Aussie restlessness echoes in U.S.

Bob wrote:

dee:2
Moiz Qidwai:0

A Biblical scholar once said that if you torture a text long enough, you can get it to confess to anything. I think this is what happens with Muslim claims on the Bible.

Questions for MUQ:

1. Have you ever read and studied the Bible, including the New Testament?

2. Have you compared the Bible with the Quran?

3. Are the arguments you make here the result of your own thoughts or are they given to you by others? If this is so, have those people read and studied the Bible?

4. Why do you expect Christians to accept these vague claims?

Many scholars have concluded that the Quran is a fabrication. Since you continually state that the Bible is 'corrupted' and that Jesus was only another prophet, and expect us to take these claims seriously, why don't you, in the same spirit, consider our claims about Islam and the Quran?

You accuse us of ignorance about Islam, but Muslim ignorance about Christianity is deeper.

Until you answer these questions, there is no point in continuing with long posts about the life of Mohammed - we call all read about this subject if we wish.

Dee wrote:

MUQ: It depends upon the definition of 'immoral'. Many of the prophets acted in an immoral fashion, eg King David. Only Jesus, who was the Messiah, lived a life without sin. According to Christian beliefs, a man who marries twelve times, once to a nine year old child, steals and engages in warfare on those who do accept his teachings would not be regarded as a moral man. The Jews of the time also professed disgust at a prophet whose chief concern seemed to be his harem.
..
..sharing one indivisible Divine essence.

We were discussing the Makkan chapter of our prophet’s life. So you concentrate your remarks on that period. Quran calls these “Immoral” actions attributed to various prophets in OT as “Baseless fabrications”. We will come to that issue in our discussions, when we will discuss “Sources of Quran”

Authenticity of Quran:

The authenticity of Quran is unparalleled amongst the world scriptures. It was true that it was written down on whatever material was available, but you are forgetting that it was also committed to memory by prophet and other companions.

The prophet and his companions used to recite long portions of Quran during five daily prayers. They used to recite long portions of it during late night prayers. The Quran was the major source of getting new converts.

By the time prophet died, he had the entire Quran preserved both into written form as well as in the hearts of many of his companions. Within two years of his death, when the YAMAMA battle took place and many of the memorizers of Quran died in it, the First Caliph Abu Bakr, was prompted to preserve the Quran in written form. All the memorizers of Quran did not die in YAMAMA battle. So within two years of prophet’s death the Quran was written down in the form of a book. It was with Abu Bakr, then with Omar, the second caliph and then was in the custody of HAFSA, daughter of Omar and wife of the prophet.

Then within 20 years of prophet’s death, the third Caliph, made six or eight copies from that original and sent one to each of the major province. Two of tese copies still survive till this day. One is in Tashkent Museum and another in Turkey Topkopy Museum. Anyone can verify existing Quran’ with those copies.

Further Quran has an unbroken chain of those who memorize the Quran completely. At no point in Islamic history, there was a period when thousands upon thousands of memorizers of Quran did not exist in the world.

And what is the beauty that you cannot find any other Quran in the world, which is different from those originals.

I know many people feel envy towards this authenticity of Quran and point baseless charges against it. What is more remarkable that they still consider “Word of God” their own scriptures which were neither preserved in written form and neither in memory form during the life time of their prophets.

Quran was preserved to the extreme limit, which is humanly possible. As for doubters, there is no limit of imaginations..

Questions for MUQ:

1. Have you ever read and studied the Bible, including the New Testament?

2. Have you compared the Bible with the Quran?

3. Are the arguments you make here the result of your own thoughts or are they given to you by others? If this is so, have those people read and studied the Bible?

4. Why do you expect Christians to accept these vague claims?

Dee wrote:

Questions for MUQ:
1. Have you ever read and studied the Bible, including the New Testament?
2. Have you compared the Bible with the Quran?
3. Are the arguments you make here the result of your own thoughts or are they given to you by others? If this is so, have those people read and studied the Bible?
4. Why do you expect Christians to accept these vague claims?

Yes Sister, I fully agree with you, that you can drive any message from any scripture if you look for what you want it to say. And we do not have to go far to see it. Same OT books are read by Jews and Christians, and they drive totally different conclusions from it.

We are pre-programmed before we read the scriptures, we see and we find only those things which we were programmed into. To study any scripture with open mind is ne of the hardest thing in the world.

Now coming to your questions:

1. Yes, I have read both OT and NT books. It was not right for me to comment on other’s religion, without reading their scriptures. I read both OT and NT books word by word.

2. In fact there is nothing to compare Bible with Quran as such. Quran is the Word of God and nothing else, Bible contains Word of God mixed with other things.

The monotheistic teachings mentioned in Bible are refined and perfected in Quran. The concepts of Prophethood, life after death, the events of hereafter are mentioned in Quran in much more details than in Bible. The Basic Laws and Commandments of Moses are mostly confirmed in Quran. Most of the rituals are specific to the Jews. A major part of OT books is Jewish history, which is for the information of those who want to study it.

Coming to NT, We have no major conflict with the first three gospels. The forth Gospel is written in allegorical language and should not be interpreted literally. The letters of Paul are filled with his own logic and have no confirmation from Jesus, so they have no real scriptural value.

3. I have read many books comparing Islam and Christianity. Majority of these were from Islamic scholars and some from Ex Christian priests, who became Muslims. That is the beauty of Islam, it will often attract learned men form other faiths, but the reverse is rarely seen.

4. I do nor expect or believe that all Jews and Christians will accept my arguments. My view is that most of them simply do not know about Islam and Quran and their knowledge is based on mostly hearsay. If any of such person get inspiration form my posts to start enquiring the truth about Islam, my job is done. We are commanded to propagate our faith in most logical and reasonable manner to all we encounter.

5. Yes I know many of your scholars say that Quran is a fabrication, in fact this charge is mentioned in Quran itself!!! But Quran has a logical answer to this charge, that if it was possible for one unlettered man to fabricate this book, why others can’t also do it!!! This challenge is repeated in Quran many times and for 1400 years no one has come forward to take it.

6. Quran talks in logical terms, and if you can counter logic with logic it is OK, but your arguments that since Bible was written earlier to Quran, it must be right is not logical. We have to determine what the source of the two books is?. If the source of Quran is from God, then it supersedes all human knowledge, however old or new it may be. In fact that was what I wanted to discuss in my new post..

7. To continue this discussion or to terminate it is your choice. I have seen that you really have no interest in the topic. You will pick just one line from my post and make that as basis for your reply.

8. If you have predetermined that you will stick to your own believes and will not open your mind, then it is really wastage of time and effort for both of us.

Hi Moiz Qidwai, its good to hear your point of veiw put so well. It is also good to hear from someone from your country. I do not agree with what you said, but thats OK with me if its OK with you. I do not belive in any god, and would never hold anyone elses personal belifes against them. Unless they want to cause harm to inocent people. I know a couple of muslim people, they love their familys and are good people, Thats good enough for me.
Peace.
Now brother, see what you can do about the price of oil will ya. Cheers, I owe you a shrimp on the barbie.

MUQ: "In fact there is nothing to compare Bible with Quran as such. Quran is the Word of God and nothing else, Bible contains Word of God mixed with other things."

The Bible is both a narrative covering thousands of years and a book of prophesy. The Quran is of its own time, the lifetime of Mohammed, and does not make prophesies. But both are holy books, it is impossible not to compare them.

MUQ: "The concepts of Prophethood, life after death, the events of hereafter are mentioned in Quran in much more details than in Bible."

But the information does not match, so one of the books must be wrong.

MUQ: "I have read many books comparing Islam and Christianity. Majority of these were from Islamic scholars and some from Ex Christian priests, who became Muslims."

So in fact, you have read only books that support and agree with Islam. That’s the same as if I had read only book by Christian clerics and converts to Christianity. You have read nothing giving the opposite view of Islam or Mohammed, you have read only the opinions of biased people, one side not both sides. Nobody can form a proper opinion unless he/she is familiar with both sides of the question.

MUQ: "The letters of Paul are filled with his own logic and have no confirmation from Jesus, so they have no real scriptural value."

You continue to make this claim without providing the slightest bit of proof. I have asked you several times to explain exactly how Paul was able to change the teachings of Jesus to suit himself, and why nobody at the time noticed these changes, but you prefer not to answer.

MUQ: "This challenge is repeated in Quran many times and for 1400 years no one has come forward to take it."

The fact that nobody has come forward doesn’t prove your case. The challenge is to compose a ‘book like the Quran’– exactly what does that mean?

MUQ: "You will pick just one line from my post and make that as basis for your reply."

You try to discuss the subject chronologically but that is not possible. Since the Bible is both narrative and prophetic, most Biblical verses are meant to be understood in connection with other verses, it is not possible to simply isolate one particular verse and try to attach a meaning to it without taking the whole into consideration.

MUQ: "If you have predetermined that you will stick to your own believes and will not open your mind ..."

Have you ever considered that the claims you make are too weak to be taken seriously? I have read all the evidence you provided with an open mind (because nobody is 100% wrong, every argument has some rational basis) and the corresponding parts of the Bible – I asked people with a better knowledge of Christianity when I didn’t know enough to make a decision. All the Muslim claims seem to be very weak and based on nothing more than wishful thinking.

Muslims say that Paul corrupted the scriptures but they cannot tell us where and when this happened, they cannot explain why Paul was allowed to do such a thing, and why.

Muslims wish to change the meaning of Christianity by claiming that Mohammed was the Comforter, with no better evidence than a play on words –‘if this word is changed to a similar word it will then mean ‘praised one’, which must refer to Mohammed’. That is a chain of wishful thinking, not proof.

Are you serious when you expect people to accept this as solid evidence? When Muslims present some viable evidence for their claims I will listen with an unbiased mind.

Apparently Muslim scholars have been reading the scriptures for 1400 years, and never found anything better than these few verses to use as evidence for their claims.

Instead of accusing others of being closed minded and biased, you should consider the quality of your claims. If your claims are universally rejected, perhaps that's because they do not make sense and are not supported by any solid evidence.

You talk absolute crap. Where you abused my you step pappy who was probably not Canadian, Aussie or American, thats right he was a mutant bear.
No, All this is because He DIDN'T molest you. ROFLMAAO

Anglo trash is a fat tranny.

Anglo trash wrote:

Dee comes from a long line of "alterboys" associated with the Catholic baby sitting priests. She/IT has personal knowledege of the sins of the flesh. Dee also has a vast legal background, mostly spend on the other side of the bars like her racist Anglo convict ancestors who were mostly spwan by incest as proffessed by the BIBLE. Dee also like the story of Incest or Lot and His Daughters. This reminds our resident racist dole bludging tranny "dee" of her own convict family dynamics and Aussie "values" based on the BIBLICAL dictum (not to be confused with rectum) that an Anglo CONVICT family that humps together stays together on the dole..LOL.

Do Do Doodle Doodle Do Do Doo Doo
Do Do Doodle Doodle Do Do Doo Doo

Racist clown.

SUPERIOR AUSSIE wrote:

Hi Moiz Qidwai, its good to hear your point of veiw put so well. It is also good to hear from someone from your country. I do not agree with what you said, but thats OK with me if its OK with you. I do not belive in any god, and would never hold anyone elses personal belifes against them. Unless they want to cause harm to inocent people. I know a couple of muslim people, they love their familys and are good people, Thats good enough for me.
Peace.
Now brother, see what you can do about the price of oil will ya. Cheers, I owe you a shrimp on the barbie.

Thank you brother for your post. Yes we should respect each other’s point of view, while sticking to ours. This is the meaning of tolerance and co-existence.

But it is hypocrisy to say, that all ways are equally good or equally bad, or we should choose whichever we like, we will reach the same goal.

The true path is only one, if you want to take it, it is your choice and if you reject it, it is also your choice. You will be judged based on the choice you make.

We should deliver our message in the most reasonable and logical way and then leave the choice to the other party.

Yes I know majority of Muslims are nice people and have needs like any other people on this earth. But is media and some vested interest, who will make monster out of every Muslim.

About the Oil prices, if I had any control, I would bring it down. The main reason according to me is USA‘s war on Afghanistan and Iraq and its continuous threats to Iran. If YOU could do some thing to solve that problem, may be the oil prices could come down to their normal levels.

Right now in Saudi Arabia we are in grip of uncontrolled inflation on every item except Gasoline prices!!

Dee wrote:

The Bible is both a narrative covering thousands of years and a book of prophesy. The Quran is of its own time, the lifetime of Mohammed, and does not make prophesies. But both are holy books, it is impossible not to compare them.
..
..Instead of accusing others of being closed minded and biased, you should consider the quality of your claims. If your claims are universally rejected, perhaps that's because they do not make sense and are not supported by any solid evidence.

1. As I told you Quran is nothing but the UNADULTERATED Revealed Word of God. Bible on the other hand, has human efforts inserted into it. If you want to compare them, Quran should be taken as Yardstick. The portions of Bible, which are confirmed by Quran, should be accepted, Those, which are rejected by Quran, should be rejected and those where Quran is silent, we should also be silent, and that is exactly what Muslims do with respect to Bible and other world’s scriptures.

2. In a way, you are right, you have studied Christian literature and I have studied Islamic literature. We may discuss issues based on our respective knowledge. As I told you it is impossible for any one to be 100 % unbiased in religious issues.

3. The importance given to Paul in Christianity is really uncalled for. He was not a prophet; he was not a chosen disciple of Jesus. His claim to Apostleship was self-made. So his writings have no force unless they are supported by Quotations from Jesus’ own lips. And that is what is most lacking in his letters.

As to how much he changed the original teachings of Jesus, needs a separate discussion. It will suffice to say, that out of all NT books existing with us, Paul’s letters are the oldest. Other Gospels were written after Paul’s letters and were affected by them. The forth Gospel especially was much influenced by it.

But still we can prove that Paul is the innovator of all pillars that constitute present day Christianity; i.e. Divinity of Christ, Trinity, Original Sin, Vicarious Atonement and Abolition of Moses Laws. All these are innovations of Paul and have no authority from Jesus. For Paul, Jesus’ life starts from his Crucifixion and Resurrection, his earthly life is of no concern to him.

As to your observation, why nobody objected to it, if you know Church History, most of Jesus’ chosen apostles objected to it. Council of Jerusalem was held because of it and after that Council; other chosen Apostle of Jesus just fade away from scene.

Then there was continuous struggle between factions of Christians, Paul’s views were accepted only after 325 Nicea Council as Church Views and State Views and were forced upon people. How many Christian groups were declared as heretics and hypocrites because of opposing Paul’s teachings is recorded in your own Church History.

4. Quran’s challenge is simple, like you have four Authorized Gospels (and seventy or so Unauthorized Gospels), you really cannot distinguish between them because of their styles and contents, so Just bring another book like Quran in Arabic, so people can say that these seem similar. Ask Arab Christians (there are 30 Millions of them) why cant they do it?(Contd)

5. To you Muslim claims look very weak, to us they look very strong. Regarding Counselor, I tried to prove to you, that Holy Spirit does not satisfy many criterion fixed by Jesus himself. But to you, only one thing is what that matters; the prophecy must be fulfilled during the life time of Apostles. Other points mentioned by Jesus are of secondary or of no importance to you.

On the other hand, about other prophecies mentioned in OT books, you have no problem that they were fulfilled after 1000 years or after 500 years. Even prophecies recorded in Gospels where Jesus mentioned that will be fulfilled during the life time of Apostles, are pending for fulfillment after 2000 years or more seems natural to you, but this Counselor must come during the life time of Apostles and you consider that approach logical?

6. Muslims do not want to change the meaning of Christianity; they want you to become real Christians. Follow in the footsteps of Jesus. Live your life like Jesus lived. Only accept Jesus’ words as your guiding principles in life and then your life will come as close to Islam as Jesus’ was!!

One more advice, Take the Gospel of St. Barnabas (forget for a moment that it is Apocrypha) and study it in night hours, before you go to sleep. Just check if Jesus there looks different from what Paul claims.

7. Muslims have the last Testament form God and they have the teachings of Last prophet with them. They have the latest editions of all scriptures, why should they be needing those old books, where the word of God has been translated and modified by human hands, it is illogical.

8. Acceptance by Majority is the least significant criterion for judging any truth. In Jesus’ time, majority of Jews were in favor of Killing him, but they all were wrong. Truth can never be proven by popular votes.

9.. The continuation of this discussion, is in your hands. If it does not broaden your horizon, then it is of no real use to any of us.

MUQ: " As I told you Quran is nothing but the UNADULTERATED Revealed Word of God"

And as I told you, there is no reason why anyone except Muslims should believe that the Quran is the 'revealed word of God'. The fact that nobody has produced a book 'like the Quran' proves nothing. HOW like the Quran? Written in similar language? Describing a vision or a supernatural event?

MUQ: "As to how much he changed the original teachings of Jesus, needs a separate discussion."

In other words, you have no idea.

MUQ: "Muslims do not want to change the meaning of Christianity; they want you to become real Christians."

And how would a Muslim know anything about 'real Christians' or what they should believe? Of course you want to redefine Christianity - if the NT is correct, it proves Islam wrong. This kind of dishonesty is the reason that most non-Muslims distrust Islam.

MUQ: "But still we can prove that Paul is the innovator of all pillars that constitute present day Christianity"

But you cannot prove that he was wrong, that he lied, or that he changed Jesus's teachings. If Muslims could prove this, they would have done so.

MUQ: "But to you, only one thing is what that matters; the prophecy must be fulfilled during the life time of Apostles."

Jesus said so Himself, many times. Are you seriously suggesting that we should disregard the words of Jesus and listen to Muslims instead, because they know so much better? And this isn't the only reason we reject your theory, I gave every reason, you choose to include only one.

MUQ: "but this Counselor must come during the life time of Apostles and you consider that approach logical?"

Jesus Himself told the apostles to go to Jerusalem and wait for the Comforter, who would come to them 'in a few days'. How much clearer can anything be? It's much more 'logical' than the tortured Muslim 'evidence' about how the Greek word should really be another word that fits in with Muslim beliefs.

"Paul, an apostle - sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God, the Father...(Galatians 1:1)

Mohammed was also a 'self-proclaimed prophet'. Why do you believe his vision and not Paul's?

MUQ: "The portions of Bible, which are confirmed by Quran, should be accepted, Those, which are rejected by Quran, should be rejected and those where Quran is silent, we should also be silent, and that is exactly what Muslims do with respect to Bible and other world’s scriptures."

In other words, Muslims should be accepted as the final authority and be able to dictate to others what they should or should not believe? Are you crazy?

If Arabic is the language of God, how do you explain that the very word 'Quran' is not Arabic but Aramaic. Dr. Sobhy as-Salih stated: "Allah chose to His revelation new names different from those used by the Arabs, in general and in detail."

He also said, "When the Arabs before Islam used the word (qara') it meant 'to be pregnant or to have a child'. But the word qara' as 'to recite' is of an Aramaic origin."

1. Yes, you are right, we don’t care if Non Muslims don’t believe it. We have proofs with us:

A. Quran is preserved exactly as it was 1400 years old. All copies in the world exactly tally with each other. So we have no worry from taunts of those people, whose every manuscript is different from each other, and still they consider their books as Word of God.

B. Quran provides a FALSIFICATION test to the whole world. That is to bring another book which is something like it. This challenge is still open for 1400 years and there are no takers.

2. No it does not mean that I have no evidence about how much Paul changed the Christianity. It means we are discussing Deut 18:18 and prophet hood of our prophet. I do not want to diverge, until this topic is finished.

3. The real Christians are those, who follow Jesus in every thing. Their life is as close to Jesus’ life, when he was alive and teaching the world. They only take Jesus’ words as guiding principles in their lives and not any one else’.

And the same holds for true Muslims also. We also try to emulate our prophet in our lives as much as we can, and that is what is meant by to be the real follower.

4. About the Counselor; Just re-read the verses in John Chapter 14-16, make a list and check out, how many of those Holy Spirit did fulfill. You find that he did not fulfill many of the most important conditions. The fulfillment of a prophecy is true when most of the conditions mentioned are fulfilled. Holy Spirit does not qualify for that.

In fact what Holy Spirit taught the disciples on Pentecost day, not a word of it is known and that was the Counselor about which Jesus spoke in three Chapters of John’s Gospel!! It is really incredible.

5. See your logic: "Paul, an apostle - sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God, the Father...(Galatians 1:1), That is why I said that Paul was a self claimed Apostle. After Jesus left, any body could make such claim, where is the proof that he was right. I think if you claim that Paul was that promised Counselor, you have some ground to stand on. Accepting Paul’s claim without any proof from Jesus is the folly.

6. As for your claim that Mohammad also was self claimed prophet, then he was not alone in that claim. All prophets before him also did the same. They did not bring Angles of God as witness for their prophet hood. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Lot and every other prophet put forward their claims of prophet hood before the public. If you claim that Paul was a prophet of God, then say it plainly.

7. Now, did you find the Gospel of Barnabas?

To: Madam Dee

Episode-11 “The Source of Quran”

Now I want to come to another of your favorite topic “Quran Bashing”!! I selected this topic after we have seen a few glimpses of the prophet’s Makkan life, to know about the background.

It is universally agreed that the prophet did not know how to read and how to write. He had not studied under any known teacher. His travels outside of Makkah were very limited. Before the age of forty years, no one has heard him giving any sermon or speaking at any public gathering. He was shy and simple by nature.

All of a sudden, how he got so much knowledge and what was the source of that knowledge which is presented in Quran.

One aspect of Quran is its linguistic beauty. It is the highest example of Arabic literature since the very first day of revelation and till our time. Its style and rhythm is unmatched. We have verbatim records of many of prophet’s sermons, speeches and sayings. They also have a very high standard of Arabic language, but they cannot be compared with Quran. Even if any Quranic verse comes between the sermons, it is easily distinguishable. How a man could speak in two different styles for 23 years, is itself highly unrealistic.

However, I leave the linguistic issue, because it can only be appreciated by those who have real taste of Arabic language. Let us talk about the contents of Quran. It deals with many issues like,

- Personality and Attributes of God Almighty.
- Details of the Day of Judgment and its scenes of Bliss and horrors.
- Details on beliefs and matters of jurisprudence.
- Comments on natural phenomenon and nature in general.
- Stories from past prophets and past generations.

Quranic verses are available on all these issues in abundance. How the prophet got all this information? Did he imagine it himself? Did he got bits and pieces of info from hearsay and then compiled it? Was someone coaching him secretly? Was Satan deceiving him? Or Was Angel of God revealing this information to him (as he claimed)?

If we assume that prophet was composing Quran himself and then presented it as the revelation from God, then it means he was dishonest. This does not match with his past life and his character. Then if the prophet was able to compile such a book, why others could not do it? How could he deceive his wife and people so close to him? Why would they believe in him? What was in it for them?

Then if Satan was appearing to him in the form of angel, then the basic teachings of Quran are against such an Idea. Why would Satan teach him to worship only one God and do not associate any partner with Him, Why would Satan ask people to prepare for the Day of Judgment? Why would Satan teach people to believe in all prophets and all books? This theory does not hold water for a moment.

Then, what if some one with knowledge of old scripture was secretly coaching the prophet? This also does not match with the honest character of prophet, but it needs further investigation.

We know till that time, all books of OT and NT were not translated into Arabic. So this man should have been a Non Arab living in Makkah. Such persons were usually slaves. This allegation is also mentioned in Quran and replied also. The basic point is how much Quran has actually taken from OT & NT books? What are the common points between the two and what the differences are? Then we again have to find out the source of knowledge for these differences.

Some people claim that prophet got some knowledge from so called apocryphal books. This may explain some points, but there are many points which are totally different, about that we have no source, except that prophet invented them himself.

We will have to work on this hypothesis in our next few postings.

Please put your comment on this episode.

MUQ:“Quran provides a FALSIFICATION test to the whole world. That is to bring another book which is something like it.”

The reason that nobody has attempted to do this is because it doesn’t make sense.‘Like the Quran’ how? Using similar language? A book claiming a visit from an angel? A book describing a vision? Starting a new religion? HOW like the Quran?

MUQ:“They only take Jesus’ words as guiding principles in their lives and not any one else”

Why would Christians accept the words of 'someone else'?

MUQ:“About the Counselor; Just re-read the verses in John Chapter 14-16, make a list and check out, how many of those Holy Spirit did fulfill.”

No matter how you try to get around it, Jesus told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem and He would send the Comforter to them 'in a few days'– the word 'few' meaning more than two and less than five.'In a few days' is very clear and concise and cannot be misinterpreted to mean 600 years.

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

"The Comforter, WHICH IS THE HOLY GHOST". This could not be clearer, how can anyone possibly misread this and claim that Mohammed was the Holy Ghost – ie the Comforter.

MUQ:“It is really incredible.”

It is equally incredible to us that Muslims insist on repeating the same silly and baseless claim that Mohammed is the Holy Ghost. It would be humorous if it weren’t so blasphemous.

MUQ:“As for your claim that Mohammad also was self claimed prophet”

Of course Mohammed was a self-proclaimed prophet. There were never witnesses to his revelations, nobody saw anything, nobody heard anything. Everything rests on his word alone. Why should he be believed rather than Paul?

MUQ:“After Jesus left, any body could make such claim, where is the proof that he was right.”

You are right,‘anybody’ could make such a claim, but Paul was the only one to do so. According to Acts 9:1–20, his conversion took place as he was travelling on the road to Damascus - he experienced a vision in a flash of light from the sky and fell to the ground. Then he heard a voice say: "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me?"

Saul and his companions saw the light, and some heard a voice, but Saul also saw a vision: the risen Lord Jesus (9:17, 27; 22:14; 26:16; 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8). The others did not see Jesus (22:9).

This is why Paul asserted that he received the Gospel not from man, but by "the revelation of Jesus Christ". Obviously something happened to Paul – just as something happened to Mohammed. Why should Paul’s experience be a lie and Mohammed’s the truth?

MUQ:“Now, did you find the Gospel of Barnabas”

The ‘Gospel of Barnabas’ is a fourteenth-century forgery, extant now only in Spanish and Italian manuscripts. No ancient writer ever referred to it or mentioned it. This document includes things that were not in use until centuries later. You are not providing this as ‘evidence’, surely.

MUQ::“Quran bashing”

What do you call the claim that parts of the Bible are corrupt and that Paul was an imposter who changed the teachings of Jesus to suit himself? I call it 'Christianity bashing'.

MUQ:“Personality and Attributes of God Almighty”.
The God of the Bible and the Allah of the Quran are obviously not the same God, even down to the name. According to the Bible, YHWH is the name of God 'forever'(Ex. 3: 13-15); according to Islam:

"Abu Huraira reported God's messenger as saying, "God, the Most High, has ninety-nine names. He who retains them in his memory will enter paradise. He is God than whom there is no God, the Compassionate (Ar-Rahmaan), the Merciful (Ar-Rahim), the King (Al-Malik)..." etc. etc. etc.

According to the Bible, evil is defined as wilful rebellion against YHWH, who is incapable of evil; according to the Quran, Allah is the creator of both good and evil (Q.91: 5-9).

YHWH is holy and expects His people to also be holy (Lev. 19:1-2); the concept of 'holy' is not mentioned in the Quran and is not given as an attribute of Allah (Q.59:20-24).

Man can know God personally (John 17:3); Allah is unknowable. The Biblical God's laws, commands, revelations, and actions are expressions of his character and He never acts in ways that are inconsistent with his character; Muslims believe that Allah changes his mind.

According to the Quran, Jesus was not crucified, He was replaced. If this is the case, it means that Allah allowed Christians to believe that Jesus was crucified for 600 years before Mohammed revealed that Jesus wasn't really crucified. That makes Allah a deceiver, as the Quran itself states 'Allah is the best of schemers'.

If the Quran was dictated to Mohammed by God, why are there so many errors and inaccurate data? For example:

The great flood happened in the time of Noah, not Moses (Sura 7:136 compared to Sura 7:59);

Moses was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter, not his wife (Sura 28:8-9 compared to Exodus 2:5);

CONT:

Crucifixion was not used in the time of Moses (Sura 7:124), it was not invented until one thousand years later.

Mohammed also misunderstood the basic tenets of Christianity and believed that Christians worshipped three gods; God the Father, Mary the mother, and Jesus the Son.

Sura 41:9-12 states that God created the world in eight days; Sura 7:51, 10:3 and 11:6 say six days.

Sura 86:5-7 implies that sperm is produced somewhere between the back and the ribs.

Sura 11 states that one of Noah's sons missed the ark and drowned; Sura 21 says that Noah and all his kin were saved from the flood.

Sura 2:56,57,61 state that the Jews returned to Egypt after the exodus.

Sura 3:41 says that Zechariah the father of John the Baptist was speechless for 3 days, in the Bible he was speechless for 9 months, the whole pregnancy of John the Baptist.

Suras 21:51-71 states that Abraham was saved from Nimrod's fire. The Bible tells us that Nimrod lived many generations before Abraham.

Sura 2:249 states that it Saul who selected his army by how they drank water. The Bible says it was Gideon (Judges 7)

Ibn Umar reported Allah's messenger as saying that a non-Muslim eats in seven intestines while a Muslims eats in one intestine.

Sura 2:144, 145 states that Christians bow in prayer towards Jerusalem.

Sura 2:25; 4:57; 11:23; 47:15 state the Bible says there will be 'Wine and sex in heaven'- This was Mohammed's idea of ‘Paradise’, not the Bible’s.

Sura 37:100-112 states that Abraham went to sacrifice Ishmael. The Bible says it was Issac.
Sura 19:22 Mary gave birth to Jesus under a palm tree; the Bible says that Mary gave birth to Jesus in a stable.

Sura 19:28 states that Mary mother of Jesus is Moses' sister Miriam

22. Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say Yes, Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say No.

One book must be wrong. The Bible was composed a few thousand years before the birth of Mohammed, why would the angel give Mohammed different information about events that had already happened and been recorded, like Noah and the flood?

Dee wrote:

The reason that nobody has attempted to do this is because it doesn’t make sense.‘Like the Quran’ how? Using similar language? A book claiming a visit from an angel? A book describing a vision? Starting a new religion? HOW like the Quran?
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.. This document includes things that were not in use until centuries later. You are not providing this as ‘evidence’, surely.

If you cannot understand a simple world “Like it” then how you would do it. It means a book in Arabic language that has the beauty and excellence of Quran so that Experts could say these look similar.

You are beating around the bush for Counselor. You will not do logical things as I told and continue with your rhetoric.

“Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost” the present translations say “Comforter, which is the holy spirit” and every true prophet is a true spirit as every false prophet is a false spirit. The Jesus said, that holy spirit will teach you all things. On Pentecost day, the holy spirit did not teach any new things to the disciples. There are many such discrepancies if we equate Holy Spirit with the Counselor.

If you look carefully the words “Which is the Holy Ghost” was a sort of explanation or parenthesis added by some one to the words used by Jesus. Holy Ghost was well known to Jesus, why would he use the word “Counselor” to confuse his disciples? Jesus was speaking of “Another Counselor” meaning someone like Jesus, a man and not a spooky spirit.

Paul’s conversion was self-made. He describes it at three places and at all three places it is different. At one place he says that those around him only saw the light but did not hear any thing, at another place he says those around him did not see light but heard the world and at another place he says they all fell to the ground.

Whatever might have happened, if he had reformed, he would have gone to chosen disciples of Jesus, who were alive and learnt from them the message of Jesus. What he did was immediately start preaching his own logic and message, which was materially different from Jesus’.

Mohammad’s (PBUH) case is totally different. He claimed he saw an angel and declared that he is prophet. He brought new message and claimed revelation. If you want to say the Paul was a prophet and received revelation from God, then say so. Then his teachings shall be his and his followers will be called “Pauline” and not “Christians”

Gospel of Barnabas might or might not be a forgery. The same charge could be laid an any of your books. It was mentioned in the list of banned books. It might not be preserved in its original condition (as none of the Biblical books might have been). But it gives you a version different from Paul’s. Have you read it? Please do not read it as you read Quran (to find defects in it), read it at bed time before you go to sleep.

Dee wrote:

MUQ::“Quran bashing”
What do you call the claim that parts of the Bible are corrupt and that Paul was an imposter who changed the teachings of Jesus to suit himself? I call it 'Christianity bashing'.
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...The great flood happened in the time of Noah, not Moses (Sura 7:136 compared to Sura 7:59);
Moses was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter, not his wife (Sura 28:8-9 compared to Exodus 2:5);

See what I meant that your favorite topic is “Quran Bashing”!! You are suddenly filled with “Holy Spirit” so to say and your key board is flying so to say.

But instead of flying here and there, you should concentrate on the logical questions which I put before you, that what is its source and from where the prophet got all this information:

I have given you three options, you choose one and then we can discuss on it. Just flying here and there and you giving 100 quotations and I trying to explain them and then you coming with another list and the discussion will be interminable. We should decide at the outset, as to how the prophet got the information contained in Quran?

Choose one of the option and provide your reasoning, instead of quoting from here and there from Quran and prophetic sayings.