Aussie restlessness echoes in U.S.

MUQ: "All the prophets were Muslims and they did not give their followers any other name but Muslims."

This is completely illogical. Muslims did not exist until Mohammed founded the religion of Islam. So the prophets were not Muslims, nor did they claim to be, since there was no such thing as a Muslim during their lifetimes. I wonder what the OT prophets, worshippers of Jehovah, would say if you informed them that they were Muslims.

"If you have any proof otherwise bring it forward."

Proof of what? You are the person making claims, the burden of proof is on you. The followers of Jesus Christ were known as CHRISTians almost from the beginning. Although I don't see why this should have any importance or relevence.

"And it came about that for an entire year they met with the church, and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch." (Acts 11:23-26).

"would like to derail the discussion into other channels"

Such as? I have read three books on Mohammed, I know his life story quite well. If I wished to derail the discussion, I would ask Muslims to explain several things - eg why is the Islamic vision of paradise so adolescent? Is it reasonable that Allah would create soulless sex slaves for the enjoyment of SOME Muslim males? This is never mentioned in the Bible, was it a new development by God?

The pagan Vikings had similar beliefs - if a warrior died bravely on the battlefield, the Valkries would transport him to Valhalla (the Viking version of heaven), to feast and enjoy himself until the end of the world. I don't see any difference between this pagan belief and the Muslim version of paradise.

The fifty-sixth sura gives a description of heaven - "gardens of delight" with "inwrought couches" where they could recline as "aye (ever) blooming youths," and that "flowing wine" would be brought to them. "Houris [sex slaves] with large dark eyes" who were "ever virgin," never growing old, would supply them with the pleasures of physical love.

A holy God who loved His people and had given them the ten commandments to live by, would hardly create a place resembling Sodom and Gomorrah rather than paradise.

"I also said that advent of our prophet is indeed mentioned in all previous scriptures and that is what we are discussing."

You are the only person discussing it. I have said several times that the evidence for these theories does not make sense and shows a complete lack of understanding of Christian beliefs.

"because God revealed it, and God’s knowledge is superior to humans"

You have no proof that God revealed it. Why would Mohammed be informed that the world is flat, and fixed in space when this is completely wrong? Why would Allah tell Mohammed that the sky could fall onto earth? These things sound more like the beliefs of the times rather than revelations from God.

Islam appears to Western eyes to be a childish religion, lacking spirituality and based on unquestioning, rigid obedience and intolerance to the beliefs of others. It is, in fact, more a polity than a religion.

Dee wrote:

MUQ: "All the prophets were Muslims and they did not give their followers any other name but Muslims."
This is completely illogical. Muslims did not exist until Mohammed founded the religion of Islam. So the prophets were not Muslims, nor did they claim to be, since there was no such thing as a Muslim during their lifetimes...
..

"Muslim" in Arabic means, one who surrenders his will to God. In that sense all the prophets were Muslims. They acted only on God's commands.

Same way "Islam" in Arabic means, will ful surrender, will ful submission. I.e. any religion in which humans wilfully submit themeselves to their Creator.

That was the original religion which was sent by God thru all the prophets.

Muslims and Islams could be translated in any language with similar meanings. These words are not based on any race, language, person or geographical location.

The names of religions which people have concocted for themselves, have these elements:

Judaism (has the Name Juda in it)

Hinduism (the word Hindu is a gepgraphical location)

Buddhism (Is related to Buddha, a man)

Christianity (is related again to a man Jesus).

God will not choose such name for His True religion.

It is never claimed in Quran that Mohammad started a new religion, Quran calls every prophet as Muslim, which is a fact.

Do you think Jesus was a Christian?

Moiz Qidwai wrote:

<quoted text>
Sister the verse you are mutilating is from Chapter 5 verse 104, it reads “O you who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if you ask things when the Quran is being revealed they will be made plain to you….some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith”
The interpretation is given in the books of Hadith, where the prophet told that God in His mercy kept certain things ambiguous in His books, so that it could be interpreted in a more general way. But if you ask questions about these, then the answer would restrict the wide door. The example is given about Jews, who asked never ending questions, making their religion very difficult to follow.
Again the conclusion you have drawn from 14:23, 40:64, & 22:65 is totally wrong. No where it says that sky is a solid structure which will fall down on earth. It says that God has held heavens on pillars that you cannot see, these pillars are therefore nor made of any material, it could be interpreted as forces that are balancing the nature together like Gravity etc.
Further in Arabic any thing above the earth can be called as sky, now we know that how many huge planets and stars are present in this universe. If it would not been God’s exact planning and control, any one could have collided with earth (portion of sky falling on earth…) and ended life here.
Sister, I request you to come out of your negative bias against Quran and Islam. You may believe in it or not, but hurling false accusations and interpreting your own meanings, could cause you ,more harm than any gain.

"The example is given about Jews, who asked never ending questions, making their religion very difficult to follow."

Why does questioning Islam make it difficult to follow? The Jews seem to have no problem in asking questions about their religion and following it at the same time.

"It says that God has held heavens on pillars that you cannot see"

If the heavens are supported on pillows, this means that there must be something to support. This in turn implies that the heavens are made of some solid material.

" ..hurling false accusations and interpreting your own meanings"

Then Muslims should stop attacking Christianity and forming their own interpretations of things they do not understand - like Pentecost. It's a two-way street.

"could cause you ,more harm than any gain."

I don't seek any gain, unless defending Christianity from spurious claims is counted as a gain.

Episode-8 “Conversion of HAMZA and OMAR”

Around the time the Makkan envoys returned empty handed from Abyssinia, two events happened, which improved the situation of Muslims in Makkah to some extent. These were conversion of HAMZA and Omar, two men with strength of will and body.

Conversion of HAMZA:

HAMZA was real uncle of the prophet; and of almost same age. He was a strong man and liked hunting and other outdoor sports. His physical strength and fighting prowess were second to none. Though sympathetic to prophet’s mission, he had not accepted his faith till then.

One day, when was out for hunting, ABU JAHL met our prophet and spoke to him in harshest tone and abused him severally. The prophet kept his cool and did not say any thing. One slave girl was watching this, when HAMZA returned in the evening, she told him, how ABU JAHL had misbehaved with the prophet.

HAMZA became very angry and went straight to Kaaba, where ABU JAHL was sitting with some friends. He hit ABU JAHL with his bow injuring him, and demanded how could he dared to speak to his nephew like this. Neither ABU JAHL nor any one could say any thing. Then he went straight to the prophet and accepted Islam. This pleased prophet and Muslims very much as they gained the support of one strong man in Makkah.

Conversion of OMAR:

This was more interesting. OMAR was also a strong man of Makkah and very strong willed. At that time, he was staunch enemy of the prophet and Muslims. One night prophet prayed to God that He strengthen Islam with the services of either Omar or ABU JAHL.

Next day, Omar thought that the solution of Islam’s problem hangs with the life of prophet. He left his house with naked sword in his hand, intending to kill the prophet and settle this issue once for all. On the way he met one fellow Makkan, Who had accepted Islam secretly. He asked Omar as to where he was going, when he learnt his intention, he told Omar “First take care of your own house, your Sister and her husband have both become Muslims”

Omar was stunned, he immediately went to his sister’s house and knocked sharply. He heard voices from inside reciting Quran, the door was opened after some delay. He accused them of leaving faith and started beating his brother in law. When his sister intervened to save her husband, he hit her also and blood started flowing from her face.

She, was after all made of the same matter as Omar, replied “O Omar, yes we have become Muslims, do whatever you can do, we will never return to old ways”. Omar felt ashamed on seeing blood on his sister’s face and her bold reply, his anger subsided immediately. He demanded to see what they were reading. She asked him to take bath first, as he was impure to touch the word of God.

Omar took bath and was handed over the opening verses from Surah TAHA, he exclaimed what a beautiful thing that was. Then he went to prophet and declared his faith. Prophet and Muslims felt extremely happy at the conversion of Omar, within three days of conversion of HAMZA.

This had immediate effect of the condition of Muslims, because same day, Omar and HAMZA led Muslims to Kaaba and they openly prayed there in front of Makkans, a feat they could not do before.

Please put your comment on this episode.

Moiz Qidwai wrote:

<quoted text>
"Muslim" in Arabic means, one who surrenders his will to God. In that sense all the prophets were Muslims. They acted only on God's commands.
Same way "Islam" in Arabic means, will ful surrender, will ful submission. I.e. any religion in which humans wilfully submit themeselves to their Creator.
That was the original religion which was sent by God thru all the prophets.
Muslims and Islams could be translated in any language with similar meanings. These words are not based on any race, language, person or geographical location.
The names of religions which people have concocted for themselves, have these elements:
Judaism (has the Name Juda in it)
Hinduism (the word Hindu is a gepgraphical location)
Buddhism (Is related to Buddha, a man)
Christianity (is related again to a man Jesus).
God will not choose such name for His True religion.
It is never claimed in Quran that Mohammad started a new religion, Quran calls every prophet as Muslim, which is a fact.
Do you think Jesus was a Christian?

MUQ: "In that sense all the prophets were Muslims."

This is completely dishonest.'Mu' means 'one who'.'Islam' obviously means what it says. The two together 'Mu'+'Islam' means 'a follower of Islam.' The word 'Islam' specifically refers to the religion of Mohammed as well as being an actual word meaning 'submission'.

In Surah 3:52 of the Qur'an, Jesus’ disciples tell Jesus: "do thou bear witness that we are Muslims".

An utter fabrication. Like many other fabrications about Jesus in the Quran.

MUQ: "God will not choose such name for His True religion."

How do you know what name God would choose for His true religion? Or do you think God speaks Arabic as His main language?

MUQ: "Quran calls every prophet as Muslim, which is a fact."

It is not a fact, it is nothing but a play on words, like the rest of the claims you have made.

MUQ: "Do you think Jesus was a Christian"

The word 'Christianity' is not 'related' to Jesus - it means 'followers of the teachings of Christ'. Jesus started the religion of Christianity, without Him there would be no such religion - He did not follow Himself. A stupid question.

MUQ: "The names of religions which people have concocted for themselves"

Nobody has 'concocted' names for their religions.
Islam used to be known in the West as 'Mohammedanism'. The suffix 'ism' refers to:

1. an action or its result eg, baptism
2. a state or quality eg, barbarism
3. a basis for prejudice eg, racism
4. a medical condition eg, alcoholism
OR
3. a system, principle or movement eg, Anglicanism, Buddhism, Judaism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Jainism, Paganism - or Mohammedanism.

Dee wrote:

<quoted text>
MUQ: "In that sense all the prophets were Muslims."
This is completely dishonest.'Mu' means 'one who'.'Islam' obviously means what it says. The two together 'Mu'+'Islam' means 'a follower of Islam.' The word 'Islam' specifically refers to the religion of Mohammed as well as being an actual word meaning 'submission'.
In Surah 3:52 of the Qur'an, Jesus’ disciples tell Jesus: "do thou bear witness that we are Muslims".
An utter fabrication. Like many other fabrications about Jesus in the Quran.
..
..3. a system, principle or movement eg, Anglicanism, Buddhism, Judaism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Jainism, Paganism - or Mohammedanism.

I think sister you are allergic to Arabic language and terminology, that’s all. Let me tell you, all languages are from God and all are equally beautiful. There is no superiority of one language over other, except that Last Book from God came in Arabic language.

Now you are trying to become expert in Arabic language and inventing your own meanings. The word Islam means “Will full submission” It also means “Peace” The root Arabic Word is “SLM” from which Salam (meaning peace), Islam (Submission and inner peace, and Muslim (One who submits) are derived.

To simplify the matter, will you please answer these simple questions?

Did God sent prophets to all nations of the Earth or not?

Did these prophets come with same message or different messages?

What was the name of this religion which these prophets preached?

If you do not know the answers, then you should trust what we are telling.

By the way Mohamadenism was a complete fabrication, which you concocted for Muslims, It is very good that we came out of it.

Episode-8A “Some glimpses from Prophets Character”

The Episode of Blind Man:

Abdullah bin Umm MAKTOUM, was a blind man and related to prophet thru marriage. He had accepted Islam at a very early stage. One day the prophet was having discussion with the chiefs of Makkah. He was trying his best to win them over to his side, because it could help in propagation of faith. At that very time, this Abdullah came and asked in a loud voice, that prophet should listen to him and teach him some thing about Islam.

The prophet did not like this interruption and felt s slight anger towards Abdullah. He in fact turned his face away from him. This was in no away an extraordinary reaction and no one can find a fault with it, in fact no one would even have remembered such an incident. But God did not want that His prophet should not show even the slightest deviation from the Highest Moral Standard on which he was placed. The following verses from Quran came immediately:

“(The prophet) frowned and turned away, because there came to him the blind man (interrupting). But what could tell you that perchance he would grow in purity? As to one who regards himself as self sufficient. To him you attend; ….but to him who came to you striving earnestly and with fear (in his heart); of him you were unmindful. By no means (should it be so)!” 80:1-8

This reminded prophet that in the eyes of God, the worldly positions have no meaning. Afterwards when Abdullah used to come to prophet, he would point to him and say ‘He is the guy, because of whom God showed his anger to me”. Later in Medina, on many occasions, when prophet was out of town, he would ask Abdullah to lead the prayers in the place of prophet.

In the Cause of Justice:

It is well known that ABU JAHL was one of the staunchest enemies of Islam. His enmity and foul language which he used for our prophet was known to every one. He had in his control, some money due to an orphan boy. The boy would ask ABU JAHL for his money, but he would give one excuse or another. One day the same thing happened, the boy started to weep and went to Kaaba to ask if some one will help him in his cause. The people pointed towards our prophet and told the boy,“Go to Mohammad, he will help you”.

The boy came to our prophet and explained the situation. Our prophet took the boy by hand and went straight to the house of ABU JAHL and knocked. The Makkans were watching, they thought that they will have some fun. When ABU JAHL opened the door and saw our Prophet with the boy, he was stunned. Prophet asked ABU JAHL to handover the boy his money. He went inside meekly and handed over the money to the boy.

A similar incident of this type also happened in the case of ABU JAHL and an outsider, who had sold his camel to ABU JAHL and did not receive the payment. Our prophet went with this outsider to the house of ABU JAHL and asked him to pay his dues. He complied this time also.

This shows the moral status of Makkan chiefs in general, and the readiness of our prophet to help every one in the cause of justice.

Please put your comment on this episode.

Moiz Qidwai wrote:

<quoted text>
I think sister you are allergic to Arabic language and terminology, that’s all. Let me tell you, all languages are from God and all are equally beautiful. There is no superiority of one language over other, except that Last Book from God came in Arabic language.
Now you are trying to become expert in Arabic language and inventing your own meanings. The word Islam means “Will full submission” It also means “Peace” The root Arabic Word is “SLM” from which Salam (meaning peace), Islam (Submission and inner peace, and Muslim (One who submits) are derived.
To simplify the matter, will you please answer these simple questions?
Did God sent prophets to all nations of the Earth or not?
Did these prophets come with same message or different messages?
What was the name of this religion which these prophets preached?
If you do not know the answers, then you should trust what we are telling.
By the way Mohamadenism was a complete fabrication, which you concocted for Muslims, It is very good that we came out of it.

"Muslim (One who submits) are derived."

Muslims use this word to claim that all the OT prophets were Muslims. When we say, "that's impossible, Mohammed was not yet born", you reply, "But the word Muslim means follower of Islam and Islam means submission to God, therefore the prophets were Muslims because they had submitted themselves to God". This is a dishonest play on words because the word 'Islam' is also the name of a religion as well as a word meaning 'submission'. Nobody 'invented' that fact.

MUQ: "Did God sent prophets to all nations of the Earth or not?"

Muslims claim to worship the same God as Jews and Christians and yet expect us to believe that God sent another messenger 700 years after Jesus to 'complete His teachings'. The 'evidence' is the usual play on words -'if a letter was changed in this word, it would fit in better with Islam' etc. etc.

MUQ: "If you do not know the answers, then you should trust what we are telling."

You can't be saying that we should trust Muslims because only Muslims know the truth? Mohammed told his followers to read the Bible if they had questions - except that Muslims now wish to change the story and say that parts of the Bible are corrupted. If this is so, why did Mohammed tell Muslims to read and believe the Bible? Are you saying that the Messenger of God didn't know that the Bible was 'corrupted'?

MUQ: "By the way Mohamadenism was a complete fabrication, which you concocted for Muslims"

Mohammedanism is a word, not a fabrication. Do you honestly think Muslims are so important that 'we' concocted a new word especially for them? The word means '[religious] system of Mohammed', it is no different from 'Anglicanism' or 'Catholicism' or any other 'ism'.

MUQ: "Did these prophets come with same message or different messages?"

'Different', maybe; 'completely opposite', no. Mohammed's teachings are almost the opposite to those of Jesus - so no, I don't believe for a moment that God would send another messenger negating or 'superseding' the Ten Commandments or the teachings and promises of Jesus. Nor do I believe that God would create soulless sex slaves ("Thou shalt not commit adultery"). Nor do I believe that polygamy is the wish of God. Not the God I recognise, anyhow.

"In Surah 3:52 of the Qur'an, Jesus’ disciples tell Jesus: "do thou bear witness that we are Muslims".

An outright fabrication. Please point out where the Bible tells us that the disciples told Jesus they were Muslims. Or is this another word-play on 'Muslim: follower of Islam'?

In fact, the Quran gives a lot of wrong information about Jesus, eg - Jesus told His followers to love their enemies, the Quranic version of Jesus teaches that those who die fighting for Allah will go to paradise.

The Quranic 'Jesus' commands war against Christians and Jews until they surrender and pay tribute (Q.9:29).

The Bible tells us that Jesus will return to judge all humanity (Matt.16:27)- the Quran tells us that 'Isa' will return to destroy Christianity and all other religions and that he will implement the sharia of Mohammed.

I find it impossible to believe that this is the same God. In fact, nobody with the slightest power of logic and reason could claim that Allah is the Biblical God.

Dee wrote:

<quoted text>
"Muslim (One who submits) are derived."
Muslims use this word to claim that all the OT prophets were Muslims. When we say, "that's impossible, Mohammed was not yet born", you reply, "But the word Muslim means follower of Islam and Islam means submission to God, therefore the prophets were Muslims because they had submitted themselves to God". This is a dishonest play on words because the word 'Islam' is also the name of a religion as well as a word meaning 'submission'. Nobody 'invented' that fact.
..Nor do I believe that polygamy is the wish of God. Not the God I recognise, anyhow.

Do you mean to say that OT prophets refused to submit their will to the Will of their Creator?(Why would they object to being called Muslim in Arabic and matching words in other languages?). It is as I told you; you own bias against Arabic Language.

Why did God send Jesus 1200 years after Moses to change or modify his message? What was the logic in that?

By same logic God sent our prophet 600 years after Jesus to change and modify his message? If the first logic is true, so the second one is also true.

Our Prophet never asked Muslims to read Bible if they want to know any thing. The messenger of God said that Jews and Christians have corrupted their books. They write books with their own hands and then say “It is From God”. If you want any proof; look at the books of apocrypha, who wrote them? Muslims? Or Jews and Christians? Then they claimed that these are God’s words. Many of the apocryphal books were included in the Bible and many were left out. Most celebrated and oldest manuscripts do contain one or the book of so called apocrypha.

Why same God would send prophets with different religions to different parts of the world? The logic demands that the message should be same and if you find any differences then it be due to corruption of the followers and not because of prophets or God.

Jesus will indeed come down to earth to establish the truth. His primary job will be to slay the Anti Christ. At the same time, the falsehood and cobwebs, which Christians have built around his personality, would be washed away and he will be seen as what he really was “A Word of God, Which was sent to the Virgin Mary, A spirit proceeding from God and a Righteous Prophet”(Remember the Abyssinian episode).

It will be Good news for those who wish to see the real Jesus, However it will be Sad and Bad news for those who Worship Jesus and make him equal unto God..

Episode-9 “Three years of Social Boycott”
When Makkans saw that Abu Talib and BANI HASHIM will not abandon the prophet, and the numbers of Muslims in Makkah is ever on the rise, they arranged a meeting of all the chief’s of clans and held a discussion as to how to proceed further.

They decided to boycott the whole tribe of BANI HASHIM. They decided that no one will hold any relation with them, they will not marry with them, nor sell or buy anything from them and will boycott them from all social gatherings, till they handover the prophet to them. A declaration of this effect was written and hanged by the door of Kaabah, so that every one be aware of it.

The whole tribe of BANI HASHIM shifted to a small valley in Makkah and waited for wiser sense to prevail. The boycott lasted almost three years, which were very hard for the entire HASHIM Tribe.

Only one family of BANI HASHIM was exempted from this boycott and that was the house of ABU LAHAB, a real uncle of the prophet. ABU LAHAB like ABU JAHL was the fiercest enemy of prophet and his message. His attitude resulted in a special chapter in Quran, in which his doom was predicted by name. Out of all enemies of prophet in Makkah, he holds the distinction of being cursed by name in Quran.

Members of BANI HASHIM were isolated from day to day activities and they could come out only during the Hajj period, when no ban could be enforced. Men, women and children all suffered heavily.

However every one in Makkah was not happy with this boycott, it had never happened before. There were many persons of other tribes who had marriage relation with BANI HASHIM, but they could not do much, in the beginning of ban period. However as the time passed and no result was obtained, these people started getting restless and appealed to many other people, who were not that hard hearted.

Ultimately after three years, five or six of these people raised this issue jointly at a gathering at Kaabah and appealed to the good sense of Makkans. There was strong opposition from ABU JAHL and ABU LAHAB. At the same time our prophet informed Abu Talib, that termites have eaten away every part of that boycott agreement, except where the name Allah was mentioned.

Abu Talib ca\me to Makkans with this info, and when they opened the document, they found exactly as the prophet had told them. They had no face left but to agree for lifting of boycott.

Finally after three years BANI HASHIM came out of isolation. The prophet’s mission continued thru out this period.

Please put your comment on this episode.

Andrew wrote:

<quoted text>
Has it occurred to you that most Australians don't care about your religious garbage? If you muslims had any understanding of how boring you are to us you'd blush and faint.

No inderpent thinking would ever occur to a fantatic as you can see by the above posts

MUQ: "Why would they object to being called Muslim in Arabic and matching words in other languages?"

Very disingenuous. Nobody would object if it were not such an obvious play on words in an attempt to fool people who do not know that the word 'Muslim' has two meanings - 1. a follower of the teachings of Mohammed, and 2. one who submits to God (a direct translation). All Muslims, Arab and non-Arab alike, are obliged to pray in Arabic, even if they do not understand a single word. How many Muslims have read the Quran and understand it thoroughly? Very few.

MUQ; "What was the logic in that?"

Read the Bible. There is nothing 'illogical' in God's promise to send a Messiah. This prophesy is mentioned all through the Bible, beginning in Genesis. The timespan is God's to decide.

MUQ: "By same logic God sent our prophet 600 years after Jesus to change and modify his message? If the first logic is true, so the second one is also true."

You completely misunderstand. The Messiah promised by the Bible is not another prophet sent to change God's message.

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, Or the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness FROM THEN ON AND FOREVERMORE. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this" (Isaiah 9:6-7).

"FROM THEN ON AND FOREVER MORE". Islam does not fit into the Biblical prophesy, as we keep saying. No matter how much you play on words or try to say 'this word should be that word', Muslim claims simply do not make sense to anyone familiar with the Bible or Christianity.

CONT: MUQ:“Our Prophet never asked Muslims to read Bible if they want to know any thing."

Then what do the following verses mean?

"He has revealed to thee the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, a guidance for the people." -- Sura 3:3

"And We have revealed to thee the Book with the truth, verifying that which is before it of the Book and a guardian over it." -- Sura 5:48

As I see it, these Suras indicate that the Quran (and hence the teachings of Mohammed) were not meant to discredit the Bible but rather to endorse its reliability.

MUQ: "Why same God would send prophets with different religions to different parts of the world?"

Hundred of years before Jesus, the Buddha preached non-violence and told his followers that the taking of life is wrong, just as Jesus preached. Judaism gives us the Ten commandments, by which Christians also live. These three world religions preach a similar message. Islam is the only religion that preaches endless war against 'unbelievers' and tells its followers that it is permissible to kill in the name of religion.

MUQ: "It will be Good news for those who wish to see the real Jesus"

How is it possible for Muslims born hundreds of years after Jesus, to determine 'the real Jesus'? How is it possible for them to know Jesus better than His own disciples and those who lived in His time and heard Him speak? Muslims who have never read the Bible and know nothing about Christianity (except what they have been told by biased teachers) believe they can interpret its contents better than anyone else. Jesus Himself told us there would only be one more revelation of truth to come after Him; He meant His return to earth, He was not referring to Mohammed.

MUQ: "They write books with their own hands and then say “It is From God”."

Nobody has ever claimed that the Bible was written by God or 'from God'. It was written by Hebrews over thousands of years, recording the events of their time, religious and historical. Some were prophets who described their experiences with God. Quite different from a book whose author claims that God spoke to him via an angel and dictated a new religion that would supersede all others.

Muslims believe Mohammed's claims and reject the idea that Jesus was or is the Son of God. There is no reconciling Christian and Muslim beliefs.

To: Madam Dee

Episode-10 “ Makkan’ charges against the prophet”

Before our prophet had declared his mission, Makkans gave him titles of Al SADIQ (Meaning truthful) and Al AMEEN (Meaning trustworthy). They agreed gladly to his arbitration a few years before to solve the tricky question of fixing the Black Stone in Kaaba.

But their views changed “Dramatically” once the prophet declared his mission. Now he was the subject of their jokes and merriment. They called him names and things. Some are given below; I have left Quranic references to save space.

They called him 1) Liar 2) Poet 3) Sorcerer 4) A Man Possessed 5) Leading a possessed group 6) Source of enmity between families 7) Fabricator of God’s word 8) A man like them, eating, walking in markets, and having wives and children 8) Why does he not show Signs and Miracles 9) Why was he chosen above Chiefs of Makkah and TAIF 11) Why an angel does not walk with him to warn every one 12) Why God does not make a garden for him to eat there from 13) Why no treasure is sent down from sky for him

They called Quran 1) A Fabrication 2) Tales of Bygone days 3) A thing coached by tutors during day and night hours 4) A message which their forefathers did not know 5)Why it is sent down in bits and pieces, why not at once 6) We can also bring a thing like it, if we try. 7) Do not listen to this message and make noise, may be you will succeed in stopping its spread.

They demanded 1) Why they also do not see angels 2) Why God does not speak to them also 3) Why God does not punish them so far for rejecting the prophet 4) When the punishment will come 5) When the last day will come 6) Why a flowing river is not brought to Makkah to make it green.7) Why the book is not sent down from sky, so they can touch it.

They were not unanimous in any thing. Many of the charges were contradictory. A man cannot be both at the same time. And that trait is repeated to our present times. Read any critical biography of prophet, he will give contradictory answers to explain different episodes in the prophet’s life. Each author will reach a different conclusion.

However, there was one area, where the Makkans did not put any charge on our prophet. That was his personal character and his life style. They knew so much of him that they feared that any attack on that will be considered as white lies. It was only left to our modern day Orientalists to open that door and malign the prophet’s character as immoral.

Please put your comment on this episode.

Moiz Qidwai wrote:

Please put your comment on this episode.

Put yours to DEE.
Dee:1
Moiz Qidwai:0 by default

Dee wrote:

Very disingenuous. Nobody would object if it were not such an obvious play on words in an attempt to fool people who do not know that the word 'Muslim' has two meanings - 1. a follower of the teachings of Mohammed, and 2. one who submits to God (a direct translation). All Muslims, Arab and non-Arab alike, are obliged to pray in Arabic, even if they do not understand a single word. How many Muslims have read the Quran and understand it thoroughly? Very few.
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Since Mohammad was also a prophet of God, so his followers are also Muslims as earlier prophets and their followers were also Muslims. It is like when you follow Jesus, you do not reject Moses, David or other past prophets.

Since Quran is the only “Confirmed Word of God” existing with us, we use that in our prayers, for uniformity and universal brotherhood. All Muslims thru out the world pray in exactly the same way. If each one used their own language, they would be a divided lot. It is not that difficult to learn Quranic Arabic either, specially the portions which are normally read in prayers.

This is your own theory that no prophet will come after Messiah. While Messiah himself told that a future counselor / Comforter will come after him (and that is precisely what we are discussing now).

Quran does confirm Torah, INJIL and ZABUR as books of revelation. But these are not the present day Pentateuch, Book of Psalm and Four Gospels. These books are not what Quran confirms. Though these books may contain some portion of the original revelations.

All good teachings present in Torah and INJIL are confirmed by Quran, whereas the corruptions (like Trinity, Divinity of Jesus and his bearing sins of worlds) are forthrightly rejected. So Quran now contains the Truth and Whole Truth of the Will of God Al Mighty.

Quran is a revelation from God and His knowledge is superior to all human knowledge. It was not Mohammad who was making all these claims, but God, who was sending this information thru angel Gabriel to our prophet.

We have no problem in accepting Jesus as Son of God, but it should be in the same sense in which it was used by his people, the Jews. Same way Adam was called Son of God, David was called Son of God, Ephraim was called Son of God and many others were called Son of God in Bible.

What we reject is Jesus as Begotten Son of God, God in human form and as One in trinity with God. And we reject it, because Jesus himself never claimed that position. It was Paul and Church which have hanged those labels around his neck.

We honor Jesus exactly as he was “A Word of God, which was sent to Virgin Mary, a Spirit proceeding from God and a Righteous Prophet”(Remember the Abyssinian Episode?)

I think, that when Jesus comes on second coming (and you are still alive then) and says that he did not die on cross, you would like to crucify him (so that your books remain true)!!!

MUQ: "earlier prophets and their followers were also Muslims"

You know, and I know, that this is a play on words. The OT prophets were Hebrews, worshippers of Jehovah.

MUQ: "While Messiah himself told that a future counselor / Comforter"

The Bible makes it crystal clear that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Jesus would no doubt have mentioned it to His disciples if they had to wait 700 years for the Comforter – instead, He told them to wait in Jerusalem and the Comforter would come to them 'in a few days'. Muslims continue to make this ridiculous claim with no proof or evidence whatsoever.

MOQ: "It was Paul and Church which have hanged those labels around his neck."

Another specious Muslim claim. Please explain exactly how the Christian Gospels could have been changed or ‘corrupted’. There are approximately 5,740 (Welte, 2003) manuscripts of the whole or part of the Greek text of the New Testament (pre-dating Mohammed) still in existence. Worldwide, there are about 24,800 copies of these original manuscripts. There are also 80,000 quotations in the works of early Christian writers – these are so extensive that the New Testament could be reconstructed from them without the actual New Testament documents. Then there is the obvious fact that the Christian Gospels were so widely distributed both before and after Mohammed, that any attempt to change (or add/subtract) anything in the Christian Gospels would have resulted in immediate discovery and condemnation.

The New Testament was handed down from apostolic times and guarded by the early Christian churches. The Septuagint edition of the Old Testament was always in the hands of both Christians and Jews, both rivals in religion. Any attempts to change this by either side would have been noticed, wouldn’t you say?

MUQ: "All good teachings present in Torah and INJIL are confirmed by Quran"

Muslims do not get to decide what is and is not 'good'.

MUQ: "whereas the corruptions (like Trinity, Divinity of Jesus and his bearing sins of worlds) are forthrightly rejected"

As we forthrightly reject Mohammed and all his teachings and consider him a false prophet.

MUQ: "If each one used their own language, they would be a divided lot"

So they babble prayers five times a day in a language they do not understand? And this unites them?

MUQ:“It was not Mohammad who was making all these claims, but God, who was sending this information thru angel Gabriel to our prophet.”

Nearly 600 years before Mohammed, Christians were warned against Islam by both Jesus and the Apostle Paul. Jesus warned about the many false prophets who would follow Him (Matthew 16:11-12) and Paul wrote very specifically:

"But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a Gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!" (Galatians 1:8).

Jesus also predicted Muslim intolerance. He warned that the day was likewise coming when religious zealots will kill Christians and think they are offering a service to God (John 16:2-4).

dee:2
Moiz Qidwai:0

MUQ: "malign the prophet’s character as immoral."

It depends upon the definition of 'immoral'. Many of the prophets acted in an immoral fashion, eg King David. Only Jesus, who was the Messiah, lived a life without sin. According to Christian beliefs, a man who marries twelve times, once to a nine year old child, steals and engages in warfare on those who do accept his teachings would not be regarded as a moral man. The Jews of the time also professed disgust at a prophet whose chief concern seemed to be his harem.

MUQ: "They called Quran 1) A Fabrication .."

Quite a lot of the Quran appears to be a fabrication. Although Muslims often give the impression that the Quran was written almost as it was dictated to Mohammed, this is not the case. The oldest Qur'an dates from around 790 A.D.- 158 years after Mohammed’s death, whereas the New Testament was written by those who had known Jesus personally.

The 10th century Muslim scholar Al Bukhari writes that whenever Mohammed fell into a trance, his revelations were written on whatever was handy at the time, including the leg or thigh bones of dead animals, palm leaves, parchments, papers, skins, mats, stones, and bark. When there was nothing at hand, Mohammed's followers tried to memorise it as closely as possible.

Zuhri reports, "We have heard that many Qur'an passages were revealed but that those who had memorized them fell in the Yemama fighting. Those passages had not been written down, and following the deaths of those who knew them, were no longer known ....'

The wife of Mohammed said after his death:

"The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

"I think the broader implications of some of the revisionist scholarship is to say that the Koran is not an authentic book, that it was fabricated 150 years later," - Ebrahim Moosa, a Muslim cleric and Professor of Religious Studies at Duke University. He was forced to leave South Africa after his house was firebombed by Muslim fanatics.

So it seems that Muslims are not in the position to meddle in the beliefs of others or to dictate what is right or wrong. Surely they try to insert Mohammed into the Bible to bolster the authenticity of Islam, a belief with no other source but Mohammed’s word.

Mohammed only heard about Jesus over five centuries after His death, and seems to have gotten confused. The Quran even males the erroneous claim that Christians believe in three gods consisting of the Father, Mary his wife, and Jesus their offspring.

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three..." Surah 5:73-75,

The orthodox Christian understanding of the Trinity is: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit being three distinct co-eternal persons, sharing one indivisible Divine essence.