Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

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“I am evolving as fast as I can”

Since: Jan 08

Brooklyn, in Dayton OH now

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#36122
Jul 30, 2012
 
jusathought wrote:
Recently, my grandfather passed away. He and my grandmother were very religious. I myself question the bible and its teachings but do not cast out the belief all together. But as i watched my grandfather die and witnessed my grandmother mourn, i thought to myself....even if i new for sure either way...even if somehow a time machine were invented and we could travel back to see proof of either theory...i could not tell her that what she belived at that moment was false. viewing her, i watched what was real about religion, and i wondered how todays methods of druging, binge drinking and suicides of an athiest population, was any better than the way she handled her loss. I am still torn on the subject. but hey, its just a thought
You need to look at your data again. Suicide rates among atheists are lower than nearly every religious persuasion. A few years back several schools did suicide rate studies, the one I recall was on soldiers returning from duty in Afghanistan and Iraq. The two groups with the lowest suicide rates were Evangelical Christians and Athiests. Higher rates were for all other religious groups.

Drug use and Drunkedness (using arrest rates) are even lower for Athiests. Just look at the prison populations for that information. Interesting, isn't it. Took about 5 minutes to find half-a-dozen studies with similar results over the past 20 years.

A study in 2004 found that atheists also ranked lower in domestic violence.

Do you want to discuss child abuse? You really won't like that one at all!
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#36123
Jul 30, 2012
 

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nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>Or maybe a lightning gun.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18630622
Oh geez, can you imagine what kind of static you would get from being too near that? Good thing my kithuahua is hairless! Yeeowch!
xD
Yeah, with that one I'd definitely be worried about a misfire!

http://gifs.gifbin.com/042011/reverse-1304071...

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#36124
Jul 30, 2012
 
Knightmare wrote:
<quoted text>
But why would that be possible and not God?
Why is it possible for there to be life on other planets, but not possible for god to exist?

First off, who says that god is impossible? Highly improbable, yes! But impossible, no.

Second, the building blocks for life are quite abundant in the universe! We find them everywhere.

Third, a god, not so much. In fact, there is no evidence of any gods. There is belief and faith, nothing more.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

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#36125
Jul 30, 2012
 
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>Or maybe a lightning gun.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18630622
Oh geez, can you imagine what kind of static you would get from being too near that? Good thing my kithuahua is hairless! Yeeowch!
xD
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Since: Jun 11

Topanga

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#36126
Jul 30, 2012
 
lemons wrote:
I believe in butt plugs!!!
Better watch out...you living in Kansas and all.

Since: Jun 12

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#36127
Jul 30, 2012
 

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15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't tell me what I believe.
You are the one who made the suggestion.
You're dodging already. We are talking about quantum level events,
As it relates to the Big Bang? Me thinks you are trying to dodge cause by zooming into quantum events which is relatively new and few understand.
not courts of law.
Negatives are proven in courts of law. Live with it. Negatives can be legally proven.
You don't even know what a soul is, Biblically speaking.
You don't know what i know.
jusathought

Edgewood, MD

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#36128
Jul 30, 2012
 

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TedHOhio wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to look at your data again. Suicide rates among atheists are lower than nearly every religious persuasion. A few years back several schools did suicide rate studies, the one I recall was on soldiers returning from duty in Afghanistan and Iraq. The two groups with the lowest suicide rates were Evangelical Christians and Athiests. Higher rates were for all other religious groups.
Drug use and Drunkedness (using arrest rates) are even lower for Athiests. Just look at the prison populations for that information. Interesting, isn't it. Took about 5 minutes to find half-a-dozen studies with similar results over the past 20 years.
A study in 2004 found that atheists also ranked lower in domestic violence.
Do you want to discuss child abuse? You really won't like that one at all!
why exactly wouldnt i like about that topic? never once did i say i was religious. i belong to the "i dont know fellowship". what i was trying to get across to most thinking human beings, was that given the chance, even if i had hard evidence there was no god... i couldnt approach someone holding on to an idea that helps them in their struggle, and tell them it was false. only an asshole would do that.

Since: Jun 12

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#36129
Jul 30, 2012
 

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Gillette wrote:
It's actually YOU who is in a box, the fundamentalist Christian Box. The rest of us are out here trying to coax you to come out and enjoy the fresh air.
Been where you are at.
Truth and morality are SUBJECTIVE things.
Is that true? If it is true then it self refutes.
They matter to anyone who holds their own understandings of what is "true" and what is "moral."
What was true and moral for Hitler is not the same as what was true and moral for Ghandi. Both are equally valid by your definition.
And our human sense of altruism is something that has come down through the millennia through evolution -- altruistic helpful people (who don't kill each other or steal from each other) tend to live longer, happier lives and reproduced more over the millennia, thus spreading the combination of genes that lead to altruism.
There is no reason to help the weak if non theistic evolution is true. There is no reason to accept our sense of right and wrong as nothing more than activity in the brain. Like everything else, Brain exhaust.
Only later on did humanity choose to assign their ideas about goodness and evil to an imaginary Being in the Sky.
But you know better? Actually it is an invisible all powerful Being capable of speaking everything into existence and much more.

Since: Jun 12

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#36130
Jul 30, 2012
 

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The Dude wrote:
There are numerous passages which describe the Earth just as I laid out. You're simply just another run of the mill non-literalist Biblical literalist.
So you take those passages literally? Learn how to read ancient literature.

Since: Jun 12

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#36131
Jul 30, 2012
 

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The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
That's your belief. God is a cause without cause.
Uncaused cause. Yes. Outside time and space since these had a beginning at the big bang. Get this through your head. Only life produces life.
You do because you're a hypocrite.
Confess your own sins.
KJV

Sioux City, IA

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#36132
Jul 30, 2012
 

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Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>On average atheists are much more moral than theists. The prisons of the U.S. have very few atheists, much less than the percentage of the general population of the U.S. The more atheistic a European country is the lower its crime, abortion, and divorce rate. Atheists know when something is right or wrong, they don't have to run to a book to see if an act is right or wrong.
" The prisons of the U.S. have very few atheists"

That's because they enter prison as atheist but convert because they think it will help them make parole.

"To show that atheists are morally better than Christians, some atheists claim that less than one percent of imprisoned Americans are atheist, even though atheists represent 10% of the population. Such statistics are either made up or based on a questionable 1925 study. In truth,“the segment of the prison population which self-identifies as non-religious is approximately twice as large as found in the general population.”

http://commonsenseatheism.com/...

“Maccullochella macquariensis”

Since: May 08

Melbourne, Australia

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#36133
Jul 30, 2012
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Negatives are proven all the time in courts of law by testimony. If you want to believe you are an effect absent a cause then be my guest. You already believe your rights come from men with no souls.
Well, actually what happens is that propositions are DISPROVEN. For example the prosecution alleges Joe Blow did something and the defence disproves that assertion by providing evidence that he could not have done it because these three people saw him somewhere else at the time, security footage shows him at the other place, phone records indicate he was at the other location etc, etc...

This is not proving a negative, it is disproving a positive, not the same thing at all and importantly in science this is exactly the sort of thing that scientists look for all the time. A scientific hypothesis or theory makes certain predictions and these are tested. If the test agrees with the idea although it is support for the theory/hypothesis it is not PROOF, because some other data may always exist, not known about just yet, that would disprove the idea. OTOH, if the test fails, depending on just how and why, it may well be the end of the hypothesis or theory.

The quantum nature of the basic fabric of the universe has been well established. Many events occur that cannot be individually predicted - IOW, they are non-causal - for example radioactive decay, Brownian motion. These things can and do effect things at the macro level. That you are uncomfortable with this is bad luck for you, but it has no effect on reality which is not bound by what you believe.
KJV

Sioux City, IA

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#36134
Jul 30, 2012
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>What, exactly, do you mean by the word 'explosion'? For the Big Bang, nothing is moving *through* space. It is space itself that is expanding. Furthermore, for an explosion, there is a boundary between the internal turbulent gases and the outside. For the Big Bang, the whole of space is filled; there *is* not 'outside' that it is expanding into.

[QUOTE]How do you account for the singularity expanding when the gravitational pull had to be the strongest ever, billions and billions of times stronger then that of a huge black hole?
"

It is always a balance between the strength of gravity and the speed of expansion. Strictly speaking, we can only talk sensibly about 'after' the singularity. And after it, there is always expansion; initially *very* fast and driven by characteristics of scalar bosons.
The facts are this singularity having gravity of unheard of strength could not just start expanding! Impossible. As soon as the laws of physics take hold like one billionth of a second after the big bang then gravity would have held or pulled this singularity back together and stopped time again.

Science deals with facts - them are the facts.

Pre big bang singularity and then the big bang just could not have happened.

Common physic laws prove this.

Your science doesn't know if it's coming or going. Science needs to stick to the facts and not make up this crap that just could not have happened.
KJV

Sioux City, IA

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#36135
Jul 30, 2012
 

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Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>Ummm, did you look,*at all*, at the qualifications of the author of that piece?

Does he have a doctorate in physics or astronomy? No.

Does he have *any* kind of doctorate? No.

Does he have a master's degree in physics or astronomy? No.

Does he have *any* kind of masters? No.

What *does* he have? A bachelor's degree. In physics or astronomy? No.

In creative writing.

Now, aren't you ashamed of yourself for not bothering to see if the author was actually qualified?
Your science PHD means nothing, your science is full of quacks.

The facts are this singularity having gravity of unheard of strength could not just start expanding! Impossible. As soon as the laws of physics take hold like one billionth of a second after the big bang then gravity would have held or pulled this singularity back together and stopped time again.

Science deals with facts - them are the facts and science is ignoring those facts.

Pre big bang singularity and then the big bang just could not have happened.

Common physic laws prove this.

Your science doesn't know if it's coming or going. Science needs to stick to the facts and not make up this crap that just could not have happened.
KJV

Sioux City, IA

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#36136
Jul 30, 2012
 

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thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>“Scientists have unearthed an ancient city (In India) where evidence shows an atomic blast dating back thousands of years, from 8,000 to 12,000 years, destroyed most of the buildings and probably a half-million people. One researcher estimates that the nuclear bomb used was about the size of the ones dropped on Japan in 1945.” http://rense.com/general3/8000.htm
Ya you go ahead a believe that.
KJV

Sioux City, IA

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#36137
Jul 30, 2012
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text>Quantum Mechanics does not alter cause and effect at macro levels. You seem to be printing quantum mechanics had something to do with the Big Bang. The big bang effected everything. I think you guys get away with these things because nobody really understands what you are talking about. Operate in a fog. Like i say. It is a matter of trust and folks like you have not earned it. There is no reason to trust anything non theists have to say when it comes to origins. Quantum Mechanics not a causal theory. If these things happen in space/time then that is quite hard to accept.
From Nova:

"For decades, every attempt to describe the force of gravity in the same language as the other forces—the language of quantum mechanics—has met with disaster

S. JAMES GATES, JR.: You try to put those two pieces of mathematics together, they do not coexist peacefully.

S. JAMES GATES, JR.: The laws of nature are supposed to apply everywhere. So if Einstein's laws are supposed to apply everywhere, and the laws of quantum mechanics are supposed to apply everywhere, well you can't have two separate everywheres.

RIGHT SIDE BRIAN GREENE: In the years since, physics split into two separate camps: one that uses general relativity to study big and heavy objects, things like stars, galaxies and the universe as a whole...

LEFT SIDE BRIAN GREENE:...and another that uses quantum mechanics to study the tiniest of objects, like atoms and particles. This has been kind of like having two families that just cannot get along and never talk to each other...

LEFT SIDE BRIAN GREENE: There just seemed to be no way to combine quantum mechanics...

RIGHT SIDE BRIAN GREENE:...and general relativity in a single theory that could describe the universe on all scales.

So here's the question: if you're trying to figure out what happens in the depths of a black hole, where an entire star is crushed to a tiny speck, do you use general relativity because the star is incredibly heavy or quantum mechanics because it's incredibly tiny?

Well, that's the problem. Since the center of a black hole is both tiny and heavy, you can't avoid using both theories at the same time. And when we try to put the two theories together in the realm of black holes, they conflict. It breaks down. They give nonsensical predictions. And the universe is not nonsensical; it's got to make sense.
KJV

Sioux City, IA

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#36138
Jul 30, 2012
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text>Quantum Mechanics does not alter cause and effect at macro levels. You seem to be printing quantum mechanics had something to do with the Big Bang. The big bang effected everything. I think you guys get away with these things because nobody really understands what you are talking about. Operate in a fog. Like i say. It is a matter of trust and folks like you have not earned it. There is no reason to trust anything non theists have to say when it comes to origins. Quantum Mechanics not a causal theory. If these things happen in space/time then that is quite hard to accept.
BRIAN GREENE: It's a little known secret but for more than half a century a dark cloud has been looming over modern science. Here's the problem: our understanding of the universe is based on two separate theories. One is Einstein's general theory of relativity—that's a way of understanding the biggest things in the universe, things like stars and galaxies. But the littlest things in the universe, atoms and subatomic particles, play by an entirely different set of rules called, "quantum Mechanics"

These two sets of rules are each incredibly accurate in their own domain but whenever we try to combine them, to solve some of the deepest mysteries in the universe, disaster strikes.

Take the beginning of the universe, the "big bang." At that instant a tiny nugget erupted violently. Over the next 14 billion years the universe expanded and cooled into the stars, galaxies and planets we see today. But if we run the cosmic film in reverse, everything that's now rushing apart comes back together, so the universe gets smaller, hotter and denser as we head back to the beginning of time.

As we reach the big bang, when the universe was both enormously heavy and incredibly tiny, our projector jams. Our two laws of physics, when combined, break down.
KJV

Sioux City, IA

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#36139
Jul 30, 2012
 

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Knightmare wrote:
Is it possible that there are other lifeforms in the universe?
Totally Possible.

If God chose to create other life.
KJV

Sioux City, IA

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#36140
Jul 30, 2012
 

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Knightmare wrote:
<quoted text>But why would that be possible and not God?
God is not only possible but true.
God does exist.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

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#36141
Jul 30, 2012
 
KJV wrote:
<quoted text>
From Nova:
"For decades, every attempt to describe the force of gravity in the same language as the other forces—the language of quantum mechanics—has met with disaster
S. JAMES GATES, JR.: You try to put those two pieces of mathematics together, they do not coexist peacefully.
S. JAMES GATES, JR.: The laws of nature are supposed to apply everywhere. So if Einstein's laws are supposed to apply everywhere, and the laws of quantum mechanics are supposed to apply everywhere, well you can't have two separate everywheres.
RIGHT SIDE BRIAN GREENE: In the years since, physics split into two separate camps: one that uses general relativity to study big and heavy objects, things like stars, galaxies and the universe as a whole...
LEFT SIDE BRIAN GREENE:...and another that uses quantum mechanics to study the tiniest of objects, like atoms and particles. This has been kind of like having two families that just cannot get along and never talk to each other...
LEFT SIDE BRIAN GREENE: There just seemed to be no way to combine quantum mechanics...
RIGHT SIDE BRIAN GREENE:...and general relativity in a single theory that could describe the universe on all scales.
So here's the question: if you're trying to figure out what happens in the depths of a black hole, where an entire star is crushed to a tiny speck, do you use general relativity because the star is incredibly heavy or quantum mechanics because it's incredibly tiny?
Well, that's the problem. Since the center of a black hole is both tiny and heavy, you can't avoid using both theories at the same time. And when we try to put the two theories together in the realm of black holes, they conflict. It breaks down. They give nonsensical predictions. And the universe is not nonsensical; it's got to make sense.
Why does someone who believes in a nonsensical god quote Brian Greene saying the universe has to make sense?

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