BARACK OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE: Suit contesting Obama's citizen...

The U.S. Supreme Court will consider Friday whether to take up a lawsuit challenging President-elect Barack Obama 's U.S. citizenship, a continuation of a New Jersey case embraced by some opponents of Obama's ... Read more
rider

Ishpeming, MI

#88714 Jul 2, 2012
Ellen wrote:
Starting with this: "A Kenyan birth certificate presented by Lucas D. Smith, that has never been proven to be a fake or fraudulent birth certificate."
Well let's see. It uses USA date formats (month/day/year) and not the British formats used in Kenya (day/month/year). It misspells the names of some of the officials.
More importantly, Lucas D. Smith is a convicted felon, one of whose crimes was--wait for it--forgery. Of course, this convicted felon could be telling the truth. But it is highly unlikely. Why so?
Because Lucas D. Smith has refused to prove that Lucas D. Smith ever went to Kenya. His claim was that he got the birth certificate in Mombasa Kenya. For that to have been true, he would have had to have gone to Mombasa Kenya. All that he would have to do would be to show his passport with a Kenya stamp on it, and that would give some sign that Lucas D. Smith--the convicted felon--was in this case telling the truth. But Lucas D. Smith has refused to show his passport with a Kenya stamp on it. Do you suppose that if he really had a passport with a Kenya stamp on it he would do that???
Like the birther sites that made up the claim that Obama's Kenyan grandmother said that he was born in Kenya (when she said repeatedly that he was born in Hawaii), Luca D. Smith is telling a lie.
9/11 CONSPIRACY: BUSH-NAZI CRIME FAMILY HISTORY - YouTube
Dec 4, 2007 ... with this kind of family history, is it any surprise that fascism is creeping slowly
into America and our freedoms are being eroded daily?

- 151k -

“WestieLover”

Since: Apr 12

The city that I reside

#88715 Jul 2, 2012
Ellen wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, the names are not listed, only the numbers:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/06/authen...
However, there is a breakdown of the numbers. Of the 21, only seven were US citizens. That means that Obama's mother would have had only a one in seven chance of being one of those. Obama could be listed either as a citizen (if you believe that his mother was old enough to confer citizenship) or as an alien. But either way he would have had to have a US travel document--either a visa or being added to his mother's US passport---to get to the USA. That document would still be on file under applications for travel documents in Kenya in 1961, and no one has found any such thing.(And the McCain and Hillary campaigns surely tried to find it.)
The Kenyan government has said officially that Obama was not born in Kenya (and his Kenyan grandmother never said that he was born in Kenya), and there is certainly no evidence that Obama's mother was there in 1961. In contrast, there is a birth certificate for Obama, confirmed by the officials, confirmed by Index Data, confirmed by the birth notices in the Hawaii newspapers (which at the time were sent to the papers only by the DOH) that shows that Obama was born in Hawaii.
Obama was Not born of two American citizens, only one. So he does not meet the criteria for VP/President per the Constitution (plural...citizens). He would be eligible to run for a House seat or Senate seat provided he was a naturalized American. And there is the issue of an Indonesian adoption. According to the California Assembly records when he was attending Occidental College, Obama was enrolled as Barry Soetoro, a foreign student from Indonesia, who registered as such and obtained a grant from the CA Assembly as a foreign student from Indonesia.

“WestieLover”

Since: Apr 12

The city that I reside

#88719 Jul 2, 2012
Ellen wrote:
<quoted text>
It also says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
Yet birthers try to make people believe that the writers of the Constitution did not believe that. Birthers claim that the meaning of Natural Born Citizen excludes the US-born children of foreigners. In other words, they hold that the writers of the Constitution did not believe that the US-born children of foreigners were equal to the US born children of US citizens where eligibility for the presidency is concerned.
Well, if the writers of the Constitution had said in the Constitution or in any other article or letter that that was what they believed, it would of course be true. But they DIDN'T.
Liberal poppycock. The Framers spoke and wrote at great length on the matter. Based on their concept of eligibility, Obama's daughters would meet the criteria for VP/President, but not their father.

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

Bristol, CT

#88720 Jul 2, 2012
Cancer on the pResidency wrote:
<quoted text>
You must be devoid of common sense!
How many parents must one have to have been born of citizen parents?
The answer is clearly TWO!
This remains a FACT that your post did not change.
The court in Minor makes no mention of "one" having citizen parents.

The court said that "all children born in country of parents who were its citizens" became citizens. "All children born in a country" is a class of individuals, not one individual. Tacky has struggled with this simple concept for over three years. No wonder he couldn't graduate high school without special ed. When a characteristic is predicated of a class, it is proper to use the plural. Hence, "on parents' weekend, students went to the football game with their parents".(Of course, this doesn't mean that every student went to the football game with both parents.)

Similarly, when the boys brought their dates to the dance, it doesn't mean, "Two girls for every boy", the Beach Boys notwithstanding.

Learn English, puh-lease!
Ellen wrote:
<quoted text>
Answer: But it does not say that being born of citizen parents is required. It does not say that being born in the USA is required, and it certainly does not say that BOTH are required.
All that it says, duh, is that if you fulfill both of the criteria needed to be a Natural Born Citizen, then without question you are a Natural Born Citizen. But that does not mean that both are necessary, only that if you have both you fulfill all the possible criteria. One of the criteria may be sufficient, it does not say.
But it certainly does not say that both are required, and it certainly does not say that citizen parents are required.
And, the Wong Kim Ark ruling, which followed Minor vs. Happersett and hence would have overturned it, if this quotation were really a ruling (which it isn't) said quite clearly that the meaning of Natural Born Citizen comes from the common law, and that it includes every child born in the USA except for the children of foreign diplomats.
Ellen

Arlington, MA

#88721 Jul 2, 2012
Conservative girl wrote:
<quoted text>Obama was Not born of two American citizens, only one. So he does not meet the criteria for VP/President per the Constitution (plural...citizens). He would be eligible to run for a House seat or Senate seat provided he was a naturalized American. And there is the issue of an Indonesian adoption. According to the California Assembly records when he was attending Occidental College, Obama was enrolled as Barry Soetoro, a foreign student from Indonesia, who registered as such and obtained a grant from the CA Assembly as a foreign student from Indonesia.
Who says that two citizen parents, or even one citizen parent, is required?????

“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government, i.e. in its territorial limits, or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.”— Black’s Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition

“What is a natural born citizen? Clearly, someone born within the United States or one of its territories is a natural born citizen.”(Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on OCTOBER 5, 2004)--Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-UT).

“Under the longstanding English common-law principle of jus soli, persons born within the territory of the sovereign (other than children of enemy aliens or foreign diplomats) are citizens from birth. Thus, those persons born within the United States are "natural born citizens" and eligible to be President. Much less certain, however, is whether children born abroad of United States citizens are "natural born citizens" eligible to serve as President ..."---- Edwin Meese, et al, THE HERITAGE GUIDE TO THE CONSTITUTION (2005)[Edwin Meese was Ronald Reagan’s attorney general, and the Heritage Foundation is a well-known Conservative organization.]

Oh, and Florida's decision was released today. That makes it five state courts and one federal court, all of which have ruled that the meaning of Natural Born Citizen was defined in the Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court case (and several of which said specifically that it was NOT defined in the Minor vs Happersett case) and that that meaning refers to the place of birth, not the parents of a US-born citizen.

“WestieLover”

Since: Apr 12

The city that I reside

#88722 Jul 2, 2012
Ellen wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, the names are not listed, only the numbers:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/06/authen...
However, there is a breakdown of the numbers. Of the 21, only seven were US citizens. That means that Obama's mother would have had only a one in seven chance of being one of those. Obama could be listed either as a citizen (if you believe that his mother was old enough to confer citizenship) or as an alien. But either way he would have had to have a US travel document--either a visa or being added to his mother's US passport---to get to the USA. That document would still be on file under applications for travel documents in Kenya in 1961, and no one has found any such thing.(And the McCain and Hillary campaigns surely tried to find it.)
The Kenyan government has said officially that Obama was not born in Kenya (and his Kenyan grandmother never said that he was born in Kenya), and there is certainly no evidence that Obama's mother was there in 1961. In contrast, there is a birth certificate for Obama, confirmed by the officials, confirmed by Index Data, confirmed by the birth notices in the Hawaii newspapers (which at the time were sent to the papers only by the DOH) that shows that Obama was born in Hawaii.
Ellen you are wrong. Stanley Dunham Obama Soetoro's passport records for this time period was removed from the State Department files in 2008 by an employee of John Brennan who at the time was a campaign advisor to Obama.
Anything embarrassing or problematic was removed from her file. That is why only the renewal is in place. Those files are kept for 100 years per the State Department. And in a letter of reply to a Freedom of Information suit by Mr. Strunk they indicated that the file was missing, and they had no explaination as to why.
This took place when the break-in of the State Department Passport files were accessed on McCain, Clinton, Obama in 2008. Do you not remember Rice's news conference??? This is not the first time that the Democrats have taken government files. I distinctly remember one advisor of Bill Clinton removing records and shredding them.

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

Bristol, CT

#88723 Jul 2, 2012
American Lady wrote:
<quoted text>
IF you can NOT find iT,
you do NOT need to be on this forum
with ADULTS talking about 0's INeligibility!
Original Article
BARACK OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE: Suit contesting Obama's citizenship heads to Supreme Court
Find what? Copy'n'paste spam?

BirfoonLady confirms that she cannot articulate a point as she doesn't know what a point is.
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>
So what's your point?
Do you have a point?
Do you know what a point is?
Would you know it if a point slapped you in the face?
The court made it quite clear that the question presented in Inglis was limited to circumstances "when a revolution occurs" and did not relate to "the broad doctrine of allegiance."
In other words, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH citizenship of persons born in ordinary times.
UR on the wrong page, BirfoonLady.
American Lady

Danville, KY

#88724 Jul 2, 2012
Natural-born citizen

Natural-born citizen is a term used in some countries to describe a certain kind of citizenship in terms of a requirement for eligibility to serve as head of state of a given country. It is mentioned in the United States Constitution as a requirement for the President and Vice President of the US.
==========
George Romney, who ran for the Republican party nomination in 1968, was born in Mexico to U.S. parents. Romney’s grandfather emigrated to Mexico in 1886 with his three wives and children after Utah outlawed polygamy. Romney's parents retained their U.S. citizenship and returned to the United States in 1912. Romney was 32 years old when he arrived in Michigan.
==========
US case law
Although the U.S. Supreme Court has never specifically addressed the meaning of "natural born citizen," there are several Supreme Court decisions that help define citizenship:
Schneider v. Rusk, 377 U.S. 163 (1964): The Court voided a statute that provided that a naturalized citizen should lose his United States citizenship if, following naturalization, he resided continuously for three years in his former homeland. "We start from the premise that the

rights of citizenship of the "native-born" and of the "naturalized" person are of the same dignity and are coextensive.

The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that >>>> *only* <<<< the 'natural born' citizen is *eligible* to be President."

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/nat...
Ellen

Arlington, MA

#88725 Jul 2, 2012
Conservative girl wrote:
<quoted text>Obama was Not born of two American citizens, only one. So he does not meet the criteria for VP/President per the Constitution (plural...citizens). He would be eligible to run for a House seat or Senate seat provided he was a naturalized American. And there is the issue of an Indonesian adoption. According to the California Assembly records when he was attending Occidental College, Obama was enrolled as Barry Soetoro, a foreign student from Indonesia, who registered as such and obtained a grant from the CA Assembly as a foreign student from Indonesia.
Re Indonesian adoption. That was made up by birthers. There isn't a shred of evidence to support it. Yes he used Soertoro's name when he was in Indonesia. That made sense. But no, he never changed his name officially nor was he adopted. You know, if he had been adopted, Soetoro's blood children would have called him "brother"----wouldn' t they. Well, they never have.

Re the idea that Obama was registered as a foreign student. It is you who have made the claim that there is evidence to support this. I dare you to find it. There is none. In fact, the notion of Obama having been registered as a foreign student originally came from an April Fool's article posted on April 1, 2009. Other than this article and the repeating of it by birther sites, there is no evidence that Obama was registered as a foreign student or that his name was at the time Soetoro.

“WestieLover”

Since: Apr 12

The city that I reside

#88726 Jul 2, 2012
Ellen wrote:
<quoted text>
Who says that two citizen parents, or even one citizen parent, is required?????
“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government, i.e. in its territorial limits, or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.”— Black’s Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition
“What is a natural born citizen? Clearly, someone born within the United States or one of its territories is a natural born citizen.”(Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on OCTOBER 5, 2004)--Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-UT).
“Under the longstanding English common-law principle of jus soli, persons born within the territory of the sovereign (other than children of enemy aliens or foreign diplomats) are citizens from birth. Thus, those persons born within the United States are "natural born citizens" and eligible to be President. Much less certain, however, is whether children born abroad of United States citizens are "natural born citizens" eligible to serve as President ..."---- Edwin Meese, et al, THE HERITAGE GUIDE TO THE CONSTITUTION (2005)[Edwin Meese was Ronald Reagan’s attorney general, and the Heritage Foundation is a well-known Conservative organization.]
Oh, and Florida's decision was released today. That makes it five state courts and one federal court, all of which have ruled that the meaning of Natural Born Citizen was defined in the Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court case (and several of which said specifically that it was NOT defined in the Minor vs Happersett case) and that that meaning refers to the place of birth, not the parents of a US-born citizen.
With that logic children of illegals could run for the office. Children of Illegals are 14th Amendment Americans who cannot become President. However, their children (next generation),someday would be natural born American eligible to be VP/President. That was the intention of the Framers to guard against foreign allegiance to another country.
Ellen

Arlington, MA

#88727 Jul 2, 2012
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>
The court in Minor makes no mention of "one" having citizen parents.
The court said that "all children born in country of parents who were its citizens" became citizens. "All children born in a country" is a class of individuals, not one individual. Tacky has struggled with this simple concept for over three years. No wonder he couldn't graduate high school without special ed. When a characteristic is predicated of a class, it is proper to use the plural. Hence, "on parents' weekend, students went to the football game with their parents".(Of course, this doesn't mean that every student went to the football game with both parents.)
Similarly, when the boys brought their dates to the dance, it doesn't mean, "Two girls for every boy", the Beach Boys notwithstanding.
Learn English, puh-lease!
<quoted text>
My point is broader than whether one or two parents are required. I say that the court did not say that ANY parents are required.

What the court actually said was: "At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. "

So, what does that boil down to? It boils down to that if you have both quality A and quality B (birth in the country is A and parents is B) then you are without doubt ("never doubted") a Natural Born Citizen.

But A and B are simply the two possible criteria, birth place and parentage. If you have them both you must logically be a Natural Born Citizen. But that does not say that having just A or just B would not work. It certainly does not say that both are REQUIRED.

It is like saying: "It was never doubted that if you wore both suspenders and a belt you would hold your pants up." Yes, that statement is absolutely true. Who could doubt that if you wear both your pants will be held up? But the statement does NOT say that both are necessary to hold your pants up.

“WestieLover”

Since: Apr 12

The city that I reside

#88728 Jul 2, 2012
Ellen wrote:
<quoted text>
Re Indonesian adoption. That was made up by birthers. There isn't a shred of evidence to support it. Yes he used Soertoro's name when he was in Indonesia. That made sense. But no, he never changed his name officially nor was he adopted. You know, if he had been adopted, Soetoro's blood children would have called him "brother"----wouldn' t they. Well, they never have.
Re the idea that Obama was registered as a foreign student. It is you who have made the claim that there is evidence to support this. I dare you to find it. There is none. In fact, the notion of Obama having been registered as a foreign student originally came from an April Fool's article posted on April 1, 2009. Other than this article and the repeating of it by birther sites, there is no evidence that Obama was registered as a foreign student or that his name was at the time Soetoro.
Sweetie Obama's own sister Maya Ng-Soetoro said he was adopted by her father in Indonesia. Mary Ayers said that she and her husband were financing a foreign student through college. This information she told her Postman of many years. Later that same student came to the Ayers home to thank the Ayers for their help. He met the Postman friend on the property. And Obama told the man why he was their, and even quipped that someday he would be President.

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

Bristol, CT

#88729 Jul 2, 2012
American Lady wrote:
<quoted text>
WE already KNEW that !
Unexpected turn in eligibility case:'Put it on record!'
'This judge can't get out; if he screws around, he's violating law'
Klayman told WND Obama’s lawyers immediately went into a tailspin and filed to have the amendment for declaratory relief stricken, which the judge granted, arguing he wanted to wait to issue a formal decision in the case. ;-)
http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/unexpected-turn-in...
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Judge Terry Lewis cited Minor v. Happersett in his argument explaining that anyone born a citizen within the US is a natural born citizen.

How many years will it take birfoons to read an understand a simple sentence written in straightforward English?
Ellen

Arlington, MA

#88730 Jul 2, 2012
Re: "With that logic children of illegals could run for the office."

Quick question, is a murderer in jail having been convicted of multiple murders but not stripped of his US citizenship by a state eligible to be elected president?

The answer is yes. If a person falls under the criterion of Natural Born Citizen, the fact that you may not like that person does not make her or him ineligible. It simply makes that person one of many whom you would not vote for. So lots of people you do not like or whose parents you do not like are eligible. Hardly shocking, is it?

Since the criterion of Natural Born Citizen status is simply being born in the country, as Meese and Back's Law Dictionary, and the Wong Kim Ark Case, and five state courts and one federal court have stated and ruled, then the children of illegal aliens are Natural Born Citizens---and it is up to you to vote against them if they are nominated.

Re: "That was the intention of the Framers to guard against foreign allegiance to another country. "

Under strict construction principles you are not allowed to make legal rulings based on deduced intent based on a theory of what the founders really wanted. If the writers did not say that the US-born children of foreigners are not eligible, then the writers did not mean that the US-born children of foreigners are not eligible.

The same is a libertarian principle as well. Libertarians hold that you cannot strip someone of a right simply because you think a law or the Constitution would have not wanted that person to have that right. Well, you are thinking of stripping some millions of US-born children of foreigners of their right to be president, and the Constitution does NOT say that they do not have that right.

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

Bristol, CT

#88731 Jul 2, 2012
Grand Birther wrote:
Ellen, birthers have not yet figured out what "necessary" and "sufficient" mean in re: Minor.
Give them another 3.5 years or so.
Regarding parentage, birfoons just don't seem to understand that the question of whether citizen parents are necessary or whether birth alone in the country is sufficient is precisely what the court avoided in Minor, kicking the can down the road to Ark.
Ellen

Arlington, MA

#88732 Jul 2, 2012
Conservative girl wrote:
<quoted text>Sweetie Obama's own sister Maya Ng-Soetoro said he was adopted by her father in Indonesia. Mary Ayers said that she and her husband were financing a foreign student through college. This information she told her Postman of many years. Later that same student came to the Ayers home to thank the Ayers for their help. He met the Postman friend on the property. And Obama told the man why he was their, and even quipped that someday he would be President.
Re: "Sweetie Obama's own sister Maya Ng-Soetoro said he was adopted by her father in Indonesia. "

Answer: No, she didn't.

Re: "Mary Ayers said that she and her husband were financing a foreign student through college. "

Turns out that she said that AFTER Obama had graduated both from college and law school and was already at work at a law firm.

Re: "And Obama told the man why he was their, and even quipped that someday he would be President."

If you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#88733 Jul 2, 2012
Ellen wrote:
<quoted text>
These were merely a few examples, no one else--except for birthers of course---believes Sheriff Joe either. For example, the Conservative Secretary of State of Arizona just allowed Obama on the state ballot after hearing from Hawaii that the birth certificate is accurate. And in Georgia a State Administrative court heard the birther "experts"--and said that he did not believe them because they had no credibility. The ruling then went to the Secretary of State of Georgia, who accepted it. It was then appealed to an appeals court and then to the Supreme Court of Georgia, both of which turned down the appeals, meaning that they found nothing wrong with the ruling.
Soooo, their are a lot of political cowards. What else is knew!
Jacques Ottawa

Saint-hyacinthe, Canada

#88734 Jul 2, 2012
I know birthers will particularly miss me, but am on a brief vacation until this coming Friday. At Mont Tremblant (look it up), and for Rogue, yes, it's in province of Québec amongst those `not nice people. Take care all, the Laurentians are marvels.+
Ellen

Arlington, MA

#88735 Jul 2, 2012
Conservative girl wrote:
<quoted text>Ellen you are wrong. Stanley Dunham Obama Soetoro's passport records for this time period was removed from the State Department files in 2008 by an employee of John Brennan who at the time was a campaign advisor to Obama.
Anything embarrassing or problematic was removed from her file. That is why only the renewal is in place. Those files are kept for 100 years per the State Department. And in a letter of reply to a Freedom of Information suit by Mr. Strunk they indicated that the file was missing, and they had no explaination as to why.
This took place when the break-in of the State Department Passport files were accessed on McCain, Clinton, Obama in 2008. Do you not remember Rice's news conference??? This is not the first time that the Democrats have taken government files. I distinctly remember one advisor of Bill Clinton removing records and shredding them.
Re things being removed from her file. Yes, thousands of documents were removed from thousands of files as a space-saving move in the 1970s, but an application for a US passport for a child in the US Consulate in Kenya would have been filed under "applications for US passports (or applications for changes to US passports" in Kenya in 1961, and that is what Obama would have needed to get to the USA.

If Obama's mother were one of the 21 who came to the USA from Kenya and she had brought her child with her, she would have needed a US travel document---a visa on a foreign passport or Obama being added to her passport---in order to bring him into the USA. The application for that would, as I said, be still on file under applications made for documents in Kenya. And, if it existed, the Bush Administration had eight years in which to find it.

In addition to that, there are also INS files. The way from Kenya to the USA in 1961 was via New York. There were no direct flights, and the INS files in New York in 1961 are not missing, and neither Obama's name or his mothers are on it.

In addition, the officials in Kenya have stated that there is no evidence that Obama was born in Kenya and they have no evidence that Obama's mother arrived there (which they would of course have, since they keep records of arrivals). There has been no evidence that such records have been scrapped or hidden, and there would be because such a thing would be hard to do.

So there is NO evidence of birth in Kenya, and of course it would be highly unlikely due to the distance and the risk of the trip and the fact that Obama's mother would have had to have traveled alone (WND has proven that Obama senior was in Hawaii on August 4). And there is the Hawaii birth certificate, the confirmations of the the facts on it and the Index Data all showing that he was born in Hawaii.
Jacques Ottawa

Saint-hyacinthe, Canada

#88736 Jul 2, 2012
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
<quoted text>
And then you should have no problem telling us who these 21 people are, would you?
And you should have no problem telling me why you said GE jet engines were built in Czech Republic. You have your g.d. nerve asking people for sources. How about who told you that the Supreme court had decided on the first day of deliberations that Obamacare would be defeated? Asked you those two questions several times now, no reply. Just like the other 50, 47 of which there has been no reply.

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