Thinking like this has put us in the oil problem we have today. We won't let US oil companies expand, build new, can't drill here, no pipe line in my neighbor hood. Same type of thinking for better transportation systems. The US is like the Roman Empire we are destroying our selfs. Keep acting like this and we will be a minor player in the world

Chillyfil wrote:

Rail will be a GOLD MINE for the rental car industry and disney. You will have 4 rental car agencies at every rail stop. C'mon it only takes an hour to drive from Tampa to Disney.. THis rail project is a BUST for taxpayers. SCRAP RAIL AND START FUNDING SCHOOLS...FIX THE ROADS WE ALREADY HAVE. IF you build it pay for it yourself not with taxpayers dollars. Most of the supporters think rail will solve our traffic problems. Supporters of rail should get a life.. If gas is $10 a gallon then the car rental agency will charge you $30 a gallon if you bring their rental car you rented from the train station to go to your destination back with less gas than what was in it to begin with...RAIL IS PORK BARREL POLITICS AT IT'S BEST.....If taxpayer have to pay for it....I HOPE RAIL FAILS

No, rail will not solve traffic problems. But it will provide an alternate mode of transportation that will not be mixed in the flow of traffic. Yes, taxpayers will have to pay for it, but I think it the best use of government to provide systems that benefit the public good. It's certainly better than providing research grants to study rodents or paying out lawsuits to smokers, or other such forms of government waste. The short-sighted only look at the costs of the project. They don't see the additional future development that rail can provide. They don't see the reduction in urban sprawl and higher living standards that these project can bring to their communities. They only see the costs.

Factchecker wrote:

Orlando should not be surprised that many objected to the underhanded way this plan was developed and the sweetheart deal for CSX on the back of taxpayers. They would never have let the intermocdal center go to Winter Haven if it was such a great economic deal.
Commuter rail is agreat idea...but not without planning and cooperation from all parites includint Amtrak. The Orlando area has not been able to work this out in the past because of their internal wrangling about who is and who is not included.
It neve has been about what is best for central Florida, that is why the comments from politicians, columnists and business is so amusing now. They are all full of it. Had rail been done properly in the first place, I would be riding the train instead of wrtiting about it.

This is NOT a sweetheart deal for CSX. They are SELLING their tracks that they built, improved, and maintained. AND they are going to have to PAY the CFCRC to use the tracks for their future rail use. Not only do they have to adjust their method of soing business, they have to build a WHOLE NEW YARD to switch tracks, because they are SELLING the Taft yard.
If the government wanted to take your house from you, but said "OK we're going to move a bunch of other people into your house with you and let you pay us to live there with these additional people" wouldn't you also demand some sort of compensation?

Chillyfil wrote:

Rail will be a GOLD MINE for the rental car industry and disney. You will have 4 rental car agencies at every rail stop. C'mon it only takes an hour to drive from Tampa to Disney.. THis rail project is a BUST for taxpayers. SCRAP RAIL AND START FUNDING SCHOOLS...FIX THE ROADS WE ALREADY HAVE. IF you build it pay for it yourself not with taxpayers dollars. Most of the supporters think rail will solve our traffic problems. Supporters of rail should get a life.. If gas is $10 a gallon then the car rental agency will charge you $30 a gallon if you bring their rental car you rented from the train station to go to your destination back with less gas than what was in it to begin with...RAIL IS PORK BARREL POLITICS AT IT'S BEST.....If taxpayer have to pay for it....I HOPE RAIL FAILS

It only takes 45 minutes to drive from West Palm Beach to Miami. Yet everyday & month to month, Tri-Rail ridership increases.

Our Tax Dollars, which is both yours & mine, without a doubt needs to go to things that benefit all of us. If a teacher needs to buy a home outside the Orlando Metro area because thats what they can afford, but still needs to be in Orlando to work, than are we not benefiting that teacher by giving them an options to get to work without getting killed on gas cost to do it?

My point being that our future does cost money. Money in many ways. If we invest in schools, which I agree with, because its investment in a community, why is the investment in Rail, which is also our community a waste of both our tax dollars?

Come on Cruddy and Mickey. Your spending money you simply don't have and can never recover. Let it die for now and get over it. What some twits.

The price tag of CFL CR keeps going up and up and up and up. Who will pay for this public works project?

Moving tracks, expanding commuter rail service, "moving rail forward in Florida", etc. etc. etc.

The original cost/benefit of CFL commuter rail is/was outrageous. With that being said, what will all of these newly proposed changes cost? Who will pay for these changes? Please answer that question. I cannot afford to pay more taxes!! Florida cannot afford to build and operate CFL CR.

Floridians - please do the math!! CFL CR is helping to bankrupt our future just so a few politicians can wheel and deal for their friends. This is a disgrace and this behavior from elected officials should be criminal.

While I have not researched the price tag for the proposed changes, I have no doubt that this CFL Rail Commission has just added another $billion$ in capital costs and increased operating costs at least several $millions$ a year. Who is going to pay for this?

Who will pay? End result -> Mostly the residents of Florida will pay and pay and pay. Our cost of living will go up while our quality of life goes down. Sure - some federal tax dollars will be provided, but only a fraction of this cost will come from the feds and as I understand federal policy, if FL accepts the money from the feds and then cannot afford to operate it (which is a very likely), the state must pay the feds back with penalties. So,once this financial disaster starts, there is no easy way to stop the disasater of CFL commuter rail.

Florida taxpayers will be on the hook forever.

Florida taxpayers will be on the hook to pay for the political favors of Congressman John Mica and other local elected officials. This is a game these elected officials are playing and the citizens are their pawns. This is the sad fact.

All the facts show that CFL CR will do nothing to relieve traffic on I-4. Every elected person involved and all of FDOT know this, but they don't care. CFL CR is all about political favors and getting federal tax dollars (our tax dollars). This is government corruption that must be stopped.

CFL CR is not a good investment and it is not good public policy. It is also outrageous that Congressman John Mica would threatening to withhold funding from Florida and other personal threats - don't get Mica mad at you - types of tactics. Mica is showing his true colors here. His loyalty to CSX is much greater than his loyalty to Floridians or Americans. Mica is a disgrace. Mica does not earn the trust or vote of Floridians. I hope Floridians remember that in Nov. I will. I WILL NOT VOTE TO RE-ELECT MICA. His actions are unethical to say the least. I will not support or promote his corrupt behavior.

Floridians must continue to oppose this political project. CFL CR is a political project - not a public service. That is the sad fact.

Floridians must contact Tallahassee, John Mica and the FTA and oppose this waste of tax dollars. Floridians must also take action to stop the abuse of authority by the elected officials and governmental agencies involved.

Here are the links

http://www.myflorida.com/taxonomy/government/

http://www.statelocalgov.net/state-fl.cfm

http://www.fta.dot.gov/about/contact_us.html

http://www.house.gov/mica/

CFL CR as proposed = NO

Transportation Reform = YES

CFL Mass Transit Sytem = YES

Thank you.

CommuterBob wrote:

<quoted text>
No, rail will not solve traffic problems. But it will provide an alternate mode of transportation that will not be mixed in the flow of traffic. Yes, taxpayers will have to pay for it, but I think it the best use of government to provide systems that benefit the public good. It's certainly better than providing research grants to study rodents or paying out lawsuits to smokers, or other such forms of government waste. The short-sighted only look at the costs of the project. They don't see the additional future development that rail can provide. They don't see the reduction in urban sprawl and higher living standards that these project can bring to their communities. They only see the costs.

Everything you said, is just about what happened though history of Rail. The first Railroad Suburbs (Boston) 1847-1900. Saw this exact thing happen, all to the benefit of the community, which usually took 10 to 20 years to realize.

I am always telling you guy's Nathan Carruth (Old Colony RR Founder & One of the Fathers of Rail in the US) invested a lot of his early concepts on urban sprawl and transportation. I have direct thought's he wrote (I inherited/My GGG Grandfather) on his theories. Today even though they are from 1837. A lot of these same theories are being talked about again.

Thats not by chance. It's because we are faced with some of the same questions about how to move people & goods outside a 5 mile radius.

CommuterBob wrote:

<quoted text>
No, rail will not solve traffic problems. But it will provide an alternate mode of transportation that will not be mixed in the flow of traffic. Yes, taxpayers will have to pay for it, but I think it the best use of government to provide systems that benefit the public good. It's certainly better than providing research grants to study rodents or paying out lawsuits to smokers, or other such forms of government waste. The short-sighted only look at the costs of the project. They don't see the additional future development that rail can provide. They don't see the reduction in urban sprawl and higher living standards that these project can bring to their communities. They only see the costs.

I hear crazy talk like this and I know the person placing this comment somehow, someway stands to financial benefit from CFL CR. If that is not the case, then they are very very very uninformed (or short-sighted) on the subject matter and/or they watch too many commercials (or Orange TV).

No one in their right mind could believe this nonsense (aka crazy talk). If they believe as CommuterBob does, then they have not been paying attention to the corruption of FL gov. This will not stop sprawl. More crazy talk! It will promote sprawl. It will not improve air quality - it will increase pollution - more crazy talk. Have you been to NYC lately? I have. The exhaust fumes and crazy traffic is more proof that life in the "world class" "big city" is not so great. NYC is a great place, but it stinks - literally. Lots of fresh exhaust fumes to enjoy as I walked three blocks to the office. Just want everyone wants - right??

I will agree with CommuterBob about wasting money on silly grants, but replacing one corrupt program with another is not a solution to anything. And CFL CR is not a solution to transportation in CFL or FL.

CommuterBob, who are you for real? Do you work for Mica or some other elected official? Do you work for CSX or some other development group that would get a gov contract (aka gravy train)?

CommuterBob, will you surrender your car keys and commit to using CFL CR exclusively for all of you local commuting? I didn't think so. None of the pro-rail folks will make such as CRAZY committment. 99% of those supporting CFL CR will financial benefit from it one way or another. They won't be riding it. It is the proverbial gravy train for the few that support it.

BEWARE OF TOO MUCH CRAZY TALK!!

CFL CR IS A LOSER!!

Stop CFL CR Corruption wrote:

The price tag of CFL CR keeps going up and up and up and up. Who will pay for this public works project?
Moving tracks, expanding commuter rail service, "moving rail forward in Florida", etc. etc. etc.
The original cost/benefit of CFL commuter rail is/was outrageous. With that being said, what will all of these newly proposed changes cost? Who will pay for these changes? Please answer that question. I cannot afford to pay more taxes!! Florida cannot afford to build and operate CFL CR.
Floridians - please do the math!! CFL CR is helping to bankrupt our future just so a few politicians can wheel and deal for their friends. This is a disgrace and this behavior from elected officials should be criminal.
While I have not researched the price tag for the proposed changes, I have no doubt that this CFL Rail Commission has just added another $billion$ in capital costs and increased operating costs at least several $millions$ a year. Who is going to pay for this?

Again, please do some research before making outrageous claims! You at least admit to doing none, but instead you still spout these outrageous claims!

How are the politicians making money off of this? How is CSX making money off of this? Who is making money off of this? The government is here to provide those services which are necessary to the people. All of the government entities involved know that this is at best, a break-even operation, but its benfit to the community and increased property tax revenues (from future transit-oriented development) far outweighs the negative cash flow this project could produce.

And as for paying back the federal money, that is only true if we get it (which we won't if we don't pass the liability agreement) and DON'T build the project. I seriously doubt that would happen. And as for paying higher taxes, this project won't casue you to have to pay more in taxes, unless you want to buy property near the stations. The simple accounting of a project of this magnitude cannot be done because the future development can't be realistically projected. The money for this deal has already been approved. The only hold up is the trial lawyers' objection to the same liability protection that is in place for Tri-Rail.

As for backroom dealing and secrecy, the only thing this project has seen in that regard is by those who want to kill it. EVERYTHING about this project has been in the open. You are blind or ignorant if you have missed it. Unless your idea of backroom dealing involves massive press coverage, public meetings, and open forums.

Too Much Crazy Talk wrote:

<quoted text>
I hear crazy talk like this and I know the person placing this comment somehow, someway stands to financial benefit from CFL CR. If that is not the case, then they are very very very uninformed (or short-sighted) on the subject matter and/or they watch too many commercials (or Orange TV).
No one in their right mind could believe this nonsense (aka crazy talk). If they believe as CommuterBob does, then they have not been paying attention to the corruption of FL gov. This will not stop sprawl. More crazy talk! It will promote sprawl. It will not improve air quality - it will increase pollution - more crazy talk. Have you been to NYC lately? I have. The exhaust fumes and crazy traffic is more proof that life in the "world class" "big city" is not so great. NYC is a great place, but it stinks - literally. Lots of fresh exhaust fumes to enjoy as I walked three blocks to the office. Just want everyone wants - right??
I will agree with CommuterBob about wasting money on silly grants, but replacing one corrupt program with another is not a solution to anything. And CFL CR is not a solution to transportation in CFL or FL.
CommuterBob, who are you for real? Do you work for Mica or some other elected official? Do you work for CSX or some other development group that would get a gov contract (aka gravy train)?
CommuterBob, will you surrender your car keys and commit to using CFL CR exclusively for all of you local commuting? I didn't think so. None of the pro-rail folks will make such as CRAZY committment. 99% of those supporting CFL CR will financial benefit from it one way or another. They won't be riding it. It is the proverbial gravy train for the few that support it.
BEWARE OF TOO MUCH CRAZY TALK!!
CFL CR IS A LOSER!!

I am a local private citizen who would absolutley use commuter rail exclusively. The reason NYC is filled with exhaust is FROM ALL OF THE CARS!!!!!! I don't stand to benefit financially form commuter rail, except that I would be USING IT to commute from Kissimmee to downtown Orlando where I work.

I have been to other cities and seen what commuter rail and other mass transit has done for them. If you don't want to live in a big city, move out. The facts are that Orlando will continue to grow in population for decades to come. Wouldn't you rather see some of that development go up instead of out? It will improve air quality (even 10,000 less cars on the road per day will help, but I think it will be closer to 30,000 in 10 years). I don't think anyone in their right mind COULDN'T believe the multiple studies done about the improved quality of life, unless they are just blindly against ANY sort of capital improvement project. This project is a winner, but your bitter allegiances to anti-government spending groups must be clouding your vision.

Sean T Wright wrote:

To Tawny Olore, FDOT
I wanted to post to you that South Florida has an issue coming on Tri-Rail. The FDOT needs to keep behind Tri-Rail as it is a clear flagship of Commuter Rail in Florida.
I also wanted to post one more thing to all blogger's,
The money that has been spent now is an investment. One we should not be turning our backs on now. Does it make sense, ever, to turn your back on an investment? Would you do that in your personal life?
My feeling is this is the line of thought, why would the citizens of Florida turn their back on an investment for all Florida Communities.

It is time to stop wasting OUR tax dollars on this loser. It was a loser to begin with and wasting more tax dollars on it does not change that fact.

Reminders

IT IS OUR TAX DOLLARS!!

IT IS OUR COMMUNITY/CITY/COUNTY/STATE/CO UNTRY!!

IT IS OUR GOVERNMENT!!

Why didn't the Government take the existing rails by eminent domain? They have no problem taking taxpayer's homes for this project, not only for the stations, but for new roads leading to them.

Chillyfil wrote:

Rail will be a GOLD MINE for the rental car industry and disney. You will have 4 rental car agencies at every rail stop. C'mon it only takes an hour to drive from Tampa to Disney.. THis rail project is a BUST for taxpayers. SCRAP RAIL AND START FUNDING SCHOOLS...FIX THE ROADS WE ALREADY HAVE. IF you build it pay for it yourself not with taxpayers dollars. Most of the supporters think rail will solve our traffic problems. Supporters of rail should get a life.. If gas is $10 a gallon then the car rental agency will charge you $30 a gallon if you bring their rental car you rented from the train station to go to your destination back with less gas than what was in it to begin with...RAIL IS PORK BARREL POLITICS AT IT'S BEST.....If taxpayer have to pay for it....I HOPE RAIL FAILS

This is just the kind of short sided thought process that keeps mass transit from working in the US.

The state government cannot take railroads through eminent domain because they are protected by the federal government. Besides, CSX still needs to use them. CSX is being a good corporate citizen by offering to sell the rails and then paying a lease to use them in the future. CSX could have said no way from the beginning.

Think of it as if you had owned a piece of property and built your own house on it. Over the years, you have maintained and improved that house to fit your needs. Now here comes the government saying "we'd like to move a few more families into your house because you've got room." But you still need to live in that house. You want to do good by the community, so you say, "ok, you can move these families into my house, but I want to still live in my house because I need to." So your option is to sell the house to the government and sign a lease to live in your own house? I don't think you would do that if you didn't have to. Especially considreing all of the money and time you have spent building, maintaining, and improving that house.

And which would you rather have? The government buying an existing rail corridor with few additional properties (mostly vacant) taken. Or how about taking a 100-200 foot wide swath of existing homes, businesses, and potentially environmentally sensitive land? Which do you think is cheaper?

Can someone explain the $300 million from h Federal Government?
As I understand, the federal gov. has not approved this as a New Start, ut they did relax the requirements so it doesn't have to rank as high for economic feasiblity. Those dollars are NOT as yet approved.
Even IF it is approved as a New Start, only $200,000,00 will come from the federal gov.$100,000,000 is to be state funded and $100,000,000 will be locally funded.
Is that included among the current 400-600 million dollars recently discussed in Tallahassee, or is that additional dollars????
I think Amtrak is the answer for commuter rail - Tampa to Deland.
But I'd also like to see us start planning for high speed rail from coast to coast through all of Central Florida.

Has anyone looked into the studies from 2000 on commuter rail?
It was supposed to connect Orlando and Tampa for the Olympics.
Apparently studies were done. We ought to utilize those as we move forward.
And to those who think we can expand on the the Orlando CR project:
How do we go west out of Poinciana?
How do we go over or under the S line?
Do you really care to unite all of Central Florida, or are you only looking Orlando your own interest?

Chillyfil wrote:

Rail will be a GOLD MINE for the rental car industry and disney. You will have 4 rental car agencies at every rail stop. C'mon it only takes an hour to drive from Tampa to Disney.. THis rail project is a BUST for taxpayers. SCRAP RAIL AND START FUNDING SCHOOLS...FIX THE ROADS WE ALREADY HAVE. IF you build it pay for it yourself not with taxpayers dollars. Most of the supporters think rail will solve our traffic problems. Supporters of rail should get a life.. If gas is $10 a gallon then the car rental agency will charge you $30 a gallon if you bring their rental car you rented from the train station to go to your destination back with less gas than what was in it to begin with...RAIL IS PORK BARREL POLITICS AT IT'S BEST.....If taxpayer have to pay for it....I HOPE RAIL FAILS

Building more roads won't alleviate any traffic issues and would also have to be called pork.