Former Marine decries trial in civilian court

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Zydeco wrote:

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If I go to four, five, or six news sources around the world, which I can certainly do thanks to the internet, and I read essentially the same story, then I'm fairly certain that the story is accurate. If I see it on TV, I am far less so because television is highly biased (right and left). In this case, I read articles form AP, AFP, al-Arab, Reuters, and BBC. They all said essentially the same thing.

Zydeco wrote:

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If I go to four, five, or six news sources around the world, which I can certainly do thanks to the internet, and I read essentially the same story, then I'm fairly certain that the story is accurate. If I see it on TV, I am far less so because television is highly biased (right and left). In this case, I read articles form AP, AFP, al-Arab, Reuters, and BBC. They all said essentially the same thing.

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WaltBennett wrote:

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Unfortunately, your point is void. The military only learned of these assertions through another man's confession during a CIA interview.
The fact that the military pursued him in civilian court is an indication that they would have pursued charges against him even if he was still active duty.
You and I agree on the second part; he should at least have a choice.

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Dinah wrote:

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I'm an army wife too. Sorry. I never looked on it that way. Our experiences are NOTHING in comparrison to men and women in combat. Sure we had to do without our mates for months on end, sure we had to adjust when our mates got stationed in a foreign country, and sure we had to hold the fort until the mate got home. But that's part of being married, yes?

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Dinah wrote:

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Besides, the problem with the media today is what is commonly known as the "spin cycle". They don't just post facts anymore and let the people make up their own minds. They often "spin" stories either for lack of anything better to print that day, OR to manipulate public opinion; which they seem to be good at. THAT'S scary.

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Dinah wrote:

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The facts these people get are from first hand sources AND OTHER respected textbooks on law.
Not all info can be acquired on line and not all that is online is accurate.

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Zydeco wrote:

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So you're saying that they have read up on military justice and the federal laws that concern this case and that they have directly interviewed the persons involved? Or are they getting them second, third, fourth, or xth hand (friend of a friend of a friend).
Basically, we're all in the dark about this case as to the actual facts.
However, Nazario IS being tried in Federal court for allegedly violating a Federal law that concerns crimes allegedly committed by US citizens while in the service of the military. I understand the concerns that people have regarding having ordinary civilians decide the intent of actions committed in times of combat stress. However, don't you want to see justice done? If this man killed or had killed disarmed detainees in his charge, isn't that murder? If you had a loved one captured and executed, wouldn't you want the killers brought to swift justice?

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Zydeco wrote:

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So you're saying that they have read up on military justice and the federal laws that concern this case and that they have directly interviewed the persons involved? Or are they getting them second, third, fourth, or xth hand (friend of a friend of a friend).
Basically, we're all in the dark about this case as to the actual facts.
However, Nazario IS being tried in Federal court for allegedly violating a Federal law that concerns crimes allegedly committed by US citizens while in the service of the military. I understand the concerns that people have regarding having ordinary civilians decide the intent of actions committed in times of combat stress. However, don't you want to see justice done? If this man killed or had killed disarmed detainees in his charge, isn't that murder? If you had a loved one captured and executed, wouldn't you want the killers brought to swift justice?

Dinah wrote:

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You seem to be knowledgable about this sort of thing. Isn't there something in our laws about being tried for the same offense twice?

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Tobie1108 wrote:

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First of all, this has been going on since the war started. Justice would be to bring down our entire government then. They are the ones that gives the orders. So, if you feel you need to blame someone for this, start at the top. This soldier was left to hang by our government as usual.

Tobie1108 wrote:

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Just so you know, the military did know about this from day one. They gave the orders, he carried them out. If you are not in the military it is something you would not understand.

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Concerned Black Citizen wrote:

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And as usual it is those at the bottom who gets the shaft. Do you think most enlisted personnel, especially an E-1, E-2, E-3 or E-4 or their families have the money to hire some big time attorney to fight the government. It is a good thing Nazario has pro bono civilian attorney working for him because if he had a court appointed lawyer all he or she will do is try to convince him to take some sort of plea bargain because they are too inexperienced to handle a case of his nature or they want to save money in not trying the case in court.
Let's just look at Nazario. He has lost his job, he can't get hired and he has a wife and child to support.
Since the government has done so much investigating I wonder when the Officer who asked " Are they dead yet" and "Make it happen" is going to be prosecuted? Oh wait, the government is going to now say that Nazario was never told such a thing and that he killed those people on his own. Yeah right, just as those troops at Abu Ghraib did what they were doing on their own without the knowledge of the Officers in charge. This crap makes me sick to my stomach.

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usmc wrote:

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Bush is realy starting to piss me off now. I had no problem serving under him and supported everything he did. For him not to step in here and do something about it is absurd. I am not one to ever bash a leader of a country but when so many people are against what he is doing and there are a select few willing to do what you say and die for you and this country you need to help them out.

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Concerned Black Citizen wrote:

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And as usual it is those at the bottom who gets the shaft. Do you think most enlisted personnel, especially an E-1, E-2, E-3 or E-4 or their families have the money to hire some big time attorney to fight the government. It is a good thing Nazario has pro bono civilian attorney working for him because if he had a court appointed lawyer all he or she will do is try to convince him to take some sort of plea bargain because they are too inexperienced to handle a case of his nature or they want to save money in not trying the case in court.
Let's just look at Nazario. He has lost his job, he can't get hired and he has a wife and child to support.
Since the government has done so much investigating I wonder when the Officer who asked " Are they dead yet" and "Make it happen" is going to be prosecuted? Oh wait, the government is going to now say that Nazario was never told such a thing and that he killed those people on his own. Yeah right, just as those troops at Abu Ghraib did what they were doing on their own without the knowledge of the Officers in charge. This crap makes me sick to my stomach.

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WaltBennett wrote:

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I think you understand what I mean. Some people knew, but they were keeping their mouths shut. By "the military", I meant those in a position to bring charges.
I'm sure there was a conspiracy of silence.
I'm not sure why you are disputing the evident fact that the prosecution stems from the other soldier's specific confession to "the worst thing he had ever done".
I'm pretty sure you're just guessing when you say that they could have brought charges sooner. I am saying that there was either a white-wash or a cover-up at low levels of command, which I am sure happens nearly every day over there. When something comes to light via other channels, higher levels of command are forced to investigate. If the man was still in uniform, they would have court-martialed him. He wasn't, so they pursued him in civilian criminal court. It's still the military doing the prosecuting, it's simply a matter of venue.
If you are arguing against what is known at this time, which you seem to be, what would your source be for that?
To ask a direct question: why would they have known about this atrocity and not charged him while he was still in uniform? Are you suggesting that they waited on purpose? Are you suggesting that they intended to keep it covered up but were embarrassed into prosecuting?
I'm really not clear on what you think happened here.

Concerned Black Citizen wrote:

Does anyone know how many American service members were charged and/or convicted of such a crime as Nazarro is charged with in the Vietnam War?

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Tobie1108 wrote:

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I know it does me too. I am hoping with this publicity a good lawyer will donate his time for a good cause so this soldier can put this behind him.

Concerned Black Citizen wrote:

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Being honest here and I pray I am wrong but Nazarro does not stand a chance of getting off. The powers that be have already determined this. We are talking about national security here.
Let's say Nazarro gets off. The Muslim world is going to make it look as if Americans let him off when they knew he was guilty of killing unarmed innocent civilians and you know their media is going to play it up so this country can't take the chance of the backlash they might receive from the Muslim world.
I feel so sorry for Nazarro and his family but he's in one pickle and I don't think he is getting off but as I've said I hope and pray that I am wrong but this case has too many political ramifications.
The same as Abu Ghraib, the US knew they had to show the world that someone was being punished so they get the lowest in the chain and feed them to the wolves and plaster their pictures all over the news around the world and the sad thing is that many of those who served at Abu Ghraib had no sort of MP training/background and should never have been in that prison in the first place. Did anyone look into this? You bet they didn't. Those troops are just pawns to be played with.

Concerned Black Citizen wrote:

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I agree wholeheartedly with you. Before the ink dried on the conviction of his good bud Lewis "Scooter Libby Bush had given the guy a pardon but some lowly enlisted guy, screw him, let him burn and we'll light the match.
Bush is not going to step in because he is afraid of pissing off those rag heads. They can torture and mutilate our troops and in their countries they cheer the deaths of American service members but here at home it’s oh, we're America, we don't do such things, we're too nice.
As I've mentioned I'm retired but I wouldn't encourage any young man or woman to enter into the military at this time. This country has false pride and could care less about the troops. The pay sucks and when you get out the VA treats you like crap and veterans have a hard time getting a job when in my opinion if you've served your country honorably, especially in combat you should be guaranteed a civilian job upon an honorable discharge.