The Two Faces of New Atheism

One further contribution of the New Atheists is that for the first time in American history, disbelief has become a legitimate cultural alternative. Ironically, it took a devout president, George W. Bush, to galvanize American nonbelievers and turn atheist manifestos into national bestsellers

Of course atheists remain a distrusted and despised minority, and it will take time for politicians to begin to acknowledge personal disbelief publicly

I tend to like this site, they genuinely seem interested in a balanced discussion among various groups - this article while very good strays a little, esp. at the end...

First, this New Atheism is hardly an organization that we atheists are rallying under. And while I have read and enjoyed these authors works, I could easily recognize their arguments faults and spotted the senseless vitriol quickly...

And while I agree they have allowed for a break-thru for atheists, aganostics, skeptics - and perhaps even the very doubtful religious to step-up to the microphone and not expect to be burned at the stake at the next church cake drive, I hardly see them as my spokesmen (where is the female contingent?)

We atheists (at least me) are not keen on having others speak for us - unlike the religious who seem/appear eager to allow various "Leaders" to say what ever they please and they'll support it...because its "inspired" by the Holy Spirit.(or so they all claim) We/I dont want nor need a spokesperson, because in this country at least, we prefer the Constitution to do our talking...that wonderful document is my big stick, not the Bible. or any of these authors books for that matter...

But were the article strayed is when it Blames these authors, these few Atheists - for not being more open and willing to embrace everyone in a big progressive hug. 2000 odd years of the religious crushing and not permitting dissent in the public square - and its our fault...!!!

Go figure...??? Once again we're to blame, we're being scolded by yet another of the religious for being wrong and not trying hard enough (like we resist belief) to step to the religious side of the street.

Perhaps this author needs to apply a little of the critical thinking she says the New Atheist authors are failing to do...

Perhaps, and Im just tossing this out there - she needs to realize that atheists are a tad gun-shy after so many years of being treated like a bunch of immoral, hedonists worthy of burning at the stake.

It takes big set of cajones to blame atheists for not being warm and open to the religious (progressives or not) after we've been treated like road-kill for so long...(hell, I know people who treat road-kill better)

"Sam Harris in particular has accused religious progressives of being part of the problem by not speaking out harshly enough against the conservatives, and thus legitimating fundamentalist perspectives. I think Harris’ criticism is misguided."

and this point is a bit laughable. this is exactly what xtians and jews are blaming alledged Islamic moderates of not doing...stepping up and criticizing the extremists - so why isnt the goose good for the gander in xtianity...?

Light Sensitive wrote:

One further contribution of the New Atheists is that for the first time in American history, disbelief has become a legitimate cultural alternative. Ironically, it took a devout president, George W. Bush, to galvanize American nonbelievers and turn atheist manifestos into national bestsellers
Of course atheists remain a distrusted and despised minority, and it will take time for politicians to begin to acknowledge personal disbelief publicly

Maybe atheists wouldn't be such a despised minority if they weren't so intolerant of people who disagree with their views. Going by the atheists on Topix, I can see they are a mean, disrespectful bunch, that's for sure.

You wish wrote:

<quoted text>
Maybe atheists wouldn't be such a despised minority if they weren't so intolerant of people who disagree with their views. Going by the atheists on Topix, I can see they are a mean, disrespectful bunch, that's for sure.

amazingly, that's not why atheists are disliked by beleivers

it's the same reason that gays and lesbians are disliked by religious right

because athiests and/or gays and lesbians

mean you don't have to be like religious right/beleivers to have a happy and productive and more importantly, a moral life

beleviers and/or right ring are all about conformity

their identity depends on people doing the same as they do

when people don't, they can't cope and default into protect the children

which is basically an admission that their life chpices are not desirable, since even knowing that other options exist would make their kids toss everything their parents represent for something else

it's that very human need for validation

& we don't validate

nina wrote:

<quoted text>
amazingly, that's not why atheists are disliked by beleivers
it's the same reason that gays and lesbians are disliked by religious right
because athiests and/or gays and lesbians
mean you don't have to be like religious right/beleivers to have a happy and productive and more importantly, a moral life
beleviers and/or right ring are all about conformity
their identity depends on people doing the same as they do
when people don't, they can't cope and default into protect the children
which is basically an admission that their life chpices are not desirable, since even knowing that other options exist would make their kids toss everything their parents represent for something else
it's that very human need for validation
& we don't validate

You have it wrong. But before I explain why I think so, I have to clarify that when I say believers, I'm not talking about ones such as Fred Phelps and others like him among the christian sects. If you can't differentiate between the two, as some unbelievers can't, then you'll totally disregard everything I'm about to say. Anyway, believers don't dislike gays and lesbians as people, they disagree with their lifestyle and refuse to bow to popular culture that demands we agree with it.

And believers really aren't threatened by atheists at all. We are well aware that many unbelievers, be it atheists, agnostics, or those who just don't bother thinking about God or a lack of God at all, can live wonderful, happy lives. Believers would have no problem with atheists if atheists weren't so vehement in their atheism, and didnt belittle and badger believers. Atheists don't want our beliefs shoved down their throats anymore than we want their lack of beliefs shoved down ours. An example I'll use is when I was watching a news segment about an atheist group who was hanging atheist books on trees at christmastime. The atheist woman was on the show, and a christian man. Both were supposed to be allowed to tell their points of view. The atheist woman spoke, while the christian man listened. She said how unbelievers deserved to have a tree like the christians did, etc. When it was the christian man's turn to tell his point of view, no sooner did he begin talking than the atheist woman angrily interrupted with more of her poinst of view. The man wasn't able to get a full sentence out during the entire interview because she did not want to hear what he had to say, she was only concerned with her own views and opinions. I see that sort of thing alot. Personally, the inability to shut up and let someone else speak who has an opposing view without the smirks and the eye rolling and other childish gestures is the biggest problem I have with atheists.

You wish wrote:

Anyway, believers don't dislike gays and lesbians as people, they disagree with their lifestyle and refuse to bow to popular culture that demands we agree with it.

New atheists hate the Christianity, not the Christians.

Some believers are just unable to differentiate I guess.

You wish wrote:

<quoted text>
...I have to clarify that when I say believers, I'm not talking about ones such as Fred Phelps and others like him among the christian sects. If you can't differentiate between the two, as some unbelievers can't, then you'll totally disregard everything I'm about to say.......Personally, the inability to shut up and let someone else speak who has an opposing view without the smirks and the eye rolling and other childish gestures is the biggest problem I have with atheists.

1. believers as individuals and in their larger groups are not the same - they are varying shades of grey to black in their beleifs, conduct and treatment of outsiders to their groups

that said, all beleivers of all religions, extrement to moderate, big and small, can be distilled to this essense:

my group has the truth and everyone else is wrong and will suffer a bad afterlife outcome for it.

atheist say there's no evidience, no god and thus no such thing as absolute throught - with no consequences to outsiders

athiests, like gays and lesbians - and like blacks and women before them

were largely shut out for decades from the public discussion and were marginalized from public life

even today, a black lesbian single mom in a wheelchair is more likely to be elected president if she is a born again than a straight male atheist.

2 that some individual atheists are rude is neither hear nor there in terms of athiests everywhere, there is no code of behavior imposed on us, because that's got nothing to do with atheism

unlike religion, which does impose a code of conduct on the membership

and frankly, I've seen debates, news stories with religious people where they aren't acting in accordance with their claimed belief's code of conduct, nor even with what public schools require of elementary school kids

bad behaviour is also entirely beside the point

not everyone is capable of being a good amabassor for their "side"

and no matter how rude an athiest is about putting across their view

if that's the worst we do

it doesn't ever register when you compare it to not just the Phelps protesting at funerals

but abortion doctor shooters, suicide bombers, and other religious people who in the name of their religion, have killed people

and those ones are the the truest beleivers

not the get along moderate beleivers who are not obeying their faith's requirements

check this article out
http://www.dangardner.ca/Colnov1407.html

Carrot_Stick wrote:

<quoted text>
New atheists hate the Christianity, not the Christians.
Some believers are just unable to differentiate I guess.

The way the atheists behave it would be impossible to differentiate.

nina wrote:

<quoted text>
1. believers as individuals and in their larger groups are not the same - they are varying shades of grey to black in their beleifs, conduct and treatment of outsiders to their groups
that said, all beleivers of all religions, extrement to moderate, big and small, can be distilled to this essense:
my group has the truth and everyone else is wrong and will suffer a bad afterlife outcome for it.
atheist say there's no evidience, no god and thus no such thing as absolute throught - with no consequences to outsiders
athiests, like gays and lesbians - and like blacks and women before them
were largely shut out for decades from the public discussion and were marginalized from public life
even today, a black lesbian single mom in a wheelchair is more likely to be elected president if she is a born again than a straight male atheist.
2 that some individual atheists are rude is neither hear nor there in terms of athiests everywhere, there is no code of behavior imposed on us, because that's got nothing to do with atheism
unlike religion, which does impose a code of conduct on the membership
and frankly, I've seen debates, news stories with religious people where they aren't acting in accordance with their claimed belief's code of conduct, nor even with what public schools require of elementary school kids
bad behaviour is also entirely beside the point
not everyone is capable of being a good amabassor for their "side"
and no matter how rude an athiest is about putting across their view
if that's the worst we do
it doesn't ever register when you compare it to not just the Phelps protesting at funerals
but abortion doctor shooters, suicide bombers, and other religious people who in the name of their religion, have killed people
and those ones are the the truest beleivers
not the get along moderate beleivers who are not obeying their faith's requirements
check this article out
http://www.dangardner.ca/Colnov1407.html

If you're going to play the down-trodden card, christians were once fed to lions for sport and often burned at the stake, etc. Atheists also commit horrible crimes, just not in the name of their god as in islam. The man who walked into the holocaust museum and killed the guard was said to be an atheist. The difference is merely they atheists kill because they want to. I dont know of any christian who kills because God told them to. People often erroneously link all conservatives and pro-life supporters with christianity. I know plenty of christians who consider themselves liberal and nonchristians who are very conservative. You don't know if the people who kill abortion doctors are christians, you just assume they are because they oppose abortion. As for the article, thanks but no thanks. Richard dawkins is entitled to his non-belief and opinions, and I'm entitled to pay no attention to them. I understand he's kind of like the atheist messiah, but I think he's full of it.

You wish wrote:

<quoted text>
If you're going to play the down-trodden card, christians were once fed to lions for sport and often burned at the stake, etc. Atheists also commit horrible crimes, just not in the name of their god as in islam. The man who walked into the holocaust museum and killed the guard was said to be an atheist.

I heard he was into Christian Identity, a racist white supremacist offshoot of Christianity.

ByronMoreno wrote:

<quoted text>
I heard he was into Christian Identity, a racist white supremacist offshoot of Christianity.

This was part of a CNN article about him.

"Postings attributed to him on other Web sites declared both Christianity and the Holocaust "hoaxes," and announced that "Hitler's worst mistake" was "he didn't gas the Jews." "

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/11/museum.sh...

You wish wrote:

<quoted text>
If you're going to play the down-trodden card, christians were once fed to lions for ...

yeah, 2000 year ago

you guys have never been downtrodden in the US

and only in a few islamic countries now

which isn't relevant to you

it's not a downtrodden card

discrimination is a fact

sometimes you're the target, sometimes you're the shooter

You wish wrote:

<quoted text>
This was part of a CNN article about him.
"Postings attributed to him on other Web sites declared both Christianity and the Holocaust "hoaxes," and announced that "Hitler's worst mistake" was "he didn't gas the Jews." "
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/11/museum.sh...

I'd rather see the context of these posts. People on the fringe of christianity have called mainstream christianity a fraud, even here on Topix. To them, it's a sellout. I've been having that exact debate with some wingnut loonies. "Christianity" is a false religion, but they follow what they think is the proper interpretation of the bible. They are still christian by our standard.

And there is still no evidence of him being an atheist. Being anti-christian and anti-Jewish means little.

ByronMoreno wrote:

<quoted text>
... People on the fringe of christianity have called mainstream christianity a fraud, even here on Topix. To them, it's a sellout....

to the belivers of one particular version of a faith, all other versions of that faith, combined with all otehr faiths are wrong and sellouts

that's regardless of being a moderate or a fundy

the huge split in the Anglican church isn't exactly over gay marriage

it's about the more catholic leaning anglicans vs the centre vs the united leaning anglicans

You wish wrote:

<quoted text>
The way the atheists behave it would be impossible to differentiate.

Atheists make up a very diverse group of people. I agree that many of us on here are very nasty sometimes. But not all of us behave the same.

Hello

You Wish

//Maybe atheists wouldn't be such a despised minority if they weren't so intolerant of people who disagree with their views. Going by the atheists on Topix, I can see they are a mean, disrespectful bunch, that's for sure.//

No,, it starts with YOU,, not US...

Maybe you haven't heard of the blasphemy Act of 1698 ??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in...

Where it was Punishable by Death to be an Atheist...

When Christianity stops Demonizing us, and stops the Blatant Lies about Atheism, then Maybe we will calm down and warm up a little....

Until that happens,, Don't Expect Any warm fuzzy feelings from us...

A.

nina wrote:

<quoted text>
to the belivers of one particular version of a faith, all other versions of that faith, combined with all otehr faiths are wrong and sellouts
that's regardless of being a moderate or a fundy
the huge split in the Anglican church isn't exactly over gay marriage
it's about the more catholic leaning anglicans vs the centre vs the united leaning anglicans

I can't understand why people have such a big problem with christians believing their way is the only right way. No one seems to have a problem with the other beliefs that believe their beliefs are the only right way. And who would have faith in a belief system that they believe isn't the right way, or just one of many right ways? All paths can't lead to the same destination, so why is it such a crime for christians to believe that their path is the right path? Things that make me go hmmm.

You wish wrote:

<quoted text>
Maybe atheists wouldn't be such a despised minority if they weren't so intolerant of people who disagree with their views. Going by the atheists on Topix, I can see they are a mean, disrespectful bunch, that's for sure.

we're disliked not for being rude - a fairly recent phenomenon if its one at all, its because we dont, cant believe in the imaginery world of the religious. thats why.

all peoples are rude at some point, but most havent been killed, marginalized, treated like vermin for being rude. unlike the track record of xtians towards all dissenting opinion/beliefs thru history...

what goes around comes around..think on it the next time you evaluate a politician based on their sobbing born again story and deem them a better more moral perosn than say an atheist running for the same office (if he/she were willing to commit career suicide)

Like the new LOV-Gov Sanford a self-rightoeus xtian. all full of his moralistic clap-trap about gays, clinton, etc...and he was on the short list as a new GOP heavy-weight...roflmao...

You wish wrote:

<quoted text>
I can't understand why people have such a big problem with christians believing their way is the only right way. No one seems to have a problem with the other beliefs that believe their beliefs are the only right way. And who would have faith in a belief system that they believe isn't the right way, or just one of many right ways? All paths can't lead to the same destination, so why is it such a crime for christians to believe that their path is the right path? Things that make me go hmmm.

youre kidding right? dont get out much, read the papers?(well the papers that are left)

if all xtians, if all the religious were so tolerant of other beliefs the world wouldnt be littered with the corpses of those they despise as being Satans (pick a demon from any religion) minions.

its the very notion that other beliefs are not the same path that is at the very heart of all the enmity between differing religions and also between various sects in the same religion. and that its the duty of one religion or sect to eradicate the other so the world wont have them fouling it...because thats what god wants.

there has never been much tolerance (episodic sure) between religions...and that stems from the notion of being the CHOSEN Peoples, nothing more. every religion chases that carrot - to be the CHOSEN ones.

The USA has the same cultural mythology. that we're the new chosen peoples...the most blessed and the most righteous in gods eyes...or so many, many xtians seemt to think...