Poor air quality found in western Wisconsin bars, eateries due ...

The EPA doesn't regulate internal air, folks, and nor does the WIDNR.

There's a reason why these people are looking to the EPA and DNR...there's no justification by OSHA for a smoking ban because the allowable air particulates in places that allow secondhand smoke are WELL below OSHA standards, and this is according to OSHA themselves.

Haven't you ever wondered why OSHA doesn't force smoking bans upon workplaces, if secondhand smoke is so doggone dangerous? Look it up.

The EPA and DNR have absolutely no jurisdiction over the workplace. The pro-banners had best take up the issue with OSHA instead of looking for a back-door way to scare folks into passing bans by using irrelevant data.

they don't care if it's correct or not... they don't care honey, they just want what they want no matter who they hurt

"Air-matter figures in many restaurants and bars were significantly higher than the baseline used to determine hazardous air quality, according to the study by the University of Wisconsin Comprehensive Cancer Center, the Wisconsin Tobacco Prevention and Control Training and Technical Assistance program, and various tobacco control coalitions and public health departments."

WTF..
Air-matter?
Could they at least use something close to proper scientific terminology. Sheesh
More fear mongering by press release.
Here is the actual study.
http://www.cancer.wisc.edu/uwccc/documents/We...

Will need some time to read it. But yes, bias on the part of these agencies would not be a surprise in the slightest.

Air quality dispersion modeling is performed to assess the impact of an air pollution source on the surrounding environment. The impact is quantified by predicting the concentration of the pollutant at ground level and then comparing that result to a reference level. The most commonly used reference for comparison is the National Ambient Air Quality Standards (NAAQS) developed by the US Environmental Protection Agency to protect human health and welfare. Each standard is defined in terms of pollutant, averaging time, and level where health is protected with an adequate margin of safety (primary standard) or a level necessary to protect public welfare from unknown or unanticipated effects (secondary standard).

Now we get to the background levels in various locations. As you can see a lot of them are what they call unhealthy. The funny thing is the DNR model was designed for sustained long term measurements averaged over a period of time not short term peak measurements. and again this is for outdoor air quality. Since without massive filtering it would be impossible for indoor air quality to exceed that of outdoor. There is a reason outdoor standards are stricter then indoor.

http://dnr.wi.gov/air/PDF/tsp_background_marc...

The air quality of outdoor air breathed by the public is determined by carefully comparing the monitored level of air pollutants with air quality standards established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The National Ambient Air Quality Standards set the limits for seven air pollutants that have documented effects on public health.

The National Ambient Air Quality Standards contain primary and secondary standards for each of these seven air pollutants. If a primary standard is exceeded, health risks exist. If a secondary standard is exceeded, then crops, trees and buildings may be damaged.

Most of the air quality standards are based on a particular time length for averaging, and the average concentration during that time. For a violation to be recorded the average concentration, usually rounded to the same number of significant digits as the standard, must be greater than the standard during the specified averaging period.
http://www.dnr.mo.gov/env/esp/aqm/standard.ht...

bad air quality...it that the cause of all the stupid stories we hear about folk out in wisconsin?

The DNR standards are not only designed for outdoor air quality, they were designed to be measured over a long period of time and averaged out.

Most of the air quality standards are based on a particular time length for averaging, and the average concentration during that time. For a violation to be recorded the average concentration, usually rounded to the same number of significant digits as the standard, must be greater than the standard during the specified averaging period.

Now exactly how does the DNR use these numbers.

2. Method of Comparison for the 24-hour Standard.

* Determine the 98th percentile value by the following method:
1. Arrange from highest value to lowest value all 24-hour measurments for a calendar year.
2. Assign the number one to the lowest value, the number two to the second value and so on untill each of the values is assigned a number, with the largest number (n) being assigned to the highest value .
3. Multiply the largest number(n) times 0.98.
4. The whole number part of the above product, plus one, is the number of the 98th percentile value.
5. Using the value number obtained in step “D”, determine the 98th percentile value by matching the value number to the list in step “B”.

* Average the 98th percentile value with the 98th percentile values of two other consecutive years.

* Round the above three-year average to the nearest one microgram per cubic meter (ug/m)3. Use the convention that if the number 5 is found in the tenths place, the number rounds up.

* If the rounded three-year average of the 98th percentile values is greater than 65 ug/m3, a violation of the standard has occurred.

Now did these activist take the required 24 hour samples over a three year period and apply them in the correct formula. Absolutely not! From the study!

Unlike the testing protocol conducted by the DNR and EPA which collects samples 24 hours per day over a number of days, the monitoring conducted for this study was taken over 30 minutes on a single occasion. For many establishments a longer study, especially over 24 hours would not be relevant to their health and safety concerns.

Would not be relevant? What bullshit! They take an outdoor standard which was intended to be a time averaged outdoor standard changed the rules of the standard and called the thresholds peak threshold and applied them to a 30 minute interval. So in essence they are trying to measure the air temperature using nothing but a ruler!

Not to mention that many parts of Wisconsin already have background particulate pollution that already are in the moderate to unhealthy category.
http://dnr.wi.gov/air/PDF/tsp_background_marc...

Places like Milwaukee were in the moderate to unhealthy 75% of the time in 2005.
http://dnr.wi.gov/air/aq/monitor/pm25trends.h...

If they were honest they would go into a factory or a welding shop take the same measurements so that we would have an honest comparison. Why didn’t they? Well that is obvious, for the same reason they didn’t use the proper indoor measurements which would be the OSHA guidelines, there would be no shock value. Since this is for the health of the worker why didn’t they take these same measurements in the kitchen of a non-smoking establishment. Same reason the kitchen would fail and they would lose the shock value.

Without some serious filtering it would be virtually impossible for the air quality of the inside air to exceed that of the outside air, There is a reason the standards are stricter for outside air quality. The bottom line is if you don’t like a smoky environment, don’t go to an establishment that allows it.
http://banthebanwisconsin.wordpress.com/

Citizen Joe: "bad air quality...it that the cause of all the stupid stories we hear about folk out in wisconsin? "

Actually, Joe, the 'stupidest stories' are ones like this article where our illustrious Wisconsin government and media tries to snow us into believing something that's completely false in order to gain more tyrannical control over the lives of our citizens.

We may be a little goofy over here, but we're at least smart enough to know when our rights are being stripped away and have the temerity to stand up and fight for them.

By the way, go to http://www.banthebanminnesota.com if you're interested in joining the fight against the Minnesota ban. And as 'Free America' posted above, the Wisconsin effort is at http://www.banthebanwisconsin.com .

How did the DNR get involved in this anyway? This is an OSHA non-issue and that's why they stay out of it.

Why not call in OSHA to regulate this? Oh wait, they did years ago,
ASH Nixes OSHA Suit To Prevent Harm to Movement [12/14-6]

Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) has agreed to dismiss its law suit against the Occupational Safety and Health
Administration [OSHA] to avoid serious harm to the nonsmokers' rights movement from an adverse action OSHA
had threatened to take if forced by the law suit to do so.

In its court filing, OSHA had argued that it might not be feasible to ban smoking in restaurants, and that developing
some hypothetical measurement of tobacco smoke pollution might be a better remedy than prohibiting smoking.

However, in its court response, ASH noted that smoking bans in California, Maryland, and many other jurisdictions
clearly prove that smoking bans are feasible, and that there is no evidence that any level of tobacco smoke
however measured would ever meet OSHA's regulatory mandate to prevent worker deaths.

Nevertheless, it became clear that OSHA would use this (and perhaps even stronger) language in a formal OSHA
decision if ASH continued to press its law suit, and that such language could seriously hurt efforts to pass
nonsmokers' rights legislation at the state and local level, and to get relief for nonsmokers in court suits and
administrative proceedings

Another major threat was that, if the agency were forced by ASH's law suit to promulgate a rule regulating smoking
in the workplace, OSHA -- at least under this administration -- would be likely to pass a very weak one. This weak
rule in turn could pre-empt future and possibly even existing nonsmokers' rights law -- a risk no one is willing to
take.

It's the cheese and Old Style aftermath.

I have to laugh where is this 70% majority they keep talking about. From the article.

Miller provided the city clerk with signatures from 3,000 Fond du Lac residents and 3,600 patrons from neighboring communities who are opposed to a smoking ban.

OK that is 6600 against as opposed to.

SAFE members collected more than 2,000 signatures in favor of the ban from people who live and work in Fond du Lac and patronize Fond du Lac businesses. The group is credited with bringing the proposed ordinance to the council.

6600 Oppose 2000 Favor a ban yup that looks like a 70% majority to me!

Oh an I absolutely love this part

Post said he felt Council President Tim Lakin’s PowerPoint presentation at the meeting about the loss of revenue and business by Madison tavern owners was “inappropriate use of his position.”

Lakin said the meeting agenda is “dictated by the president.” He said the presentation wasn’t an attempt to stifle proponents of a ban but to show the effect on business.

“It doesn’t surprise me they cried foul,” Lakin said after the meeting.

In the presentation, the owner of a Madison bowling alley said a smoking ban in his community put him at a “competitive disadvantage.”

The owner said he lost 200 bowlers who moved to other lanes.

He said the average bowler represents $500 to his business.

“I’m down in every aspect of my business,” the owner said.

But wait I thought the ban In Madison was good for business? Please don’t tell me they were lying again!

Police Chief Tony Barthuly said his officers would enforce a smoking ban only if they were headed into a tavern to check for underage drinking or other violations.

“I don’t have the manpower or the time to do that,” he said.

To this I only have one word to say .... Ohio.
http://banthebanwisconsin.wordpress.com/2008/...

Andy wrote:

It's the cheese and Old Style aftermath.

And yet even without Farve the Viqueens can't beat the Packers. Could it be with Freedom comes strength?

Free_America wrote:

<quoted text>And yet even without Farve the Viqueens can't beat the Packers. Could it be with Freedom comes strength?

Nah, they both blow.

Andy wrote:

<quoted text>
Nah, they both blow.

So Andy, tell me how many bars are left at the Mega-Mall?

drunkoncouch wrote:

How did the DNR get involved in this anyway? This is an OSHA non-issue and that's why they stay out of it.

That's a great question. Personally, I think it shows just how far these despots will go to gain power over the people.

Thing is, if they cared so damn much about people's health, you'd think they'd be standing outside of smoking-allowed taverns in Wisconsin with placards of black lungs, begging people not to walk into their certain death. In fact, I think that if these tyrants truly believe that SHS is so harmful, they should be openly and harshly criticized for NOT trying to talk people out of entering smoking establishments. If they believe that people are going to get sick and die from being exposed to SHS, they shouldn't sit around waiting for smoking bans, they should be out trying to "save lives". If I saw someone walking into a burning house, I certainly wouldn't sit there and watch them do it. I'd beg them not to go in.

That alone is proof that these ban proponents could care less about anyone's health.

Joey wrote:

Citizen Joe: "bad air quality...it that the cause of all the stupid stories we hear about folk out in wisconsin? "
Actually, Joe, the 'stupidest stories' are ones like this article where our illustrious Wisconsin government and media tries to snow us into believing something that's completely false in order to gain more tyrannical control over the lives of our citizens.
We may be a little goofy over here, but we're at least smart enough to know when our rights are being stripped away and have the temerity to stand up and fight for them.
By the way, go to http://www.banthebanminnesota.com if you're interested in joining the fight against the Minnesota ban. And as 'Free America' posted above, the Wisconsin effort is at http://www.banthebanwisconsin.com .

is that the crazy air that's making you talk like this?

america me wrote:

<quoted text>
is that the crazy air that's making you talk like this?

What crazy air. It's called the fresh air of FREEDOM!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2098/244375459...

Free_America wrote:

<quoted text>What crazy air. It's called the fresh air of FREEDOM!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2098/244375459...

If this air quality talk is about a smoky small town bar, I'm heading there now to get away from the foul
smell of dirty politics.

In the "day"....the only decent bars to drink in smelled of Urinal Cakes, and stale beer!

Consistent wrote:

In the "day"....the only decent bars to drink in smelled of Urinal Cakes, and stale beer!

And smoke! These places still exist in rural WI. If the anti's have their way these little beer stops on country roads will be the first to close.