Poor air quality found in western Wisconsin bars, eateries due ...

If you do not like an establishments air quality, stay the hell out of there.

Why does the Government need to legislate a smoking ban? Plain and simple, if you don't like it, do not work there, do not frequent the place. Simple!

We have a local bar/restaurant that is non-smoking.....hmmm, they are on the brink of closing. Imagine that.

OhComeOn wrote:

If you do not like an establishments air quality, stay the hell out of there.
Why does the Government need to legislate a smoking ban? Plain and simple, if you don't like it, do not work there, do not frequent the place. Simple!
We have a local bar/restaurant that is non-smoking.....hmmm, they are on the brink of closing. Imagine that.

LOL that is nothing new, It was tried by an anti-smoking activist in Missouri.
http://banthebanwisconsin.wordpress.com/2008/...

Free_America wrote:

<quoted text>So Andy, tell me how many bars are left at the Mega-Mall?

Not many at all...Packer fans stop crossing the border because of our smoking ban.

Andy wrote:

<quoted text>
Not many at all...Packer fans stop crossing the border because of our smoking ban.

I know I was working in Pine City last fall when they went into effect. Went and visited my sister in Mpls while I was there. Took the bus downtown, took the train to the Mega Mall just to say I rode the train. It wasn't there when I lived there. I couldn't believe how many of my old haunts were gone. Most of them I started going to while I was in college when I was in college, like the viking and the Poodle Club, hell even the Big Ten bar on campus is gone. Sad, but the ban was good for business wasn't it? ;~(

Well, Wel, Wel!!! So people are finally figuring out that those with addictive personalities both drink and smoke!!! WOW!! And they are telling us this comes as a toatl surprise!! I myself and my wife cannot stand any amount of tobacco smoke, so guess what?? We do not patronize places that allow smokingour allergy, our solution, our choice, our decision. I agree with all the posters, Big Brother Government has to step out. As for the workers in these places (Bars not restaurants), most or all of them have the same vices as the patrons or they wouldn't be there. So as the saying goes, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire". By the way I also do not think that a smoker has the right to pollute my lungs any more than anyone would have the right to defecate on my livingroom floor.

Matter of Fact wrote:

Well, Wel, Wel!!! So people are finally figuring out that those with addictive personalities both drink and smoke!!! WOW!! And they are telling us this comes as a toatl surprise!! I myself and my wife cannot stand any amount of tobacco smoke, so guess what?? We do not patronize places that allow smokingour allergy, our solution, our choice, our decision. I agree with all the posters, Big Brother Government has to step out. As for the workers in these places (Bars not restaurants), most or all of them have the same vices as the patrons or they wouldn't be there. So as the saying goes, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire". By the way I also do not think that a smoker has the right to pollute my lungs any more than anyone would have the right to defecate on my livingroom floor.

Well well well yet another non-smoker trying to stigmatize smokers tying to use the addict label ... big surprise ... at least this one has the sense to know that it isn't the governments place to dictate what legal products are used on private property! Trust me no one wants to smoke in your house ... as far as defecating on the floor, it's your house do as you please.

Free_America wrote:

<quoted text>Well well well yet another non-smoker trying to stigmatize smokers tying to use the addict label ... big surprise ... at least this one has the sense to know that it isn't the governments place to dictate what legal products are used on private property! Trust me no one wants to smoke in your house ... as far as defecating on the floor, it's your house do as you please.

Matter of fact Matter of Fact aint house broken...lol!

So, finally had a chance to read it.
Right off the bat as others have said, they are comparing peak values to ambient 24 hour standards not 8 hour and DEFINATELY not short term workplace exposure standards.
Then “The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) reports that in calendar years 2005 and
2006, there was one single day in which the outdoor air quality level was over 34µg/M3 (micrograms
per cubic meter) and may be harmful to individuals with “sensitive conditions.”
That may be true for round there, but it certainly doesn’t hold for all of WI.
2006
http://iaspub.epa.gov/airsdata/ADAQS.monvals...
2007
http://iaspub.epa.gov/airsdata/ADAQS.monvals...
In some places alot of days it’s above 34µg/M3
Now try where i live
http://iaspub.epa.gov/airsdata/ADAQS.monvals...
Now try Cali
http://iaspub.epa.gov/airsdata/ADAQS.monvals...
Oi.

Off the top of my head and a WORKPLACE 8hr ave. of 100µg/M3 is a pretty stringent standard. Winter averages can be pretty bad elsewhere.
Try Greece.
http://www.nature.com/jes/journal/v11/n3/full...

Right at the bottom of page 1,“There is no safe level....” and then at the very end ..“ Previous studies have indicated even short term exposure of 20 minutes can cause sudden life threatening cardiac events.”
No, no bias ...‘rolleyes’.
“It is not possible for patrons and employees to determine the level of environmental tobacco smoke in any specific establishment.”
OK while PM2.5 is not visible, alot of other SHS components ARE ... hello.
“However, these systems do not reduce pollutants to safe levels and are used primarily to remove offensive odors and visible particles.”
Sorry ventilation does and so does HEPA.
“Eating and drinking establishments may contain very high levels of dangerous pollutants for long periods after the last cigarette has been extinguished.”
Without counter measures ... sure.
“Children, who are most susceptible to smoke-related illness, cannot choose to avoid smoke-filled environments.”
But their parents can, and what are children doing in a BAR at past 9pm anyways.

BS about SG06, then ‘argumentum ad populum’ because Mosco ....er, Madison did it.

58 places, including restaurants, seems like an awfully small sample. Picking and choosing could be easy. NO mention of countermeasures (could have easily avoided places that had them). Weekends to maximize patronage and or smokers.
“The number of people inside the venue, the number of patrons and the number of cigarettes burning were recorded every 15 minutes during sampling.”
OK where is the raw data?
“The monitor was located at different locations within the main areas of each establishment to get a sample of readings.” Uh huh again, data please.
“This is to assure that the air quality measured inside is not polluted air that has infiltrated from the outside. The measures of the ambient or outside air indicated good quality. On average, the air quality level indicated less than10 micrograms per cubic meter.”
Yes Western WI has some clean air. We discussed that.
“(Note on confidentiality of data: The establishments monitored for air quality are not identified by name, only by general area and type. We do not identify the establishments because the study organizers do not want to give the impression that the monitored eating and drinking establishments have more or less polluted air than any other establishment in the eight-county area. We also sought to maintain the confidentiality of the business. Any establishment that permits smoking has residue of secondhand smoke which presents a health risk to people.)”
NICE, so none of this can be verified OR checked for some kind of sampling BIAS.
Figure 8 date text vs graph doesn’t match.

Oh and there’s one more thing, even IF some of these places had ventilation, how much can you run it if it’s COLD outside!!
On Feb 29 and March 14, the temperature was about freezing. On Feb 23 & 28 and March 1 & 8, below that in double digits. On the other 6 days the temperature was only in the single digits, two of them NEGATIVE!!
The average outdoor temp for this whole thing is ‘bout 15°F.

PicassoIII wrote:

Right at the bottom of page 1,“There is no safe level....” and then at the very end ..“ Previous studies have indicated even short term exposure of 20 minutes can cause sudden life threatening cardiac events.”
No, no bias ...‘rolleyes’.
“It is not possible for patrons and employees to determine the level of environmental tobacco smoke in any specific establishment.”
OK while PM2.5 is not visible, alot of other SHS components ARE ... hello.
“However, these systems do not reduce pollutants to safe levels and are used primarily to remove offensive odors and visible particles.”
Sorry ventilation does and so does HEPA.
“Eating and drinking establishments may contain very high levels of dangerous pollutants for long periods after the last cigarette has been extinguished.”
Without counter measures ... sure.
“Children, who are most susceptible to smoke-related illness, cannot choose to avoid smoke-filled environments.”
But their parents can, and what are children doing in a BAR at past 9pm anyways.
BS about SG06, then ‘argumentum ad populum’ because Mosco ....er, Madison did it.
58 places, including restaurants, seems like an awfully small sample. Picking and choosing could be easy. NO mention of countermeasures (could have easily avoided places that had them). Weekends to maximize patronage and or smokers.
“The number of people inside the venue, the number of patrons and the number of cigarettes burning were recorded every 15 minutes during sampling.”
OK where is the raw data?
“The monitor was located at different locations within the main areas of each establishment to get a sample of readings.” Uh huh again, data please.
“This is to assure that the air quality measured inside is not polluted air that has infiltrated from the outside. The measures of the ambient or outside air indicated good quality. On average, the air quality level indicated less than10 micrograms per cubic meter.”
Yes Western WI has some clean air. We discussed that.
“(Note on confidentiality of data: The establishments monitored for air quality are not identified by name, only by general area and type. We do not identify the establishments because the study organizers do not want to give the impression that the monitored eating and drinking establishments have more or less polluted air than any other establishment in the eight-county area. We also sought to maintain the confidentiality of the business. Any establishment that permits smoking has residue of secondhand smoke which presents a health risk to people.)”
NICE, so none of this can be verified OR checked for some kind of sampling BIAS.
Figure 8 date text vs graph doesn’t match.
Oh and there’s one more thing, even IF some of these places had ventilation, how much can you run it if it’s COLD outside!!
On Feb 29 and March 14, the temperature was about freezing. On Feb 23 & 28 and March 1 & 8, below that in double digits. On the other 6 days the temperature was only in the single digits, two of them NEGATIVE!!
The average outdoor temp for this whole thing is ‘bout 15°F.

Yea I know after looking into the EPA/DNR standards I couldn't believe anyone would even try to pull something like this. It is so blatantly obvious that someone with even Jr high science could figure it out. I would like to contact them and see if I can get some for my garden next spring.

On page 24.
“Fourth, individuals have no ability to assess the level of fine particulate matter in
any particular establishment. Except for the presence of odor and visible smoke a
customer is unable to determine the risk to their health.”
And they go hand in hand. If it looks smoky .... it is. Duh.

“The public is unaware that secondhand smoke is much more toxic than smoke inhaled
directly from a cigarette. They do not know that when smoke is aged (smoke more than
30 minutes old) it is 3-4 times more toxic than fresh smoke. The data from this study
indicates that in a number of cases a small number of smokers create enough fine
particulate matter to make air hazardous (210 ug/m3 or greater) in an entire
establishment.”
This is completely at odds with the Benowitz cotinine paper.
http://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/...
Ballpark average nonsmoker blood cotinine 0.2ng/mL, exposed 1.0, smoker..........250!!
“The maximal nicotine intake, corresponding to a saliva cotinine concentration of 31.3ng/ml, is estimated to be 2.5mg/day (the equivalent nicotine intake to actively smoking two and a half cigarettes).”
Back calculate the average 7.95ng/mL ‘exposure’ and you get 0.38 cigs, low end 2.2ng/mL, 0.18.
How does their own science of 0.38 cigarettes per shift.......shift to 8 hours=16 cigarettes.
The paper specifically states that cotinine is a great marker to estimate PM and PNA exposure.
Dose makes the poison anyone?

Oh going back to sample size and possible cherry picking..
http://www.yellowpages.com/Eau-Claire-WI/Tave...
Just for taverns, 400 within a freaking 50mile radius!!
829 for restaurants.*sigh*
Can’t imagine what would happen statewide AND if it was done randomly.

Holy CR@P....
Look at figures 5 (pg 13). What is happening between 8:22 and 8:46pm? It drops 66%,~500µg/M3 in 15min. Site 5 then something similar in site 6.
Then in figure 13 you have a ~325µg drop in 20 minutes. Kinda goes against the automatic additional cumulative toxicity due to aging. Did someone turn on a smoke eater or fan before the tester told them to turn it back off (we’re getting kinda cold...). Did a large group of people filter in/out.
What was going on there?
Double checking the weather there were no ‘hurricanes’ Feb/Mar ... in Wisconsin.
And what were the conditions in some of those places that somehow kept it around 100µg for the entire visit half hour and no ‘few smokers’ caveat?

Good grief...
Figure 1, which is a summary breakdown, what the press releases will tout applies AQI Descriptions to a SINGLE peak reading, not even the half hour average for each visit ... argh!!
Applying that moves 2 down into ‘Good’, 8 into ‘unhealthy’ and a big twelve down from ‘hazard’(+/-1 from the graphs)
It’s not that 72% of the establishments have ‘hazardous’ air but 51%.
Treating it as a workplace standard of 100-200µg are just fine.
Like Helena, was it a 60 or 40% reduction in heart attacks.....

"Treating like a 'workplace' standard of 100-
200µg"

22% are totally safe places to work ....
In industrial situations i think there are standards for short term exposures ~300µg.

I contacted the Candidates running for the open senate seat in my district. Tom Tiffany(R) opposes the ban. Jim Holperin(D) favors the ban. I emailed him and gave him every reason not to pass a ban. http://banthebanwisconsin.wordpress.com/2008/...

His response was a little disturbing. It was more or less everyone else is jumping off the cliff so we should too.

Marshall:

Thanks for the information. I certainly agree the state Tavern League should expand negotiations over the smoking ban to include some sort of favorable economic treatment that might help compensate for their economic loss. Probably not cash payment to all liquor license holders, but maybe a loan program for building modification or expansion? Legalize video poker? I'm open to considering some alternatives.

There's too many other states with smoking bans for business owners to successfully challenge the constitutionality of a ban. It's legal.

That's also mainly the reason Wisconsin is headed toward a smoking ban even on thin medical evidence of the benefits...because other states around us have enacted a ban or are about to do so. That's the main argument now...in addition to some arguable health benefits.

Jim

Hmm, perhaps EVERYTHING should just be banned and get it over with. Sheeeeshhh!

Personally I can't abide perfumes....I simply do not frequent stores that smell of it, such as Hollister, VS ect.(Not that Hollister is the only establishment that I feel reeks, simply the 1st that comes to my mind. Thank heavens for online shopping!)

Having said that, I still fail to understand why people would frequent an establishment with an atmosphere they object to. Don't like it? Don't frequent!

Hey turkey do you think you could have spamed it in a few more places!