Letter to the editor: War's costs include lost opportunities

Libby, Carol, Dave: It is good to know there are still individuals that can think for themselves, your posts are usually correct and informative. I can't believe the worthless posts from Lil john and Ctlist(who can't see anything correctly)where all they do is call names and criticize other people sources. I have never seen two people that know so little ,say so much. Everyone knows Bush has told dozens of lies , on purpose. If you go back through these posts, many people have documented many lies but these two numb-skulls continue to believe and support all of the LIES.

Call them like I see them wrote:

<quoted text>
If you are a better person then that why do you falsely attack GW Bush.
You are correct, I will not drag you to the gutter. You have already lowered yourself into the sewer with your lies.
YOu want to act like it is me doing the attack, you hypocrite.
You are a liar.

You can try all you want to bait me, but it won't work.

George Bush is a public figure and has placed himself in the position he is in. I greatly regret that he has told so many falsehoods, but he has. In the run-up to the Iraq invasion he an d his administration told almost 1000 confirmed falsehoods. I'm not even going to try to prove it to you because the blind cannot see.

I talk like it is you doing the attacking because you are directly attacking me. You are not calling someone else names, you are calling me names. That means you are attacking me. You are not attacking a famous democrat, you are attacking me. That's ok, I forgive you, and hope that God will grant you more grace in your future.

You should address issues more and call people names less. You'll influence more people that way.

Call them like I see them wrote:

<quoted text>
I just talked personally to a soldier who was home on a 30 day leave and planning to go back and I was told about what a great job the US is doing in Iraq. The soldier said you bleeding heart leftist should see hoe the Iraqi people are actually reacting to the US presence instead of what the media is portraying for the weak minds.
I much rather hear from one personally then what the networks single out for your benefit.

When you say that 'the networks' are giving us a slanted view of the war, do you include Fox News in that?

Dave wrote:

<quoted text>
If I put a kitten in the middle of the road, can I say I did't kill it, the car that ran over it did?
Bush put troops in harms way in an il-planned war that had nothing to do with our security interests.
The war about oil was to make big money for big oil. That as about the only true "Mission Accomplished".
Look at the disappearing Middle Class. Look at "real" incomes declining the past 3 1/2 years. Now combine that with higher pricing.
Higher prices caused by massive deficit spending - weakening the US dollar.
Middle class - got a whopping $300 tax credit easily eaten up by the higher prices & higher Local taxes. Meanewhile those making over $200,000 raked in huige tax cut savings well outvaluing the higher prices.
Yes, people vote against their own economic good as evident by the yoyos who voted for Bush even as he ran this country into the ground. Look at the religious right idiots who voted to save marriage from the evil gay people instead of voting for the good of their country.
Bush vetod health care for children. Great morals there - vetod a bill to give access to thousands of children because, as Bush said it, it might take money from private insurance companies. Insurance companies over children. Great morals there.

I love how you keep proving my point!!! You just can't think for yourself when you vote!! It's the Republican's fault BLAH BLAH BLAH!! Me, on the other hand, I vote by THINKING instead of by party! Yes, I do tend to lean towards the Republican side; BUT it's probably a 60/40 split! I don't think GW is the the greatest...I do think he's made some mistakes!! Unlike you...I can say stuff like that because I think about the issues from both points of view.

A kitten compared to people doesn't come close to rebuking what I said. With that logic; why did Clinton send troops to Serbia? Did they pose a threat to the USA? NO! But they did to our friends and allies. Same thing with Iraq...

It's a $600 tax credit, not $300. Unless...your single, then you are correct. As far as what people pay in taxes; as an example 10% of 50,000 is $5,000 and 10% of $500,000 is $50,000...but it's still 10%...taxes are based on percentages, so people like you fall for the illusion that the rich don't pay is much...yes they do by percentage!!!

So people that don't think like you are stupid?? Wow...that's really keeping and open mind on things!

I'm curious to see what would happen to this country, or the world if we all just put our own morals to the side and let everybody do what they believed?

The Bill was vetoed because of the Pork the Congress added to a Bill that was supposed to be about healthcare for people. BUT...it was not just the Democrats that added those items...some Republicans voted to add them also. Of course, you can't see that because all Republican's are EVIL to you and Democrat's are RIGHTOUS to you!!!

Please...

GOTCHA wrote:

Libby, Carol, Dave: It is good to know there are still individuals that can think for themselves, your posts are usually correct and informative. I can't believe the worthless posts from Lil john and Ctlist(who can't see anything correctly)where all they do is call names and criticize other people sources. I have never seen two people that know so little ,say so much. Everyone knows Bush has told dozens of lies , on purpose. If you go back through these posts, many people have documented many lies but these two numb-skulls continue to believe and support all of the LIES.

They can't think for themselves...they are only repeating what the liberal media reports!! Bush has made some major mistakes...but to say that he has "LIED ON PURPOSE" is a stupid remark! So, whenever somebody says something that may turn out to not be true...they lie? Okay, so whenever you got/get an answer wrong on something...YOU LIE!!!!!!! You are EVIL!!!!! It's your FAULT!!!!!

I'm sure you won't be able to comprehend my point...

Don't know what daily kos is. If I am there I would never know it.

When I worked for Frank Wolf in Northern Virginia, it was volunteer only. I worked on his campaign because of his efforts to get a woman out of jail.

Now I know why Lil John, Ctlist, x-cburg res, Jack et all are so frightened. It is getting scary out there, over 900,000 people are on the terrorist watch-list, all trying to get them. That's a whole lot of evil doers after them. Even Nobel Peace Prize winner Nelson Mandella is on the list.

Now I understand why they want to do away with that pesky Bill of Rights -- there are over 900,000 names on US soil on a U.S. government terrorist watch list.

"At the current rate of growth, the U.S. watch lists will contain a million records by July. If there were a million terrorists in this country, our cities would be in ruins" said Barry Steinhardt, director Technology and Liberty Program. "The absurd bloating of the terrorist watch lists is yet another example of how incompetence by our security apparatus threatens our rights without offering any real security."
A separate entity, the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC), keeps a list of all names believed to belong to terrorists linked to international terror groups. That list, which was at 100,000 names in 2003, grew to 465,000 names by last June.The FBI takes that list and adds to it a new collection of names which belong to U.S. persons believed to be domestic terrorists: people who have links to terrorism but not to any international group.

It appears the FBI may be adding tens of thousands of names belonging to U.S. persons it suspects of being domestic terrorists -- people who have no known ties to international terrorist organizations or for that matter, any other organization.

X Chambersburg Resident wrote:

<quoted text>
I love how you keep proving my point!!! You just can't think for yourself when you vote!! It's the Republican's fault BLAH BLAH BLAH!! Me, on the other hand, I vote by THINKING instead of by party! Yes, I do tend to lean towards the Republican side; BUT it's probably a 60/40 split! I don't think GW is the the greatest...I do think he's made some mistakes!! Unlike you...I can say stuff like that because I think about the issues from both points of view.
A kitten compared to people doesn't come close to rebuking what I said. With that logic; why did Clinton send troops to Serbia? Did they pose a threat to the USA? NO! But they did to our friends and allies. Same thing with Iraq...
It's a $600 tax credit, not $300. Unless...your single, then you are correct. As far as what people pay in taxes; as an example 10% of 50,000 is $5,000 and 10% of $500,000 is $50,000...but it's still 10%...taxes are based on percentages, so people like you fall for the illusion that the rich don't pay is much...yes they do by percentage!!!
So people that don't think like you are stupid?? Wow...that's really keeping and open mind on things!
I'm curious to see what would happen to this country, or the world if we all just put our own morals to the side and let everybody do what they believed?
The Bill was vetoed because of the Pork the Congress added to a Bill that was supposed to be about healthcare for people. BUT...it was not just the Democrats that added those items...some Republicans voted to add them also. Of course, you can't see that because all Republican's are EVIL to you and Democrat's are RIGHTOUS to you!!!
Please...

I listen to various news programs & read the news online on various news sites. I take what I see & hear and make decisions. Ummm - I think that is called THINKING FOR YOURSELF! Or is it only those with your views that have the sole claim to thought.

Secondly, how can you look at todays economic distsater and the Iraq quagmire and come to any other conclusion that George W Bush frickin sucks as a President. He couldn't have done ot all by himself & he had co-horts - Frist & Hassert & the Republicans in Congress who did nothing to stop the a$$hole.

Thus it is not blind hatred or blind distrust, it is all earned.

And in this mess, I also include all the yeahoos who are part of the 60% of Republicans that approve of Bush.

So its not Blah, blah, blah but the facts. The Republican party gave up on its trait of being fiscally responsible & became a bunch of money grubbin' neocons mixed in with a bunch of radical rightwing religious nutjobs.

Clinton sent troops to stop ethnic cleansing - something we should be doing in Darfur if we weren't stuck in Bush's oil war.

Childrens Healthcare veto - that was Bush's quote- because of insurance companies - not mine.

GOTCHA wrote:

Now I know why Lil John, Ctlist, x-cburg res, Jack et all are so frightened. It is getting scary out there, over 900,000 people are on the terrorist watch-list, all trying to get them. That's a whole lot of evil doers after them. Even Nobel Peace Prize winner Nelson Mandella is on the list.
Now I understand why they want to do away with that pesky Bill of Rights -- there are over 900,000 names on US soil on a U.S. government terrorist watch list.
"At the current rate of growth, the U.S. watch lists will contain a million records by July. If there were a million terrorists in this country, our cities would be in ruins" said Barry Steinhardt, director Technology and Liberty Program. "The absurd bloating of the terrorist watch lists is yet another example of how incompetence by our security apparatus threatens our rights without offering any real security."
A separate entity, the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC), keeps a list of all names believed to belong to terrorists linked to international terror groups. That list, which was at 100,000 names in 2003, grew to 465,000 names by last June.The FBI takes that list and adds to it a new collection of names which belong to U.S. persons believed to be domestic terrorists: people who have links to terrorism but not to any international group.
It appears the FBI may be adding tens of thousands of names belonging to U.S. persons it suspects of being domestic terrorists -- people who have no known ties to international terrorist organizations or for that matter, any other organization.

Way to go!!!! Change the topic when you have been shown the truth!!

But...once again...a source being presented to prove your point is from a LIBERAL MEDIA source! A source that thinks only like you!!!

Look, we can keep going in circles...all of us...and I'm not going to change your way of thinking and you are not going to change mine. I just wish people would LISTEN to both sides of an argument and then make a conclusion based on ALL the facts and not just the facts that fit everyone's own agenda. Then, an argument based on RESPECT can happen instead of name calling and lack of respect. Yes, I've gotten a little testy, but it's because of people that don't do their research and are only willing to listen to people with the same thought process as their own...it doesn't work!!!

Gotcha, McCarthyism is still alive and well, in Some minds, and Some of them post here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Peace

Dave wrote:

<quoted text>
I listen to various news programs & read the news online on various news sites. I take what I see & hear and make decisions. Ummm - I think that is called THINKING FOR YOURSELF! Or is it only those with your views that have the sole claim to thought.
Secondly, how can you look at todays economic distsater and the Iraq quagmire and come to any other conclusion that George W Bush frickin sucks as a President. He couldn't have done ot all by himself & he had co-horts - Frist & Hassert & the Republicans in Congress who did nothing to stop the a$$hole.
Thus it is not blind hatred or blind distrust, it is all earned.
And in this mess, I also include all the yeahoos who are part of the 60% of Republicans that approve of Bush.
So its not Blah, blah, blah but the facts. The Republican party gave up on its trait of being fiscally responsible & became a bunch of money grubbin' neocons mixed in with a bunch of radical rightwing religious nutjobs.
Clinton sent troops to stop ethnic cleansing - something we should be doing in Darfur if we weren't stuck in Bush's oil war.
Childrens Healthcare veto - that was Bush's quote- because of insurance companies - not mine.

AGAIN! Your post is nothing but Republicans EVIL!!!

I'm not of the frame of mind that the Republicans are always right...the Democrats are always wrong...that's moronic! But all I see in your posts are that the Republicans are the root of ALL bad in this country...that's why you're posts have no validity in my opinion. The economy SUCKS! The Republicans have not helped...but either have the Democrats. They're are external sources that effect the economy also...like private industry. The government doesn't control it all.

Bush's comments about the insurance companies went on to say that the cost of the Bill being proposed would cause healthcare to become unaffordable for more people than it would help. So, you've proven again that you can't look at the big picture and try and take/add things out of a quote to fit your own agenda.

X Chambersburg Resident wrote:

<quoted text>
Way to go!!!! Change the topic when you have been shown the truth!!
But...once again...a source being presented to prove your point is from a LIBERAL MEDIA source! A source that thinks only like you!!!
Look, we can keep going in circles...all of us...and I'm not going to change your way of thinking and you are not going to change mine. I just wish people would LISTEN to both sides of an argument and then make a conclusion based on ALL the facts and not just the facts that fit everyone's own agenda. Then, an argument based on RESPECT can happen instead of name calling and lack of respect. Yes, I've gotten a little testy, but it's because of people that don't do their research and are only willing to listen to people with the same thought process as their own...it doesn't work!!!

Why do we need to LISTEN to the republican side? We are living with the fallout of the republican side. We don't have to wonder what would happen if republican ideals were put into action. We know! We are where we are today because of republican ideals. We are in the shitter.

X Chambersburg Resident wrote:

<quoted text>
Way to go!!!! Change the topic when you have been shown the truth!!
But...once again...a source being presented to prove your point is from a LIBERAL MEDIA source! A source that thinks only like you!!!
Look, we can keep going in circles...all of us...and I'm not going to change your way of thinking and you are not going to change mine. I just wish people would LISTEN to both sides of an argument and then make a conclusion based on ALL the facts and not just the facts that fit everyone's own agenda. Then, an argument based on RESPECT can happen instead of name calling and lack of respect. Yes, I've gotten a little testy, but it's because of people that don't do their research and are only willing to listen to people with the same thought process as their own...it doesn't work!!!

When you use so many exclamation points you come off as kinda frantic. I'm not attacking you but saying it in the spirit of "that shirt clashes with those pants".

X Chambersburg Resident wrote:

<quoted text>
AGAIN! Your post is nothing but Republicans EVIL!!!
I'm not of the frame of mind that the Republicans are always right...the Democrats are always wrong...that's moronic! But all I see in your posts are that the Republicans are the root of ALL bad in this country...that's why you're posts have no validity in my opinion. The economy SUCKS! The Republicans have not helped...but either have the Democrats. They're are external sources that effect the economy also...like private industry. The government doesn't control it all.
Bush's comments about the insurance companies went on to say that the cost of the Bill being proposed would cause healthcare to become unaffordable for more people than it would help. So, you've proven again that you can't look at the big picture and try and take/add things out of a quote to fit your own agenda.

First, I am clearly talking about Bush, Cheney, Frist , Hassert & the Republican congress since 2000. Before 2000, the Republic Party was a good party. Trust worthy. Responsible.

Before, you ranted that Bush vetoed children's healthcare because of pork - now you almost agreed with me that the reason was to protect the Insurance Companies. It would do nothing to make other policies more expensive. It was all in taking some money, maybe, possibly from private insurance. Bush threw the children under the bus for corporate interests.

What has Bush done about healthcare & rising insurance costs - N O T H I N G. Who does that help? Insurance C O R P O R A T I O N S.

Rising healthcare is probvably driving more jobs overseas than out corporate tax schedules. Far more. But what did Bush do aboutr it? N O T H I N G.

OR;
Lie #6 - Weapons of Mass Destruction - Bush insisted that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction but his "evidence" consisted mostly of forged documents, plagiarized student papers, and vague satellite photos. The United Nations was on the ground in Iraq and could find nothing. After extensive searches Bush was finally forced to admit that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction.
Lie #7 - Mobile Weapons Labs - Bush and his team repeatedly claimed that Iraq possessed mobile weapons labs capable of producing anthrax. Colin Powell showed diagrams of them at his speech before the UN to justify invading Iraq. These claims originated from Curveball, a discredited Iraqi informer who fed Bush many of the stories related to WMD. On May 29, 2003, two small trailers matching the description were found in Iraq. A team of bio-weapons experts examined the trailers and concluded they were simply designed to produce hydrogen for weather balloons. But, for over a year, Bush claimed these were part of Iraq's bio-weapons program. The expert's report was suppressed and only recently made public.[WashPost][ABC]
Bush wanted so much to convince people of the need to invade Iraq that the White House set up a secret team in the Pentagon to create evidence. The Office of Special Plans routinely rewrote the CIA's intelligence estimates on Iraq's weapons programs, removing caveats such as "likely," "probably" and "may" as a way of depicting the country as an imminent threat. They also used unreliable sources to create reports that ultimately proved to be false.[Mother Jones][New Yorker][Wikipedia]
By lying to Congress, Bush violated US Laws related to Fraud and False Statements, Title 18, Chapter 47, Section 1001 and Conspiracy to Defraud the United States, Title 18, Chapter 19, Section 371.
Resources
"Inquiry into the Decision to Invade Iraq" by the Cooperative History Research Commons (Excellent!)
Chronology of Illegal War on impeachforpeace.org
"Timeline for Iraq War" on Mother Jones
Timeline of Iraq Lies by Jodin Morey
Senate Intelligence Committee Reports from September 8, 2006
"Postwar Findings about Iraq's WMD and Links to Terrorism and How They Compare to Prewar Assessments" (PDF 6.9 MB)
"The Use by the Intelligence COmmunity of Intelligence Provided by the Iraqi National Congress" (PDF 9.3 MB)
"Key Judgments" from Rockefeller website
CBS News Report
"IraqOnTheRecord" - database of 237 lies by administration officials about Iraq, compiled by Congressman Henry Waxman. http://democrats.reform.house.gov/IraqOnTheRe...
'CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES: Misrepresenting the Truth in Order to Sell a War is A “High Crime”' by Elizabeth de la Vega
"Ex-CIA official: Bush administration misused Iraq intelligence", statements by Paul R. Pillar, CNN, 2/10/06
"Bush and Iraq: Mass Media, Mass Ignorance" by Jeff Cohen
List of Lies and News Links from BuzzFlash
"Key Bush Intelligence Briefing Kept From Hill Panel" 11/23/05, by Murray Waas
Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States - Title 18, Chapter 19, Section 371
Fraud and False Statements - Title 18, Chapter 47, Section 1001
Disarm Saddam Hussein, the White House's own summary of lies about Iraq.
"U.S.'Almost All Wrong' on Weapons Report on Iraq Contradicts Bush Administration Claims" By Dana Priest and Walter Pincus Washington Post Staff Writers, 10/7/04
Would you like more?

X Chambersburg Resident wrote:

<quoted text>
Way to go!!!! Change the topic when you have been shown the truth!!......s as their own...it doesn't work!!!

I've see a lot of people take things one direction or another. It's a part of normal conversation, I think. I think I recall you doing it.

Even if one does not agree with GOTCHA or Dave either one, I think they deserve credit for putting forth a lot of effort. So many people come here and just swiftboat away. Those that try to actually converse deserve a bit of respect.

Florian wrote:

<quoted text>
I've see a lot of people take things one direction or another. It's a part of normal conversation, I think. I think I recall you doing it.
Even if one does not agree with GOTCHA or Dave either one, I think they deserve credit for putting forth a lot of effort. So many people come here and just swiftboat away. Those that try to actually converse deserve a bit of respect.

You're right...I have leaned one way or the other...but not all the time. The people on here that have no credibility (in my opinion) are the one's that blame the Republicans for EVERYTHING, and claim that the Democrats are the countries savior!!

Dave wrote:

<quoted text>
First, I am clearly talking about Bush, Cheney, Frist , Hassert & the Republican congress since 2000. Before 2000, the Republic Party was a good party. Trust worthy. Responsible.
Before, you ranted that Bush vetoed children's healthcare because of pork - now you almost agreed with me that the reason was to protect the Insurance Companies. It would do nothing to make other policies more expensive. It was all in taking some money, maybe, possibly from private insurance. Bush threw the children under the bus for corporate interests.
What has Bush done about healthcare & rising insurance costs - N O T H I N G. Who does that help? Insurance C O R P O R A T I O N S.
Rising healthcare is probvably driving more jobs overseas than out corporate tax schedules. Far more. But what did Bush do aboutr it? N O T H I N G.

I didn't agree with you that it would help the insurance corporations at all. It would have caused insurance corporations to raise the cost of health care for all...which would have hurt more people than it helped. I'm not saying the either option was great...just that the veto was the lesser of two evils. Clinton did nothing...Bush 1...did nothing...Reagan did nothing. My point being you can't blame JUST Bush...they all are to blame...

GOTCHA wrote:

OR;
Lie #6 - Weapons of Mass Destruction - Bush insisted that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction but his "evidence" consisted mostly of forged documents, plagiarized student papers, and vague satellite photos. The United Nations was on the ground in Iraq and could find nothing. After extensive searches Bush was finally forced to admit that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction.
Lie #7 - Mobile Weapons Labs - Bush and his team repeatedly claimed that Iraq possessed mobile weapons labs capable of producing anthrax. Colin Powell showed diagrams of them at his speech before the UN to justify invading Iraq. These claims originated from Curveball, a discredited Iraqi informer who fed Bush many of the stories related to WMD. On May 29, 2003, two small trailers matching the description were found in Iraq. A team of bio-weapons experts examined the trailers and concluded they were simply designed to produce hydrogen for weather balloons. But, for over a year, Bush claimed these were part of Iraq's bio-weapons program. The expert's report was suppressed and only recently made public.[WashPost][ABC]
Bush wanted so much to convince people of the need to invade Iraq that the White House set up a secret team in the Pentagon to create evidence. The Office of Special Plans routinely rewrote the CIA's intelligence estimates on Iraq's weapons programs, removing caveats such as "likely," "probably" and "may" as a way of depicting the country as an imminent threat. They also used unreliable sources to create reports that ultimately proved to be false.[Mother Jones][New Yorker][Wikipedia]
By lying to Congress, Bush violated US Laws related to Fraud and False Statements, Title 18, Chapter 47, Section 1001 and Conspiracy to Defraud the United States, Title 18, Chapter 19, Section 371.
Resources
"Inquiry into the Decision to Invade Iraq" by the Cooperative History Research Commons (Excellent!)
Chronology of Illegal War on impeachforpeace.org
"Timeline for Iraq War" on Mother Jones
Timeline of Iraq Lies by Jodin Morey
Senate Intelligence Committee Reports from September 8, 2006
"Postwar Findings about Iraq's WMD and Links to Terrorism and How They Compare to Prewar Assessments" (PDF 6.9 MB)
"The Use by the Intelligence COmmunity of Intelligence Provided by the Iraqi National Congress" (PDF 9.3 MB)
"Key Judgments" from Rockefeller website
CBS News Report
"IraqOnTheRecord" - database of 237 lies by administration officials about Iraq, compiled by Congressman Henry Waxman. http://democrats.reform.house.gov/IraqOnTheRe...
'CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES: Misrepresenting the Truth in Order to Sell a War is A “High Crime”' by Elizabeth de la Vega
"Ex-CIA official: Bush administration misused Iraq intelligence", statements by Paul R. Pillar, CNN, 2/10/06
"Bush and Iraq: Mass Media, Mass Ignorance" by Jeff Cohen
List of Lies and News Links from BuzzFlash
"Key Bush Intelligence Briefing Kept From Hill Panel" 11/23/05, by Murray Waas
Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States - Title 18, Chapter 19, Section 371
Fraud and False Statements - Title 18, Chapter 47, Section 1001
Disarm Saddam Hussein, the White House's own summary of lies about Iraq.
"U.S.'Almost All Wrong' on Weapons Report on Iraq Contradicts Bush Administration Claims" By Dana Priest and Walter Pincus Washington Post Staff Writers, 10/7/04
Would you like more?

I never said that I agreed with Bush's decisions...but to say that he lies all the time? Well, using that line of thinking when someone feeds you information, I guess every time you are wrong then you lie...

Again...all I see/hear is "Republican EVIL, BAD, etc. etc. etc."

X Chambersburg Resident wrote:

<quoted text>
You?????????? A State Senator??????????
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA!
That's the way to try and get the conservative vote...or even people on the fence!!!!
You?????????? A State Senator??????????
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA!

I'm not after the racist sociopathic killer vote. I'm after the I-don't-want-to-live-in-a-fasc ist-police-state-ruled-by-homi cidal-maniacs vote.