Bush veto expected on waterboard ban

Torture to get someone to reveal vital secrets that will give us an advantage and end the war sooner is much more humane than bombing cities and killing tons of uninvolved citizens!

As far as "we are the good guys- civilized" don't you realize that the soldiers and officers alike-volunteers, by the way- do this for one reason and one reason only: SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT YOURSELF!!! You should be greatful they protect us! You have no idea the sacrifice they make so you can say what you want and go to the job you picked for yourself uninterrupted! So that YOU can remain a CIVILIZED AMERICAN!!! GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!

citizen contraire wrote:

<quoted text>
... Just trying to be helpful!

Ok, you want to be helpful. Here you go........Put on your jammies, climb into bed and stuff the pillow over your head. Now, close your eyes, stick your thumb in your mouth or......? Nite, Nite.

Why is all these bull crap things called water something you had Watergate, whitewater, now you got waterboarding whats next waterpolo are waterskiing or watersports.

citizen contraire wrote:

Oh yes...They feel no pain being suffocated, having water forced in their lungs. If prisoner feels no pain then exactly why is it called TORTURE ? How do the interragators extract information if there is no threat of pain and death? In that respect, your post doesn't make sense.

Wow... and YOU are the expert on waterboarding?

Then explain... WHY has it been used so frequently ON OUR OWN troops during training?

No water ends up in the lungs there big boy.

In the hands of our military... I would volunteer for waterboarding.

THAT is how "dangerous" it is. So why does it work?

FEAR.

Which has more POWER than pain. One can endure pain. But FEAR is much more fundamental.

The methods our guys use can "bypass" the part of the brain that says... "this does not hurt and it's not real" and get to the part that SCREAMS "help me... I am drowning...".

It's similar to the small hit around the knee that causes you the "jerk" EVEN if YOU try to control it.

Again.

WE do it to our own troops and have done it for decades.

WHERE were YOU in demanding that we STOP it against our elite soldiers?

WHY did YOU NOT STOP "the water in the lungs" thing that YOU say happens - to our young American men who had it done to them during training?

I doubt if YOU would and the rest here would have that answer.

Plus this was done on no more than THREE terrorists... and at least ONE gave up MORE useful Intel than probably 100 of the other smaller fish.

This one ALSO lasted a record time before "breaking" so it shows HE was one strong mother with very hard convictions about what he was doing and supporting.

This one was a REAL one and NOT a wannabe.

WE HAVE waterboarded MORE of our own than them...

BTW... place somebody who is afraid of heights on the tallest roller coaster... that is what YOU pretty much feel when waterboarded. Again it's ONLY primal FEAR at work here.

And it works on ANYBODY.

Many of you are not putting things into perspective.

First, this is not WWII or Vietnam! We are dealing with a new kind of threat here. We are talking about a group or even a single individual that could possibly kill thousands of civilian people with one bomb.

This is not a war where army is placed against army with rules of engagment, this is war of extremeist fanatics against civilian women and children. A war in which a single individual might try to kill thousands of the innocent.

Those of us who believe that waterboarding should stay on the table do recognize it as an extreme measure, but we also can see clearly that these are extreme times.

If you can't understand this than you need to sit back and rethink your postition.

surfer wrote:

Why is all these bull crap things called water something you had Watergate, whitewater, now you got waterboarding whats next waterpolo are waterskiing or watersports.

What might come next is water contamination from the explosion of a dirty bomb that happened because waterboarding was banned from interigation...:)

Ahhh That's what it says in the Qaran. You must be a muslim.

Godsmack wrote:

<quoted text>
The reference is well-known. It is "an eye for an eye ..."

john henry wrote:

Many of you are not putting things into perspective.
First, this is not WWII or Vietnam! We are dealing with a new kind of threat here. We are talking about a group or even a single individual that could possibly kill thousands of civilian people with one bomb.
This is not a war where army is placed against army with rules of engagment, this is war of extremeist fanatics against civilian women and children. A war in which a single individual might try to kill thousands of the innocent.
Those of us who believe that waterboarding should stay on the table do recognize it as an extreme measure, but we also can see clearly that these are extreme times.
If you can't understand this than you need to sit back and rethink your postition.

The only extremists WE need to fear are in OUR Whitehouse.

Just answer my questions.

john henry wrote:

Many of you are not putting things into perspective.
First, this is not WWII or Vietnam! We are dealing with a new kind of threat here. We are talking about a group or even a single individual that could possibly kill thousands of civilian people with one bomb.
This is not a war where army is placed against army with rules of engagment, this is war of extremeist fanatics against civilian women and children. A war in which a single individual might try to kill thousands of the innocent.
Those of us who believe that waterboarding should stay on the table do recognize it as an extreme measure, but we also can see clearly that these are extreme times.
If you can't understand this than you need to sit back and rethink your postition.

john henry wrote:

<quoted text>
What might come next is water contamination from the explosion of a dirty bomb that happened because waterboarding was banned from interigation...:)

And the sky might fall tommorrow.
Cowards are so always.

One response, any country should do the same with any American for a reason or no reason to send a clear message to the cowerd Bush

From where do you get your information? I work in the intel business. You couldn't be more wrong. Intel garnered from waterboarding is deemed unreliable. People will say anything to make the torture stop. Then we have wasted precious resources investigating bad intel. And yes, it is quite painful when water is forced into your sinus cavities.

homepcmd wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow... and YOU are the expert on waterboarding?
Then explain... WHY has it been used so frequently ON OUR OWN troops during training?
No water ends up in the lungs there big boy.
In the hands of our military... I would volunteer for waterboarding.
THAT is how "dangerous" it is. So why does it work?
FEAR.
Which has more POWER than pain. One can endure pain. But FEAR is much more fundamental.
The methods our guys use can "bypass" the part of the brain that says... "this does not hurt and it's not real" and get to the part that SCREAMS "help me... I am drowning...".
It's similar to the small hit around the knee that causes you the "jerk" EVEN if YOU try to control it.
Again.
WE do it to our own troops and have done it for decades.
WHERE were YOU in demanding that we STOP it against our elite soldiers?
WHY did YOU NOT STOP "the water in the lungs" thing that YOU say happens - to our young American men who had it done to them during training?
I doubt if YOU would and the rest here would have that answer.
Plus this was done on no more than THREE terrorists... and at least ONE gave up MORE useful Intel than probably 100 of the other smaller fish.
This one ALSO lasted a record time before "breaking" so it shows HE was one strong mother with very hard convictions about what he was doing and supporting.
This one was a REAL one and NOT a wannabe.
WE HAVE waterboarded MORE of our own than them...
BTW... place somebody who is afraid of heights on the tallest roller coaster... that is what YOU pretty much feel when waterboarded. Again it's ONLY primal FEAR at work here.
And it works on ANYBODY.

I rthought I read somewhere that the Marines exposed trainees to waterboarding because of the threat it would be used against them by the enemy. However, it was discontinued because its effect was so demoralizing on the troops. Keep in mind that the exposure was under known to be for training and under controlled circumstances.

I wonder if you will consider answering the four questions I have asked. I believe that they frame the discussion properly while allowing proponents to argue for their side.

Uh Oh wrote:

From where do you get your information? I work in the intel business. You couldn't be more wrong. Intel garnered from waterboarding is deemed unreliable. People will say anything to make the torture stop. Then we have wasted precious resources investigating bad intel. And yes, it is quite painful when water is forced into your sinus cavities. <quoted text>

Randy wrote:

Answer the following questions:
(1) Were we wrong to try Japanese soldiers for war crimes when they subjected our soldiers to waterboarding?
(2) Should America not prosecute captured enemies if we can prove they subjected our soldiers to waterboarding now?
(3) Given that we have explicitly called waterboarding torture in the past, isn't the true argument here for it simply that we should be able to use torture to extract information to save American lives?
(4) If the answer to number 3 is yes, is there any form of torture America should not use in order to save American lives?
I will be happy to pickup the dialogue after these questions are answered.
<quoted text>

Your points are well taken... but I perceive them as shallow. Here's my opinion why I claim that.

On #1... the methods used in the 40's is NOT the method used now. You can "dunk" a person... or place a cloth over item and slowly pour water over their face... and the amount of water and the "cloth" used can vary the impact.

You claim is like comparing a car made in the 40s with a hybrid of today. Close... but no cigar.

On #2... first see #1... what ARE their procedures for "waterboarding" and - second- from what CNN shows - they use BRUTAL torture methods and seem to NOT be bothered by it. They record it and send it to ANYONE who would play it on TV. Plus THEY do it to ANYONE. We did it to THREE specific targets to gather Intel. Explain the "moral equivalency" here.

On #3... WHO has called it "torture" in the past? This IS like talking about politics or religion. I can find any SIDE to all three subjects and each would say THEY are right and the "other side" is wrong.

And if YOU go by what the media says... an associate professor at the University of Oregon's School of Journalism and Communication, Scott R. Maier, conducted research into the accuracy of newsprint, and found that about 50% of 1,220 news stories contained errors. And only 23 of these (about 2%) ever printed a correction.

PLUS...

Do some research on the "doctrine of necessity" or "doctrine of competing harm" - it's a legal term that one may apply to using EVEN fully illegal and truly BRUTAL torture technique.

And #4... to find insight to this one... see #3.

Plus this claim is similar to the idea that a sharp shooter should not take a shot a person who has his finger over the "trigger" because it "might" cause him to press it and explode.

BUT...

NOT doing anything can produce the same thing. That "rock and a hard place" is a very tough place to be in.

I would NOT want to be in that position. Why would anyone want to be there. But sometimes one is and that person needs to make tough choices. THAT is the DOWNSIDE to being the leader. It's NOT all good.

Again... your question are BOTH valid AND based on limited informatin. Hope I helped in letting you see the forest over the tress.

George Warcriminal Bush , does anyone remember that we executed Japaneese officers after WWII for this very offence, when will we send this moron to his maker for the same offense , oh im sorry his is much worse , like Vietnam the coward doesnt take part he sits on the sidelines and lets it happen, just like the tornado victums , the hurricane victums , the environment , and the economey , so i cant spell , i can still tell right from bush

If water-boarding would make Bush tell the truth, it might be worth considering.

Chuck Zimmerman wrote:

<quoted text>
The only extremists WE need to fear are in OUR Whitehouse.

Many said that "before" WW2.

Both here and in Europe. No one could believe that NAZI Germany was willing and capable of doing what they ended up doing.

I guess you prefer to take the risk of doing it all over again.

This is what I find interesting. Some say we sould sit odwn and talk to Iran, and North Korea.

But we cannot even sit down and talk to each other. Let's fix our own house and then we can confron the issues we have before us.

But if we cannot be civil with one another... If WE say that we should "fear" each other...

Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you and me.

He is training with minimum food or water, in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon - because he values it more than his life. He doesn't worry about what workout to do... or in any other possession but the one that keeps him alive long enough to KILL you or me.

His rucksack weighs what he weighs, and he WILL run until the enemy (as he perceives it) stops chasing him - or is dead (that happens to be US right now whether YOU like it or not).

The True believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'... he knows he either wins or he dies - and accepts to do BOTH anyways. He doesn't go home at 5 PM... he IS home. And he knows only the CAUSE...

Now... YOU are the "leader" of this ENEMY he is training against...

WHAT are YOU going to DO about it?

i am john q wrote:

<quoted text>IF YOU WANT TO KNOW "WHO" THEY ARE PICKING UP FOR WHAT EVER REASON WHY DONT YOU GET A JOB WITH THEM I DONT NEED TO KNOW I GUESS YOU DO. THEY HAVE ALREADY STOPPED SEVERAL ATTACKS ON HOME SOIL. MAYBE WE SHOULD DO IT THE WAY YOU WOULD SIT DOWN AND DRINK SOME TEA AND TALK OVER THE TABLE WITH THEM.GET REAL DUDE THEY WOULD RATHER CHOP YOUR HEAD OFF THEN LOOK AT YOUR PIN HEAD.YES I WILL GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.(GOV) WHATS HAPPENED HERE SINCE 9/11 I SAY WATER BOARD THE HELL OUT OF THEM WUSSY BOY IF IT SAVES AMER. LIFES.WHY DONT YOU JUST VENTURE OVER THERE FOR A LITTLE VACATION AND EMAIL ME BACK AND TELL ME HOW IT WAS.

Why not try working with something that I actually said, rather than creating a fictional tea party to insult me? Perhaps because you are not up to the task of actually addressing what I am saying?

There have been attacks stopped, but none to my knowledge where torture was necessary in order to gain the appropriate information. Certainly there was no torture in stopping the attacks on JFK Airport, Fort Dix, or the Sears Tower. What attacks exactly have been stopped due to information we gained through torture? Be Specific. While you are at it,what attacks were stopped by the use of waterboarding in particular?

Care to address any of this in specific with real information? Or would you rather to continue blathering senseless rhetoric driven by fear?

I love to go waterboarding now if you want to go crap sliding that's in the back 40 around Washington DC you people really need to get a life and quite playing in the shit.