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Common Sense

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#507984
Jun 8, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Design indicates Designer.
<quoted text> That is not a problem for me.
<quoted text> How?
<quoted text> Something is behind it. There has to be sufficient cause to effect design. Non intelligence is not sufficient cause to effect anything. Inert elements is not sufficient cause to effect life or the complexity of a DNA molecule no matter how much time or conditions since time tends to bring about disorder. When it come to God your open mind slams shut.
Seeing design in existing patterns is subjective.

Why would you not expect patterns to exist?

Why would you not expect to find patterns that are more interesting than others.

Mathematically all of these patterns can be enumerated.

We enumerate atoms by their number of protons.

Scientists today can bring into existence atoms that cannot be found in nature.

In that case the scientists create the process for bringing these atoms into existence.

Nature, which is not a deity and does not require that you worship it, does that on its own.

Nature might be complex, but to imagine that there is an anthropomorphic lying behind the curtains pulling string, is asinine.

No god is required, base on your thinking your god would require a designer that is more complex than he is, ad infinitum.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

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San Francisco

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#507989
Jun 8, 2012
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Subjection does not mean inequality.
Yes actually, it does.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

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#507991
Jun 8, 2012
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Page 22787. Post 470236. Wilderide...''since Jesus showed everyone the way why don't all Chistians just kill themselves and join God right now?" <quoted text> I took it as a suicide suggestion. Your reference to Christianity as a suicide cult is also over the top and hateful in the extreme.
That may be how you read it, but I have no control over how you interpret my words. <shrugs>

Over the top and hateful? LOL! Have you ever seen the snuff film called "The Passion of the Christ"? What do you think the symbol of the cross is? If Jesus had been executed in the last century I suppose you guys would all be walking around with little gold electric chairs or injection needles. Both of which are far, far more humane than nailing someone to a cross and leaving them to die. Your God wallows in cruelty, genocide, infanticide, loves the smell of burning flesh and has an insatiable need for death. THAT is over the top and hateful.

“free your mind.”

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#507992
Jun 8, 2012
 
Truth signed in wrote:
<quoted text>
hey Beat! Haven't seen you in a while...hope all is well.
It's not that I mind being a cousin to a chimp...they're cute as a button...I just think that's really not the case. I mean, like I said, human DNA is closely related to other species as well.
Yes i'm fine thanks.. you too..?
Personally I see apes as amazingly similar to humans..
For some theists, they may feel uneasy about evolutionary findings as it can contradict eg biblical claims..compromise their beliefs etc..
Not so for you..?

“free your mind.”

Since: Oct 10

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#507994
Jun 8, 2012
 
Truth signed in wrote:
<quoted text>
good to see you too DF!
Well...as you know...I believe we were created by God...so of course, that's where I stand on that. But I do have an appreciation for science, so unlike many, I don't just brush off all science as foolishness. However, Just because we have genetic and anatomical similaries with chimps, it doesn't mean we are descendants of the same species. I'm not fully sold on our dating systems either. Science has definitely been proven wrong on their ability to date archeological finds.
Do you accede that people evolved..?(and other animals for that matter..)Or do you think we were suddenly put here 'ready baked..'?(or half baked, as the case may be..!)

“free your mind.”

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#507996
Jun 8, 2012
 
karl44 wrote:
<quoted text>
some of us try to understand what is real, others try to tell themselves they are special and not subject to death.
fear is hostile to knowledge
do you consider that fear lies at the heart of most delusions..?
you could be right...

“Credulity is not a virtue”

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#507997
Jun 8, 2012
 

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ChrisMott wrote:
Prove there is anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_metho...
Prove how Earth was made, Scientist have thousands of theories. All of them argue with each other on their theories.
Uh no, science has a pretty good idea of how the Earth was formed. Moreover, science can certainly prove with a vast amount of objective evidence across scientific disciplines that is was not created according to the account in Genesis.
Prove how a explosion of gasses created the nervous system, skeletal system, the reprodutive systems and cycles, and created Love, Fear, Hope etc...
This is simply an argument from incredulity. Understanding how the first process led to the others you reference can certainly be done, but you have to make an effort to learn about many processes along the way. If it makes you feel better to grasp at an easy answer rather than an accurate one that is your choice, but it doesn't mean everyone is, frankly, that intellectually lazy.
There are many many theories that people take as common knowledge that have no hard evidence much less proof.
Such as Creationism?
The only REAL proof,if the Proof that you seek to find for yourself.
Yes, through objective evidence and repeatable experimentation.
I cant prove to you there is a God. He has proven to Me that he exists in many many ways.

But you have to seek proof with an open unbiased mind. Looking neither to Prove or Disprove but to honestly seek the truth. Then you will find the proof that YOU are looking for. Wether it be there is, or isnt a God.
My search and life's experiences and other things have Proven to me that my God is real.
And throughout the ages countless people have been equally convinced of the existence of a bewildering array of gods entirely different from your own. Evidently, wishful thinking and emotional projection isn't very reliable, is it? That's exactly why objective evidence is so important.
Common Sense

Ottawa, Canada

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#507998
Jun 8, 2012
 

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Happy Go Lucky 7 wrote:
<quoted text>You are wrong, the unifornity of patterns in nature are srructured and ordered by God. We have the proof, it is your science design that has no proof. Science keeps trying to rquate no God to earth, where there is God and pattern. It is science that fails, failes in its proof and cries foul play when they look at other planets and find no pattern and no life and no God. So, science looks and looks, then they assert, there must be life and pattern on other planets, some day we will find it. So, science proofs that where there is no God, there is no life and no pattern, and some day science hopes to prove there is no God when they find life and no pattern on a planet without God.
Are you serious?

Are you pretending that you don't know the meaning of the word pattern?

I know, I might be asking a lot of you, but consider learning about binary numbers.

Look at the binary numbers from 0 to 15.

Now consider learning about logic elements and binary logic.

Within that range you find the resultant values for all binary operations, some are "useful" and some are not so "useful".

I place the word "useful" within quotes because the usefulness of each resultant value is somewhat subjective since they are all in fact useful.

If this makes no sense to you, put it aside from now and make an honest attempt to get yourself educated and you will understand what this is all about.

Anyway, the point is that there are always patterns. We can put our arbitary meaning to them and consider some of then useless and consider the others to be the result of some great design.

The fact that we consider them to be the result of some great design is meaningless dribble.

What we know so far is that things exist in nature, everything that exist in nature have natural causes. History has shown that as time progresses we are becoming better able to determine those natural causes.

So your biblical indoctrination tells you that the bible was written by men that were inspired by god, saying so does not make it so.

Here's something for you:

The following was inspired by god:
There is no god.

This can lead one to speculate endlessly about the nature of this god that tells us that there is no god. Maybe the god in the first line is a different type of god from the god i the second line and he is telling us that the god in the second line does not exist, but he does.

This is what religious belief and blind faith does, it confounds us with nonesense.

It is too easy to say that something was inspired by an unknown and poorly defined entity.

If you have actually read your bible, you would have seen all of the holes and inconsistencies in it.
Lily the aborter

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#507999
Jun 8, 2012
 

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Anonymous wrote:
Prove we evolved from apes. Prove the big bang occurred. Prove God exists. The thing is no one really can prove any of those. All we have is theories and evidence. Theories about whether God exists, theories about us evolving from apes. Both sound equally odd if you step back and look at the big picture. There is evidence to support either claim but no one has real proof. Its up to you to decide what you want to believe in. There's no reason to get mad about it though.
Humans did NOT...I repeat...did NOT evolve from apes. I just love when people that do not understand and have not been educated in evolution try to debate the subject.

Humans and apes share a common ancestor. Now go look up that fact, do some research, and come back and we will debate the issue.

FYI, there are facts and 'proof' that humans and apes share a common ancestor.
There is evidence that the Big Bang occured.
There are not facts, evidence, or 'proof' that a god exists. None. Religion is all a bunch of heresay and faerie tales which try to control the minds and actions of the masses.

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#508001
Jun 8, 2012
 

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Truth signed in wrote:
<quoted text>
And our similarities with cows is about 80%....so the bottom line is...we could just as easily be a cousin to a cow. I have no problem with humans being placed in the same classification as the apes...that's peachy if science feels the need to do that...but I don't believe for one second we are the result of a split from an unseen species that supposedly existed millions of years ago. Again, science has no more proof of that than I do of God. It's a theory...not a fact...if we're gonna scientifically discuss the matter.
It is a fact that we can observe similarities within and between species of animals, including man, and from these we can make certain assumptions, that, though they may not be completely accurate, do give us some truths. One truth is that man belongs to the man-made category of animals that give milk - mammals. So that is something we can see.

We have nothing at all of that nature to indicate the existence of a god. All we have are books telling us, in what man of old wrote down, that certain relationships of physical things come from this unseen God. Yet there never has been any sign of this God, that any man can verify actually existed - the signs of God, I mean.

So one thing that people believe in - God - is 100% in the mind and is a belief, while the other things about relationships between living things that we can see are something we can look at and test.

It might be true that the original animal that the current animals came from cannot be found, but considering we are maybe talking billions of years, it is not, IMO, unreasonable to assume that no evidence exists of such an animal, because all evidence has disappeared over such a long time.

So we may never be able to find proof of all life originating from one source, but I am pretty confident we will never find proof either than all life originated from an invisible God speaking it into existence from absolutely nothing.

The fact that some people think that all being created from nothing is more believable than all having been formed from basic elements over many billions of years is rather amazing. It makes no logical sense.
Lily the aborter

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#508002
Jun 8, 2012
 
Judge Moniters wrote:
<quoted text>Actually, that is exactly what it says about the number of gods in Hinduism.
I guess you better buzz out.
It is debated and some say 330 million dieties does not mean gods, while some say the number is 33 gods. The confusion is in the word gods.
http://search.babylon.com/ ...
The 330 Million Faces of God.
According to the Hindu Deities website: "A Hindu deity (god or goddess; note small g) represents a particular aspect of the Supreme Being. For example, Saraswati represents the learning and knowledge aspect of the Supreme Being.
Um no, it is wrong.

Hinduism is sometimes described as a polytheistic faith with 330 million gods. However, the number 330 million is a symbol for the doctrine that God lives in all living things. Hindus are sometimes considered monotheistic because they recognize one supreme deity or unifying force, called Brahman. Many sects of Hinduism are also considered henotheistic because they worship one god while recognizing the existence of others. However, most Hindus are not concerned with labels. As the sacred text the "Rig Veda" says, "The truth is one, but different sages call it by different names."

http://www.ehow.com/info_8395374_kind-gods-do...

Hinduism is generally associated with a multiplicity of Gods, and it does not advocate the worship of one particular deity. The Gods and Goddesses of Hinduism amount to thousands, all representing the many aspects of only one supreme Absolute called “Brahman”. However, people who don’t know this, misinterprets the fact that Hinduism has a multitude of Gods! What one should understand is that although there are many manifestations of Brahman in the forms of deities each deity is really an aspect of the Brahman or, ultimately Brahman itself.

http://hinduism.about.com/cs/basics/a/aa07210...

Everything I've read and learned (in class) about Hinduism states pretty much the same thing. People see the number 330 million and run with it but fail to keep reading. By not doing the proper research, you did not get all the facts on the subject. Go back and keep reading and you will see Sir Doctor 1000/4/5/999/3 (whatever number he is wearing right now after being banned over and over) and you are wrong and should admit it.

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#508004
Jun 8, 2012
 
Happy Go Lucky 7 wrote:
Prove there's a God:
Without God nothing lives and there is no life. The very essence of our existence is in God. He is seen in all that is living. We see Him in a new born baby as it takes its lace to live. We see how God has made His mark on the watermelon. You eat one watermelon and you replace it with millions, when the seeds itself are left to grow into more watermelons. Uniformed with man, inside of him there are millions of lives waiting to be formed and shaped into like-kind.
It is more difficult to prove or believe that we evoloved from a lower form, than to see that we were created and stretched from perfection and a higher form. If we follow the laws of nature and science itself we see this and we see God reaching down to us and us up to him, rather than us falling down to a lower form.
We see the proof in all that is living, if not, then none are looking.
That is absolutely 100% false. Those who make that claim say that because they have been indoctrinated, often from birth, to think that way. If we had been told that all of what we see was put there by a great unicorn, or spaghetti monster, who visited earth billions of years ago, and then moved on, that is what the majority of us would say when we looked at the beauty around us.

When we look at the things around us we see what is there, with our own particular slant on whether it is beautiful or ugly. Some may look at the beautiful waves of the ocean crashing against the rocks and see God, and others might look at them and think how horrid as that is what nearly killed them, when they were in a near drowning situation (as I was a couple years ago, though I still see the beauty of the waves that nearly killed me).

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#508005
Jun 8, 2012
 
Happy Go Lucky 7 wrote:
<quoted text>You are wrong, the unifornity of patterns in nature are srructured and ordered by God. We have the proof, it is your science design that has no proof. Science keeps trying to rquate no God to earth, where there is God and pattern. It is science that fails, failes in its proof and cries foul play when they look at other planets and find no pattern and no life and no God. So, science looks and looks, then they assert, there must be life and pattern on other planets, some day we will find it. So, science proofs that where there is no God, there is no life and no pattern, and some day science hopes to prove there is no God when they find life and no pattern on a planet without God.
Sorry but that is really a very poor attempt.
Lily the aborter

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#508006
Jun 8, 2012
 
Sir Doctor 3 wrote:
<quoted text>I do not think that you comprehend the definition of "cousin".
You do not comprehend anything.

Humans and apes share a common ancestor. The 'cousin' analogy is just put out there for those who do not understand evolution to get a general understanding of how primates are 'related'.
DA

“let's do this thang!”

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#508007
Jun 8, 2012
 
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
If the universe came together by "random events" that would be accurate. But the universe came together according to natural laws, so it is not at all accurate. In fact, but 40 monkey mating pairs on a continent, with or without typewriters, come back in about 40 million years and the odds are fair there will be some with encyclopedia's.
LOL - what ridiculous assumptions!

1st - who/what established these 'laws of nature'???
2nd - how could you ever prove what will occur after 40 million years and why assume that it would be any different than what would occur now???

you have great faith in all things anti-god!!!

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#508010
Jun 8, 2012
 

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Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
1) Evolution does not confirm, deny or propagate any deity. It is a process. There may be a deity behind it. No scientist can say that evolution destroys the possibility of a deity.
2) What dating methods were proven wrong? Radioactive/Carbon decay is a fairly straightforward science and can be measured. Do not believe silly sites propagating that dating methods are inconsistent. Look for a dissertation.
3) Now, forget about the dating. How come mammals are found in a strata higher up than the dinosaurs?
Their fur holding air bubbles kept them from sinking so fast in The Flood.

:-)

I posted a link a couple of days ago about them discovering some event via tree rings that elevated carbon 14 in one year to 20 times its normal level. This was about 1200 years ago. The level has also been elevated exponentially in the 50's and 60s from atomic testing in the atmosphere. So you have remarkable changes in the atmosphere over a long period of time. I doubt if all the factors used in the calibrating have been take into account.

And don't forget, as I have posted about before, the data about rocks and stuff are all based upon the gravity well we now live in. A lot of accretion since then, and so far no definitive way to know just what it was like. Plus evidence suggests the earth had a more energetic magnetic field way back when. All of those sort of things just don't allow for calculations based upon what we have now to be considered absolutely accurate. There are a lot of assumptions made in figuring how this picture we live was made.

One more time. Look at the Venezulean Basin on Google Earth. Huge and very abnormal geological feature. I haven't seen anything else like it anywhere. Atlantis would fit in almost perfectly. In addition, you have the surrounding mountains and open area to the south mentioned in the account of it. Look at the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and the old outline of Africa. That basin was not that far away from the present Straits of Gibralter. The southeast coast of Africa from pre-drift, which is still visible, should have been scraped away. Man was alive and well a lot longer than what they say, or these events happened more quickly and recently than they say, which is based on those incorrect calculations.

BTW, the account of Atlantis also mentions the navigable waters were blocked by mud for long time. Something to be expected with a sudden crustal displacement.

You asked.:-)

“let's do this thang!”

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#508011
Jun 8, 2012
 

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New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
If you really wanted to step up you understanding of "Christ", then the Nag Hammadi Library is something you should investigate.
Another avenue that many veer away from, is investigating the similarities of Jesus and other beings through the ages. My avatar page has one, but another interesting take on it is James Tabor's "The Jesus Dynasty".
http://jamestabor.com/
that's my sister you're trying to lead astray, bub!

we have the Gospels and many good instructors who submit themselves to the Holy Spirit and not new-age mumbo-jumbo, thank you very much.....

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#508013
Jun 8, 2012
 

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Sir Doctor 3 wrote:
<quoted text>boooots, then you and I can take it. I can see a Christian attacking like that and it is wrong. I doubt that few here intentionally worship the devil. I have run across a few that do.
****

What the atheist has done is distracted from his argument and all the Christian hears is stupid, ignorant and childish.
So, the response becomes that you are controlled by satan, you're going to hell, and you are afraid to accept that there is a God and all of the evidence is around you but you are too stupid to see it.
The atheist only hears controlled by satan, hell, afraid and stupid.
So, the war rages on.
If you believe that God is impossible to you, then that position should be respected. You then say, I see the evidence of an old earth of 14 billion years and an evolving process. The Bible account just does not make sense to me.
The Christian should respond something like this, I respect that this is your position. However, I know that God exists because that has been reconciled to me. You may not understand how I know or appreciate it, but it is real. I will not try to change your position, if I do fine and if not fine.
Two separate camps are set up, respect is acknowledged, but it must be maintained.
Now, the grounds have been set for civil disagreement. The point should not be to convince, but to share. If after over 480,000 posts the two sides disagree, so what, the disagreement was there long before that.
I have seen highly educated posters on both sides, so attacking a person's education as a debate tactic is weak, especially when the poster avoids the argument altogether. We can all learn something, but just because you learned that does not make it right.
Some posters have taken being civil to mean that they have an opinion, and the other side should not theirs. That is wrong.
I hope that others join us.
I agree. In my case I cannot prove the existence of God, or a god, and I know from what has come to my knowledge in 65 years that there has yet to be any concrete proofs of a god ever found. If something has been found it obviously was not significant enough to convince the masses, or we would by now have 100%, who have access to common knowledge, as people who actually know God exists because they have seen the evidence and know it is confirmed evidence.

I cannot begin to prove that a god doesn't exist, because one cannot prove something is non-existent, because it might be beyond our reach such that it exists but we cannot find it - there is always that possibility.

What I have attempted to do, in my less irate moments here, was to point out things that some people claim have been proved to be true, that actually have been proved to not be true. Things that we have found evidence of which confirms or denies a belief are real, and cannot be disputed, though many may not agree.

I have no trouble letting people believe what makes them happy (assuming it harms no one else). I have trouble with people who can't accept people who don't believe what they do and so need to change that person to meet what they expect of them.

We have reached some real bottle-necks on this site because of the personal flaming, and because some people have been caught in lies which are confirmed lies, yet continue to claim those same lies.

There are many situations, though, where people are called liars, for just expressing their own opinion, rather than actually deliberately misleading us. To make a statement that you believe to be true but it isn't is not lying; it is just you are misinformed or confused. To make a statement which you know to be a lie, and attempt to pass it off as the truth, is, in fact telling a lie.

The 'you' mentioned above is not referring to you personally but to whoever in general does the things I mentioned.

“let's do this thang!”

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#508015
Jun 8, 2012
 

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boooots wrote:
<quoted text>
That is such a brain-less argument that people have used here and elsewhere forever, and it is totally meaningless. Nobody is stating that what is now just happen by a one chance in several billion odds. You are taking what is and trying to suggest that what is couldn't be, based on the odds of something happening. The fact is we are here, the earth is here. The known universe is here, and universes beyond our ability to detect are likely also here. How they got that way, we do not know.
Scientists have some ideas, and some parts of their ideas have been proved through research, eg evolution did lead to many species today that evolved to what they are from something they were before. But we don't yet have any idea, even if elements and molecules did just happen to come together to form life, how that took place and why.
If you think the odds of life having come about by some scientifically explainable way is such a long shot, look at how much of a gamble it is to suggest, that a few men living at a time when knowledge of 'things' compared to our knowledge today was next to nil, could come up with a story that exactly explained how everything came to be, and got it 100% correct.
They couldn't do that, and they didn't do that. They made up stories to explain things they didn't know, and we (or a least some of us) now still believe those fantasies to be fact.
The answer, since we don't know, though, is never obviously God did it. That is the sign of the highest stupidity to suggest that anything that man cannot explain HAS to be from God. One would have to first prove there is such a thing as God, before even giving any thought to the possibility that this God might be responsible for anything. That has never happened.
really??? first ya'll say this amazing universe is the result of a random explosion, then i hear there are "laws in nature" that make things work together in measured harmony.....!!!

y'all are basically saying that there must be a God but we don't wanna give Him His deserved props cuz are brains are so large!

booots the over-the-top lib just can't fit God into his widdo equation.....

“ONE NATION UNDER GOD!”

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#508016
Jun 8, 2012
 

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Common Sense wrote:
<quoted text>
Your argument sounds very divisive and you failed to provide your explanation of the definition of the word "genetically."
BTW so far no one has been able to prove the occurrence of anything supernatural, if you think you can then feel free to publicize your findings, there will be fame and fortune waiting for you.
HOW SILLY.

there have been SCADS of things published over the course of time about the supernatural.

the problem here is that you seem to think unless YOU yourself can see God with human eyes (which is impossible) that, that proves conclusively there is no God.

you have not crossed over to eternity ... how do you know?

many folks have had near death experiences......and from that feel confident of the fact there are more to this life than you or I know.

my father who was a VERY 'logical' man.
didn't go in for emotionalism and hype.
2 weeks before he died, went into cardiac arrest and as they put it, clinically died.......and was brought back with electric shock
(no drugs)
and HE was mad we brought him back,
tears rolled down his cheeks which i had never seen him cry in all my life.
and he said to us.....IT WAS BEAUTIFUL.
i saw it.
i saw heaven

and from that point on he said he had NO fear in dying and when He died he smiled and WE KNEW........
so don't tell me, there is no God.

how can you look at the magnificance of creation and not see the glory of God in it? especially when you can't duplicate it from scrath.

how can you deny your own soul?

how can you refute biblical fulfillment and archaeology proof?

here is what it boils down to.
seeking God in truth
or not seeking God at all.

people who say there is no God do so for selfish reasons.

if you were honest with yourself you would admit you don't want to be told what to do by God.
you don't want to give up those things that please your flesh in wrongful ways.

and that is why you have chosen to tell yourself there is no God.

which is fine.
you were given that free will to choose that for yourself.
you have that right.

but please don't try to speak for me or others when we tell you what 'WE' know.

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