Ruling requires abortion statements

Way back when it told a few truths, Planned Parenthood used to warn about "choice":

*Plan Your Children*(Planned Parenthood, 1963) states:“An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun.� The pamphlet also informs the reader that “[abortion] is dangerous to your life and health. it may make you sterile, so that when you want a child you cannot have it ...[in comparison][b]irth control merely postpones the beginning of life.�

And if Stoesz is intent on introducing science into the equation, how about showing women who's really in their womb, as these two Harvard Medical School professors of radiology have done: http://www.yourdevelopingbaby.com/sampleChapt...

Obviously, pregnant women need that statement. If it wasn't read to them, I'm sure they would think they had a uterus full of puppies.

C Hamilton wrote:

Obviously, pregnant women need that statement. If it wasn't read to them, I'm sure they would think they had a uterus full of puppies.

..........Grow Up & Think”.........

C Hamilton wrote:

Obviously, pregnant women need that statement. If it wasn't read to them, I'm sure they would think they had a uterus full of puppies.

In Minnesota, the abortuaries provide as little information as they can get away with, even to the point of regularly flouting the Minnesota Women's Right to Know Law (which Planned Parenthood fought for nine years). I presume Planned Parenthood's disinformation, rather no-information, campaign is waged with the same earnestness in South Dakota as it is in Minnesota.

Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life has a link to the Women's Right to Know website on its site. Planned Parenthood of Minnesota/North & South Dakota doesn't. Imagine my surprise.

"Unfortunately women rarely receive the information that the law requires. Abortion centers give them inaccurate information about the risks and alternatives available to them. That is why the legislature enacted the Woman's Right to Know law.(WRTK)

"The law requires that those considering abortion be given a free booklet from the Minnesota Department of Health (MDH) that accurately describes the stages of their pregnancy, specific risks that could affect their health, their ability to bear children in the future and even some risks to their lives. It also tells them about alternatives and practical help that the state provides.

"Unfortunately, even with the law in place, most abortion clinics do not provide the free information claiming they can give the same information over the phone in 5 minutes or less. That is just not true. Some even charge for photo copies of the booklet that is available to them for free. If you are considering abortion be sure to ask for the free MDH booklet or at least visit the MDH Web site to get the information."

Consistent wrote:

<quoted text>
..........Grow Up & Think”.........

So you do believe that women are stupid enough not to know the contents of the uterus? I give us more credit than that.

C Hamilton wrote:

<quoted text>So you do believe that women are stupid enough not to know the contents of the uterus? I give us more credit than that.

.........“Grow Up & Think”.........

You bring nothing to the Table, Especialy when compared to the knowledge of Didaskolos(?).
Your emotion based arguments show you to be incapable of providing anything but old useless rhetoric that was useless 40 years ago. But you have the audacity to use a quote that includes the word "think".

You need to .........“Grow Up & Think”.........

Didaskalos wrote:

<quoted text>
In Minnesota, the abortuaries provide as little information as they can get away with, even to the point of regularly flouting the Minnesota Women's Right to Know Law (which Planned Parenthood fought for nine years). I presume Planned Parenthood's disinformation, rather no-information, campaign is waged with the same earnestness in South Dakota as it is in Minnesota.
Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life has a link to the Women's Right to Know website on its site. Planned Parenthood of Minnesota/North & South Dakota doesn't. Imagine my surprise.
"Unfortunately women rarely receive the information that the law requires. Abortion centers give them inaccurate information about the risks and alternatives available to them. That is why the legislature enacted the Woman's Right to Know law.(WRTK)
"The law requires that those considering abortion be given a free booklet from the Minnesota Department of Health (MDH) that accurately describes the stages of their pregnancy, specific risks that could affect their health, their ability to bear children in the future and even some risks to their lives. It also tells them about alternatives and practical help that the state provides.
"Unfortunately, even with the law in place, most abortion clinics do not provide the free information claiming they can give the same information over the phone in 5 minutes or less. That is just not true. Some even charge for photo copies of the booklet that is available to them for free. If you are considering abortion be sure to ask for the free MDH booklet or at least visit the MDH Web site to get the information."

Out of curiosity, does the Minnesota Right To Know law also include giving pregnant women who plan to give birth information on the risks to their health of doing so -- especially the risks associated with teen pregnancy?

C Hamilton wrote:

<quoted text>Out of curiosity, does the Minnesota Right To Know law also include giving pregnant women who plan to give birth information on the risks to their health of doing so -- especially the risks associated with teen pregnancy?

Take a look: http://www.health.state.mn.us/wrtk/handbook.h...

It's a marvel of evenhandedness: risks of childbirth, risks of abortion, pictures of life in the womb, descriptions of fetal development, and many more.

So why did (and why does) Planned Parenthood fight women's right to know laws? Why did Planned Parenthood years ago circulate a memo to its clinics to turn the ultrasound screen away from women having an ultrasound so that they couldn't see it?(Public scrutiny and pressure forced the discontinuance of that practice.)

And why has Planned Parenthood changed its tune on the reality of life in the womb? In the 1960s, Dr. Mary Calderone, former director of Planned Parenthood, stated that “abortion is the taking of a human life”; Dr. Alan Guttmacher, former president of Planned Parenthood and founder of the Guttmacher Institute, the research affiliate of Planned Parenthood, has stated “fertilization has then taken place; a baby has been conceived.”

Consistent wrote:

<quoted text>
.........“Grow Up & Think”.........
You bring nothing to the Table, Especialy when compared to the knowledge of Didaskolos(?).
Your emotion based arguments show you to be incapable of providing anything but old useless rhetoric that was useless 40 years ago. But you have the audacity to use a quote that includes the word "think".
You need to .........“Grow Up & Think”.........

It's empty rhetoric, indeed, but it's not useless. It's a wakeup call to women, letting them know who wants to provide them with facts and pictures and who wants to keep feeding them slogans that are decades old.

It's one reason Planned Parenthood clinics are closing. Check out these statistics:

1987 816 "health" clinics
1990 879 "health" clinics
1995 938 "health" clinics
2000 875 "health" clinics
2005 825 "health" clinics
2006 817 "health" clinics

That's a reduction of 121 PP clinics in 11 years, an average of 11 "health" clinics per year.

Didaskalos wrote:

<quoted text>
It's empty rhetoric, indeed, but it's not useless. It's a wakeup call to women, letting them know who wants to provide them with facts and pictures and who wants to keep feeding them slogans that are decades old.
It's one reason Planned Parenthood clinics are closing. Check out these statistics:
1987 816 "health" clinics
1990 879 "health" clinics
1995 938 "health" clinics
2000 875 "health" clinics
2005 825 "health" clinics
2006 817 "health" clinics
That's a reduction of 121 PP clinics in 11 years, an average of 11 "health" clinics per year.

I dont think you should be using TOPIX to lobby the public in order to keep your employer in business.
I would feel this way about any employee lobbying, not just the business of "Death" that you feed your belly on.

Consistent wrote:

<quoted text>
I dont think you should be using TOPIX to lobby the public in order to keep your employer in business.
I would feel this way about any employee lobbying, not just the business of "Death" that you feed your belly on.

You're addressing Planned Parenthood acolytes, right? Remember, this is Didaskalos the pro-lifer (who's never set foot in a PP clinic, thank God) to whom you're responding.

If there was any confusion about my last post, I was celebrating pro-lifers' zeal in promoting facts/pictures/statistics as one reason for the steady decline in PP clinics. It's PP acolytes who keep fighting informed consent with slogans that were old 20 years ago.

Consistent wrote:

<quoted text>
I dont think you should be using TOPIX to lobby the public in order to keep your employer in business.
I would feel this way about any employee lobbying, not just the business of "Death" that you feed your belly on.

i cliked the wron post sorry

As someone who has always supported a woman's right to choose, I don't see any problem with the clinic giving its clients additional information. If a few change their minds -- FINE. What is wrong with that?

Pro-Choice is NOT pro-abortion, although some attempt to equate the two. While I support the right to choose, I have rarely supported making the choice to abort. In my most recent involvement with a case, I strongly urged carrying to term and entering into an open adoption. I placed the young lady in contact with resources designed to enable continuing the pregnancy to term. Sadly, she went ahead with "the procedure," as the clinic euphemistically labels it. No, it was not PP.

Although the clinic showed a video about "the procedure," they still referred to the fetus as "pregnancy tissue," which I find abominable. Makes it sound like pulling a tooth or removing a wart.

Madman wrote:

As someone who has always supported a woman's right to choose, I don't see any problem with the clinic giving its clients additional information. If a few change their minds -- FINE. What is wrong with that?
Pro-Choice is NOT pro-abortion, although some attempt to equate the two. While I support the right to choose, I have rarely supported making the choice to abort. In my most recent involvement with a case, I strongly urged carrying to term and entering into an open adoption. I placed the young lady in contact with resources designed to enable continuing the pregnancy to term. Sadly, she went ahead with "the procedure," as the clinic euphemistically labels it. No, it was not PP.
Although the clinic showed a video about "the procedure," they still referred to the fetus as "pregnancy tissue," which I find abominable. Makes it sound like pulling a tooth or removing a wart.

In your case, pro-choice is not pro-abortion, certainly. Many pro-lifers are "pro-choice" to the extent they'd accept laws that permit abortion in cases of rape, incest, and when the life of the mother is actually imperiled.

I'd contend, though, that pro-choicers who would advocate abortion at any time and for any reason (even partial-birth abortion of viable babies) are, by definition, pro-abortion, as are pro-choicers who fight against parental notification laws and Women's Right to Know laws.

Didaskalos wrote:

<quoted text>
In your case, pro-choice is not pro-abortion, certainly. Many pro-lifers are "pro-choice" to the extent they'd accept laws that permit abortion in cases of rape, incest, and when the life of the mother is actually imperiled.
I'd contend, though, that pro-choicers who would advocate abortion at any time and for any reason (even partial-birth abortion of viable babies) are, by definition, pro-abortion, as are pro-choicers who fight against parental notification laws and Women's Right to Know laws.

I've only ever seen posts from one person that fits that description.

The rest of us are pro-choice.

We do not advocate for abortion at all, just for each woman's right to decide what to do about her own pregnany, no matter which choice she makes. There is a difference that too many PLEs refuse to acknowledge.

You won't find too many who agree with abortion at any time for any reason. Yes, I do agree with the D&X procedure, when that is the only way to save the life of the woman. And I agree with all post-viability procedures when they will save her life/health, or if something is very wrong with the fetus anyway. I know that this is a determination best made by a medical professional on a case by case basis, and not flippin politicians ahead of time. And no, I DON'T believe that the gov't has any right to tell a dying woman that she MUST sacrifice her life. So sue me.

We agree with a woman's right to know. I, being a woman, contend that these women already know what they are pregnant with, and what abortion will do. What we object to is the gov't forcing doctors to give an emotional speech designed to coerce a woman into not making a choice that the PLM doesn't like, on pain of the threat of prosecution. At the time 98.7% of all abortions occur, it is NOT a whole being. Shoot, they won't require pharmacists to fill a legal prescription written by a doctor if their beliefs are against birth control, but they want to force doctors to tell a woman something that they know that science has not determined, but is really a statement that is religious in nature.

The ONLY reason you will find (if, that is, you take the time to ask instead of assuming) that any of us object to the parental notification/consent laws is that there are too many girls who will be abused, beaten, thrown out on the street, and even killed. THEY are the ones the laws are for. Girls who don't have to worry about that are less likely to take advantage of those laws. And just BTW, parental notification/consent laws are in place already in the majority of states. And DO you realize that notification does NOT mean consent? They only have to let the parents know, but that doesn't give the parents time to STOP it.

Bitner wrote:

<quoted text>
You won't find too many who agree with abortion at any time for any reason.... We agree with a woman's right to know. I, being a woman, contend that these women already know what they are pregnant with, and what abortion will do.... At the time 98.7% of all abortions occur, it is NOT a whole being.... And just BTW, parental notification/consent laws are in place already in the majority of states..

Barack Obama does.As an Illinois state senator, Barack Obama twice opposed legislation to define as "persons" babies who survive late-term abortions. Mr. Obama said in a speech on the Illinois Senate floor that he could not accept that babies wholly emerged from their mother's wombs are "persons," and thus deserving of equal protection under the Constitution's 14th Amendment.

A federal version on the same legislation passed the Senate unanimously and with the support of all but 15 members of the House. Mr. Obama has compiled a 100% lifetime "pro-choice" voting record, including votes against any and all restrictions on late-term abortions and parental involvement in teenagers' abortions. And he promises, "the first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act," which would overturn hundreds of federal and state laws limiting abortion, including the federal ban on partial-birth abortion and bans on public funding of abortion. All this explains why the National Abortion Rights Action League voted unanimously to endorse Mr. Obama over Hillary Clinton, as did abortion activist Frances Kissling, who called Mrs. Clinton "not radical enough on abortion."

It's nice that all of "us" agree with Women's Right to Know laws. All except Planned Parenthood and NARAL, which fought every one of them, even the very evenhanded, nonpartisan Minnesota law. I posted the MN Dept. of Health WRTK guidelines earlier. And no, many women don't know what their baby looks like at 8 weeks or 12 weeks or whenever. Go to any website like afterabortion.org and you'll see numberous testimonies like these:
"I came across your website because I wanted to know what went on while I was unconscious during my abortion. I was appalled to find out the things that I did and to see the pictures that I saw. the doctor who did my abortion told me that my baby was just a piece of tissue at 8 weeks old and I believed him. I was 15 years old, I thought that I was making the right decision. I was wrong and now I feel so bad. Patients should be told of what the doctors are doing. If I had know that they were going to rip my precious baby into a bunch of different part I would never have done what I did. If someone had told me or if I had seen this website earlier I would not have had an abortion."

**"I am a 20 year old woman who had an abortion 3 yrs. ago. I think it is appalling how these clinics lie. I was nine weeks pregnant and they told me my baby looked like was a piece of skin, that is had no heartbeat, or feeling. I had a friend recommend me to this website and I know its murder, and I know that if the clinic would actually tell the truth, there wouldn't be so many abortions. There is so much pain involved, not only physically, but mentally as well. That clinic never told me that I would feel bad about this later, or that it reduces my chance of having kids, or about the risks of breast cancer. All they wanted was my money. They don't care about these women, all they care about is getting that abortion done, and getting the money."

A "whole" being? It's a human being, possessing everything it will ever need to continue to its next stage of life: a safe environment, time, and nourishment. If those are cut off from any of us, we'd perish just as the preborn baby does in an abortion.

Parental notification laws are in place, true. Then why were all of them fought by Planned Parenthood and NARAL?

Bitner wrote:

<quoted text>

You won't find too many who agree with abortion at any time for any reason.... We agree with a woman's right to know. I, being a woman, contend that these women already know what they are pregnant with, and what abortion will do.... At the time 98.7% of all abortions occur, it is NOT a whole being.... And just BTW, parental notification/consent laws are in place already in the majority of states..

Barack Obama does.As an Illinois state senator, Barack Obama twice opposed legislation to define as "persons" babies who survive late-term abortions. Mr. Obama said in a speech on the Illinois Senate floor that he could not accept that babies wholly emerged from their mother's wombs are "persons," and thus deserving of equal protection under the Constitution's 14th Amendment.
A federal version on the same legislation passed the Senate unanimously and with the support of all but 15 members of the House. Mr. Obama has compiled a 100% lifetime "pro-choice" voting record, including votes against any and all restrictions on late-term abortions and parental involvement in teenagers' abortions. And he promises, "the first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act," which would overturn hundreds of federal and state laws limiting abortion, including the federal ban on partial-birth abortion and bans on public funding of abortion. All this explains why the National Abortion Rights Action League voted unanimously to endorse Mr. Obama over Hillary Clinton, as did abortion activist Frances Kissling, who called Mrs. Clinton "not radical enough on abortion."

It's nice that all of "us" agree with Women's Right to Know laws. All except Planned Parenthood and NARAL, which fought every one of them, even the very evenhanded, nonpartisan Minnesota. I posted the MN Dept. of Health WRTK guidelines earlier. And no, many women don't know what their baby looks like at 8 weeks or 12 weeks or whenever. Go to any website like afterabortion.org and you'll see numberous testimonies like these:

"I came across your website because I wanted to know what went on while I was unconscious during my abortion. I was appalled to find out the things that I did and to see the pictures that I saw. the doctor who did my abortion told me that my baby was just a piece of tissue at 8 weeks old and I believed him. I was 15 years old, I thought that I was making the right decision. I was wrong and now I feel so bad. Patients should be told of what the doctors are doing. If I had know that they were going to rip my precious baby into a bunch of different part I would never have done what I did. If someone had told me or if I had seen this website earlier I would not have had an abortion."

**"I am a 20 year old woman who had an abortion 3 yrs. ago. I think it is appalling how these clinics lie. I was nine weeks pregnant and they told me my baby looked like was a piece of skin, that is had no heartbeat, or feeling. I had a friend recommend me to this website and I know its murder, and I know that if the clinic would actually tell the truth, there wouldn't be so many abortions. There is so much pain involved, not only physically, but mentally as well. That clinic never told me that I would feel bad about this later, or that it reduces my chance of having kids, or about the risks of breast cancer. All they wanted was my money. They don't care about these women, all they care about is getting that abortion done, and getting the money."

A "whole" being? It's a human being, possessing everything it will ever need to continue to its next stage of life: a safe environment, time, and nourishment. If those are cut off from any of us, we'd perish just as the preborn baby does in an abortion.

Parental notification laws are in place, true. Then why were all of them fought by Planned Parenthood?

A few more of the typical, numerous, readily accessible stories of women who did not know and were not informed:

"I sought counseling at Planned Parenthood, they counseled me to have an abortion, they never brought up the word adoption. I wished they would have, abortion was the only choice given to me."

"The counselor at Planned Parenthood made it all sound so easy and I was convinced that abortion was my only alternative."

"I became active in the pro-choice movement (first as a legislative worker, then as a clinic escort). I suppose in retrospect I was trying to justify what I had done. Then in 1991 I became pregnant with my son. I went for prenatal visits and was horrified to see a real baby on the Ultrasound screen, and also to hear his heartbeat on the Doptone device! I had not realized the heartbeat started so soon; they never told me anything about that at Planned Parenthood, when my parents brought me for the abortion."

"They never explained anything about the procedure or let me see the baby. They gave me no alternatives and never mentioned how killing my baby would affect me emotionally."
-Mae Abbott

"Planned Parenthood is a big lie! What happened to me was not counseling, it was a plan to make money off my mother and myself by lying and tricking us at a very vulnerable time."--Michele Slaffey

"I was deceived because I was not told the truth about what an abortion means to the life of an unborn baby. I was not told that there were other options. I was not told that at 10 weeks (which is when I had my abortion) my child was already fully formed. I was made to believe that I was doing something that was as natural as going to the dentist for teeth cleaning.--Stephanie Williams

"Let me tell you what happened to me in 1986. I was 18, and I had missed my period, so I went to a clinic that performs abortions for a pregnancy test. Well, the test was positive, so a "counselor" came in to talk with me. I put the word counselor in quotation marks because a better word to describe this person would be SALESPERSON. What this woman did was to tell me how difficult it would be to raise a child on my own, how my life would be over, how I would never be able to get child support from the father, yadda yadda yadda. Then I asked her about adoption. She then proceeded to tell me about the HORRORS of adoption. How could I carry a child for 9 months and then just give it up? She claimed lots of insurance companies don't pay for prenatal care if you plan on adoption (a LIE). My child would hate me forever for not wanting it. How would I ever know the child would go to a good family? She told me stories about people who adopted children so that they would have a "servant", and that these children were mistreated like dogs. She told me this as if it was commonplace! Then this monster of a woman proceeded to tell me, a scared, pregnant girl, that the only real option in a case like mine was abortion. She told me the baby was not a baby at all, but just a mass of cells, incapable of feeling and not human. I was 8 weeks pregnant. Perhaps I should mention that I had become pregnant from a worker in the mental health unit where I had spent some time for attempting suicide. This woman knew this, and preyed on my vulnerability. I left with an appointment for an abortion for 3 days later."

Anent the discussion on parental notification and informed choice, a few interesting poll results:

"The poll was designed to gauge the climate towards abortion rights among the U.S. population. Conducted by pollster John Zogby, 30,117 respondents in 48 states were questioned in the poll March 10-14, 2006. The results are considered accurate to within +/- 0.6 percentage points.

"The results showed the majority of respondents indicated a pro-life position. On 16 of the 20 questions relating to abortion, the clear majority of answers were anti-abortion.

"When questioned on whether or not abortion ends a human life, almost two thirds of Americans said yes (59%). Only 29% said abortion did not end a human life.

"A majority said they agree with laws restricting access to abortion. Over half (55%) support parental notification laws for girls 18 years old and younger. Over two thirds (69%) agree with parental notification laws for girls 16 and under. Only 36% and 23% disagree, respectively.

"55% agree with required counselling about other options before a mother has an abortion, and 56% agree with a 24-hour waiting period.

"Over two thirds of Americans (69%) say the federal government should not fund abortions in other countries. 21% disagree. Just over half (51%) do not think the federal or state government should finance abortions for poor women.

"64% want a law that would see a person who killed a pregnant woman charged with two murders. Only 23% do not agree.

"Almost all Americans (86%) say abortion because of the sex of the baby should be illegal. 10% disagree."

The law of the land, of course, is that abortion is legal for any reason, at any time during the full pregnancy. NARAL and Planned Parenthood fight every restriction on abortion, every law on notification, and every law on informed choice. And in so doing, they're clearly out of touch with a majority of of the citizenry.

Didaskalos wrote:

<quoted text>
Parental notification laws are in place, true. Then why were all of them fought by Planned Parenthood and NARAL?

Quote edited for space.

Now, I was referring to the forum when I said 'you won't find many....'. I did this because you implied that we on here fit your description of 'pro-abortion', and this is not true. What Obama thinks doesn't interest me at all.
I hate to tell you this, but an ultrasound pic won't change that. I had one with my last pregnancy, at 9 weeks, and what I saw looked like a white raisin. All that could be seen was the amniotic sac. I don't know what the PLM is smoking, but they seem to think that there will be a fully developed baby there, waving an arm, and carrying a sign that says 'please don't kill me, mommy'. Also, there is the fact that an ultrasound is done anyway, and a woman is already perfectly free to ask to see it.
Why does anyone object to these things? Because they are unecessary, and will place a burden on the woman, especially uninsured women. Or, as in the case of the SD 'speech', it's not medically accurate, and is merely based on religious beliefs that don't apply to everyone.
But, if the info is accurate, and the procedure necessary, if there is a safety net in place for those minors to tell their parents and not be abused or killed, I have no objection. And you'd be hard pressed to find any posters here who do.