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Dust Storm
Minneapolis, MN
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NORMAND winnipeg wrote: <quoted text>--- JOHN; WE show our "LOVE" by telling "The Truth"... IT WILL SAVE PEOPLE FROM DEATH... THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH...AS PER THE BIBLE... THANKYOU, GOD BLESS... Normand, Your back again after saying it was your last post about 4 posts ago. Did Ellen White send you a message? You are always so thoughtful printing in large print so everyone can see. God Bless Ya Brother.
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Eddy
Marble, NC
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john wrote: <quoted text>
Eddy, if you get a chance, pick up Pope Benedict's book Jesus of Nazareth which I think you might come away with a new respect for him. The bible is quoted almost entirely during his book. I think that you will enjoy. Actually John, I was thinking about picking that book up. I'm sure I would like it. That and "Everlasting Man", which I believe is a book written by a Catholic. Thanks for the tip. I'm not opposed to reading catholic books. I also find the entire history of the church very interesting from a historical perspective. I cannot accept many of the catholic tranditions however, as I feel that many contradict new testament teachings. Take care.
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Dust Storm
Minneapolis, MN
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ICEBURG wrote: Have any of you ever thought about the fact that as long as the Devil keeps you busy trying to deside who's right. He's keeping you from Gods work? And it's not just this topic.
I've been gone for a few days and still it's bla, bla, bla... LOL that is about it. I don't mind anyone spreading the message of Christ. I do mind people coming in here eyes closed fists swinging spreading all kinds of lies and calling the whole church led by lies and distorted truths and what Catholics believe, and did and only from the Bible alone can they form beliefs while using history and tradition something many say cant be done. All priests are pedophiles and the Church is lying and yet everyone else can disagree on whatever they want and and argue about it because its good as long as its not too Catholic and many churches claim they are the One True Church. If you arent in the Church with Christ why be in it and argue with everyone else? People come here to tell Catholics they are all wrong, but they are right and for a Pope to say something every Catholic confesses at each mass to be their belief, what has been said from the beginning is wrong. Alrightee then. If someone said, why do you believe that? Or what is the understanding. But there is so much false witness out there it is astounding. Catholics arent bad its there theology. Sorry but the Church is a part of some.
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john
Stockton, CA
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Dust Storm wrote: Yes it was a very good artical. Thanks for sharing. John
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Light of Knowledge
Kaysville, UT
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Eddy wrote: <quoted text>
Actually John, I was thinking about picking that book up. I'm sure I would like it. That and "Everlasting Man", which I believe is a book written by a Catholic. Thanks for the tip.
I'm not opposed to reading catholic books. I also find the entire history of the church very interesting from a historical perspective. I cannot accept many of the catholic tranditions however, as I feel that many contradict new testament teachings. Take care. I am thankful to not be a Catholic !!! William Tyndale knows more about God and His Son than any POPE ever did , or ever will, that is my promise to ALL !
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Dust Storm
Minneapolis, MN
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john wrote: <quoted text>
Eddy, yes in the early Church it was said that we confess our sins to one another. In the Early Church first 3 centuries, the penitent confessed their sins to the whole congregation. And one was only allowed 1 confession in ones lifetime. Emerior Constantine converted on his death bed because of this, and this was not uncommon as many put off conversion until the last moment. Gradually the sacrament of confession(and it was a sacrament at even the earliest times)evolved to where frequent confession was encouraged as we are all sinners and in need of confession of our sins. We do not confess to the priest, we confess thru him. http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301sbs... http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_o...
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john
Stockton, CA
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Eddy wrote: <quoted text>
Actually John, I was thinking about picking that book up. I'm sure I would like it. That and "Everlasting Man", which I believe is a book written by a Catholic. Thanks for the tip.
I'm not opposed to reading catholic books. I also find the entire history of the church very interesting from a historical perspective. I cannot accept many of the catholic tranditions however, as I feel that many contradict new testament teachings. Take care. Eddy, yes what I found very interesting was Byzantine History which really is Church History. A good source for early church history is a Russian Orthodox Seminary called Saint Vladimir's that you can order on line. They have many prominate Historians that will give a balanced view. An easy short cut is go to OCA.ORG , then go to links and should have one for Saint Vladimir's. Father John Meyendorff is a very readable and good historian. Another book for a good balanced Church history is the Historic road of Eastern Orthodoxy. One of my faviorites was written by Daniel Brown...Antioch and Rome.
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Dust Storm
Minneapolis, MN
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Eddy wrote: <quoted text>
John Paul probably didn't even know it was in there, Benedict is much more a student of the Bible and surely knows its in there. Btw, I have a certain level of respect for Benedict for his stand on principles and issues and return to conservative theology. Unfortunately I disagree with much of his theology. Yeah probably, after all he is only the small responsibility of well over a Billion people. Did you meet him and discuss that?
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Dust Storm
Minneapolis, MN
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Light of Knowledge wrote: <quoted text>
I am thankful to not be a Catholic !!!
William Tyndale knows more about God and
His Son than any POPE ever did , or ever
will, that is my promise to ALL ! Well it's all settled then thanks for clearing that up. Go in peace and love and serve the Lord.
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Light of Knowledge
Kaysville, UT
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" The nature of Gods word is that whosoever read it, or hear it reasoned and disputed before him."
" It will begin immediately to make him everyday
better and better. Till he be grown into a perfect man. "
William Tyndale
Also, his reasoning was the Apostles taught in
their native tongue, why should not the English
have the same...? That is pure, Logic !!
The 1500s, saved Christian thinking, the
Catholic Church did not prevail the Dark AGES,
neither will it prevail, over All the hearts of
the children of men !!
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Joined: Feb 11, 2008
Comments: 14
Buffalo Grove, IL
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I really think the Catholic Church would benefit by creating sub-labels -- orthodox, conservative and reform -- so people like Elizabeth(OH) don't feel forced to leave the Church. However, don't fault the Pope for acting like "God's Representative on Earth for matters of Church doctrine." That's exactly what the Pope -- chosen by God's Divine direction in conclave – is supposed to do. The Pope is the embodiment of Orthodoxy. He's defines the ultimate doctrine Catholics must believe to be members of the Catholic Church. He is the hardliner. He's not supposed to make nice with other religions so they'll like Catholics. He's supposed to see to it that Catholics follow God's law and get into heaven.
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Light of Knowledge
Kaysville, UT
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The reformers saved the World from falsehood,
the 'seven sacraments of the Catholic Church '
do not save us - Faith in Christ - Does !
NOT - TEAM USA - BUT, MARTIN and WILLIAM
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Light of Knowledge
Kaysville, UT
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AgGa99 wrote: I really think the Catholic Church would benefit by creating sub-labels -- orthodox, conservative and reform -- so people like Elizabeth(OH) don't feel forced to leave the Church. However, don't fault the Pope for acting like "God's Representative on Earth for matters of Church doctrine." That's exactly what the Pope -- chosen by God's Divine direction in conclave – is supposed to do. The Pope is the embodiment of Orthodoxy. He's defines the ultimate doctrine Catholics must believe to be members of the Catholic Church. He is the hardliner. He's not supposed to make nice with other religions so they'll like Catholics. He's supposed to see to it that Catholics follow God's law and get into heaven. And YOU - think , arrogantly, that only CATHOLICS will get into HEAVEN ?? ANOTHER CATHOLIC, falsehood, CLEARLY !!
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Dust Storm
Minneapolis, MN
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Eddy wrote: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
(Jesus, Matthew 6:7)
I guess catholics would argue that their repetitions are sincere and not vain, but how can every word come from the heart every time? Are the psalms wrong when they say praise him, praise him, or repeat things? Do songs repeat? Do you think saying the Lords prayer more than once is in vain? The belief is that praying to a rock carved into a false god is in vain. They worshipped other gods. They believed those gods might even be more powerful then God. They did not ask their god to pray to the ONLY God knowing all things can only come from him. Yes a prayer comes from the heart and is reflected on. It doesnt mean you shouldnt or cannot talk to the Father as a friend and ask him for wisdom and guidance and blessings and thank him for whatever you have be it great or small.
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john
Stockton, CA
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Dust Storm wrote: Dust Storm thanks for the links. You know until going on this forum maybe 3 months ago, I never gave much thought to confession. But it is one question that is asked of us by Non-Catholic's, and hard to answer. I remember as a child being taken by my family every or every other Saturday to go to confession. Not giving much thought because this is what we did. I will say this, that answering the hard questions from Non-Catholic's has made me research alot harder but has made me stronger in my faith. I hope that all on this board has grown because of all of our imput. Thanks again John
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Eddy
Marble, NC
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john wrote: <quoted text>
Eddy, yes in the early Church it was said that we confess our sins to one another. In the Early Church first 3 centuries, the penitent confessed their sins to the whole congregation. And one was only allowed 1 confession in ones lifetime. Emerior Constantine converted on his death bed because of this, and this was not uncommon as many put off conversion until the last moment. Gradually the sacrament of confession(and it was a sacrament at even the earliest times)evolved to where frequent confession was encouraged as we are all sinners and in need of confession of our sins. We do not confess to the priest, we confess thru him. Interesting. The one-confession-per-lifetime thing must originate from this passage: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27) I guess it depends on your view of salvation and eternal security. From the Prostestant viewpoint, you are eternally saved but fall out of communion with God when you sin until you confess and repent. You are still saved, but you with your sins will come chastisement from God. If you have the catholic view that you are not necessarily eternally saved, I can see why this passage would cause people to save that "get out of jail free card" so to speak. It's said to think how many people had this mentality and never got that chance at deathbed repentance. As always, thanks for your insights.
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disciple
Moreno Valley, CA
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Dust Storm wrote: <quoted text>
Its all becoming sola clear now. So Jesus said, " I will give YOU the keys. JUST KIDDING! When was that removed? Did he forget to give them to him? Does it happen at some future date or when he left? What is difficult about the word You? Did the whole meaning of Keys change to something new and incorporate multitudes? Why didn't he tell the other Apostles? Was it a secret? The sola possiblities keep coming. So does the Bible tell you which people really know the truth or do solify that concept on your own? After all the Bible said so. Was Peter confused when he said Pauls writings were difficult for the unlearned to understand leading them to destruction? Seriously why do you need writings? It could just come like it did for the apostles right? Why did they appoint others and correct people who had been baptised and recived water and the spirit? How come people who had been baptized didnt understand? Why did Jesus keep that information from the church for such a long time? Was everyone corrupt from the beginning and Saint Martin Luther did the good deed like some say?
Since you have the Keys now and can withhold the Gospel from others do the Publishing houses know this? Do you have the power to bind and loose as well or didn't Jesus really give the Apostles that authority? Wherever 2 or more people who think whatever they want it's all good? You leave the Church out of that equation. Its very probable 2 Apostles agreed with one another before the council in Jerusalem and others did not. It goes without saying that everyone has the right to bind and loose docrtine as long as 2 people agree. Say Jim Jones and Joseph smith for instance. Sounds pretty sola awesome. A Pope acts in concert with the college of bishops like the apostles did.
Either you are infallibly certain that your interpretation is correct or not. If you're infallibly certain, then you proclaim every reader of the Scripture, a personal infallibility which you claim no Pope and college of Bishops have. Everyone is a Pope. If you can not be certain you understand the true meaning of anything then what use is a book of opinions with nobody to know for certainty what the true meaning is? No man is in infallible on every matter and neither were the Apostles. It was the Spirit who worked through them and we must believe that to be true. A belief that the head of that Church who with the other Bishops and a consensus believe God has revealed a truth. He founded a Church. It doesnt mean they will never sin, or do anything wrong, It doesn't even mean they will always do as taught. Peter didnt and Paul rebuked him. This doesn't mean Peter wasn't the leader anymore. It only means that God will protect the church from the error in dogma. Unity was not for everyone from the beginning. He who does not hear the Church let him be as the Heathen and the Publican. Lo, I am with you always until the end of the world. The Church. It looks like you may have a problem understanding what I wrote.
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Eddy
Marble, NC
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john wrote: <quoted text>
Eddy, if you get a chance, pick up Pope Benedict's book Jesus of Nazareth which I think you might come away with a new respect for him. The bible is quoted almost entirely during his book. I think that you will enjoy. John, I'll read it if you give another "born-again" church a try, deal?:) I am planning on reading it though.
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Eddy
Marble, NC
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john wrote: <quoted text>
Eddy, yes in the early Church it was said that we confess our sins to one another. In the Early Church first 3 centuries, the penitent confessed their sins to the whole congregation. And one was only allowed 1 confession in ones lifetime. Emerior Constantine converted on his death bed because of this, and this was not uncommon as many put off conversion until the last moment. Gradually the sacrament of confession(and it was a sacrament at even the earliest times)evolved to where frequent confession was encouraged as we are all sinners and in need of confession of our sins. We do not confess to the priest, we confess thru him. So John, you say that you confess through the priest not to the priest. Fine. But can you receive forgiveness of sins without confessing to a priest? Can you pray and directly ask God for forgiveness? This whole system is mimicing the old testament priestly system that required sacrifices for atonement to be made through the priests and not directly by the individual. This type of system is never taught in the new testament, to the contrary it teaches that all believers are the priesthood of Christ and we have one mediator between us and the Father - Jesus Christ.
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Eddy
Marble, NC
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Gina wrote: <quoted text>
----------Gina, I have told you that I respect your opinion. Obviously you don't extend the same courtesy to other believers.---------
I don't buy into what I perceive as false humility. I don't extend courtesy to falsehoods.
-------I and others have asked you to consider several questions, and all you can point to is pharoah and romans 9. We've tried to reason with you from the scriptures, but it's obviously you with the closed mind because we've asked you several questions that you have not answered.------
I have given you more than just Rom.9 but that must have been accidently overlooked. I believe that I have answered most of your questions but I don't believe that you got what you wanted. And in turn, you haven't answered some of my questions but I don't mind.
------- I don't believe I've ever said you were wrong, I simply used scripture and common sense to present a different view.------
No, you tried to use your opinionated Scripture against Scripture to try and prove your view.
------I don't mind you disagreeing with me and it's not up to me to try and change your mind, but you keep saying that we do not fear God and you are DEAD WRONG.-----
I didn't say that you don't fear God, I said that you don't fear that anything you say, you will be held accountable for by God...you have no fear of God in your message.
----Actually, we probably fear God more than you because we do not see ourselves as lucky enough to be "chosen".-----
That's odd because God says that He chose you. And it wasn't luck, it's just Who God is. So if you ever understand God's sovereignty over salvation as well as other things, you will realize that much more how much God loves you.
----Let's not forget we're on the same side here, we're all Christians in this together. If you do not consider me and others Christians because we disagree on this issue, then that's your problem and not mine. I however consider you a fellow Christian, no matter which one of us is right on this.----
I don't know if were on the same side...I don't even know you. And instead of saying that you'll have to pray about the things I mentioned, you just tried to prove me wrong. In my eyes, this is very un-Christ like. I have always been open to learn Who God is and it has taken me many years and God had to change my thinking many times in my walk. I once believed very strongly the same way you do concerning free will. This is why revelation from God is most important...not how smart we think we are. It's easy to stand on the shoulders and the teachings of others but one day you'll have to thoroughly search the Scriptures with just you and God for long periods at a time. I take your word for it when you say that you're a brother in Christ, but it's hard to understand why you guys keep throwing pearls to the swine day after day. What are you trying to prove? Is this just a way to pass time at work and get paid for it or do you find comfort in believing that you the man?
I don't believe that the subject of free will is something that should be argued over...it's not like we're debating salvation or the gospel or something. I just threw it out there because it does tend to make your theology a bit off at times, however, for the most part concerning Catholicism, I enjoy reading your posts. You're right Gina. I shouldn't have responded so harshly, sorry. It's just that I read your post as saying that I do not fear God. I've always said this is a difficult topic, and for a time I believed in predestination. Upon further study I changed my mind. I have enjoyed your posts as well. Take care and God bless!
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Judge it!
Scorpio
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