LeBron gives Cavs 'A' for Williams trade

tom wrote:

<quoted text>
Z vs Mikki Moore? what does that have to do with anything?

Uhh ... Mikki Moore was one of those titan "centers" with whom Z had to have an epic battle in order to reach the NBA finals. In other words, Ilgauskas had nothing to do with reaching anything. It was James. And James. And James. And James. And James. Instead of wasting 5 years of salary cap space and a ridiculous amount of money on some journeyman quality center like Ilgauskas, a guy who plays best and is most effective when he's playing 20-22 minutes a game, that salary cap space should have gone elsewhere.

King James wrote:

<quoted text>
Battier was good enough for the FIBA 06 World Championships team.
Coach K must think he's pretty good.
I would think if he could make that team...
He's a pretty good player....
Just a thought...
Look... All Star... Not an All Star...
Thats not the point...
A guy like Battier is a guy you can win with...
He's the type guy you want on your team.
Dont question my credibility...
Question Coach K's...

Nah. A guy like Battier wouldn't help Cleveland. An excellent defensive guy, but when a team actually needs a 7'3" tortoise to shoot outside shots as a primary offensive option, for god's sakes, then defensive specialists probably belong on another team. Battier has helped himself by developing a good three-point shot, but his midrange and post game is pretty lousy. Wrong type of guy for Cleveland.

Ghost of Akron Al wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually, it's not so much that you need to explain yourself, it's more that you're just wrong. No one has ever said Z was a franchise player, and he's not paid like one. His current contract, which you seem to dislike, has always paid him around the average for a starting center - where he should be. He makes within a million either way of the most starting NBA centers. Overpaid players are people like Theo Ratliff, Austin Croshere, and Raef LaFrentz, all of whom made more money than Z did in the first year of his current deal, and produce little to nothing. It's also incorrect to characterize his contract as a cap clogger, since not only does he make money consistent with his production, but plays a lot of games. Debate the merit of Z's skills and how his game fits with Lebron's all you want - that's subjective. But looking at what players are actually paid in the NBA and what Z provides, the facts show Z is simply not overpaid.

What??? He's paid far MORE than most starting centers. You're not by paid by position and by how many centuries you've been in the league. Hence Kevin Willis spending the last years of his career getting paid the vet's minimum. You're paid by merit and actual value. On top of that, Ilgauskas arguably isn't even a guy who should be starting for most quality teams in the first place. A marginally better Rasho Nesterovic that happens to have a free-throw shot.

alan t wrote:

<quoted text> What??? He's paid far MORE than most starting centers. You're not by paid by position and by how many centuries you've been in the league. Hence Kevin Willis spending the last years of his career getting paid the vet's minimum. You're paid by merit and actual value. On top of that, Ilgauskas arguably isn't even a guy who should be starting for most quality teams in the first place. A marginally better Rasho Nesterovic that happens to have a free-throw shot.

taking a look at most starting Centers, Z is better than most. alot of the guys playing C now arent even true Centers.
Here is a cross-section of centers (and some PF's) in the NBA. I would say Z's salary is fairly reasonable.

Zydrunas Ilgauskas
$10,841,615
$11,541,074
Nazr Mohammed
$6,049,400
$6,466,600
$6,883,800
DeSagana Diop
The five-year deal will be worth $32.393 million.
Kenyon Martin
$14,181,818
$15,363,636
$16,545,454
Nenê
$9,680,000
$10,520,000
$11,360,000
$11,600,000
Rasheed Wallace
$13,680,000
Adonal Foyle
$6,800,000

Yao Ming
$15,070,550
$16,378,325
$17,686,100
Troy Murphy
$10,126,984
$11,047,619
$11,968,253
Radoslav Nesterovic
$8,400,000

Chris Kaman
$9,500,000
$10,400,000
$11,300,000
$12,200,000
Marcus Camby
$8,000,000
$7,650,000
Pau Gasol
$15,080,312
$16,451,250
$17,822,187
Mark Blount
$7,350,000
$7,962,500

Dan Gadzuric
$6,246,250
$6,745,000
$7,243,750

Tyson Chandler
$10,950,000
$11,850,000
$12,750,000

Jerome James
$6,200,000
$6,600,000


Shaquille O'Neal
$20,000,000
20,000,000

Raef LaFrentz
$12,722,500

Brad Miller
$11,375,000
$12,250,000

Jermaine O'Neal
$21,352,500
$22,995,000

Etan Thomas
$6,860,000
$7,350,000

alan t wrote:

<quoted text> Uhh ... Mikki Moore was one of those titan "centers" with whom Z had to have an epic battle in order to reach the NBA finals. In other words, Ilgauskas had nothing to do with reaching anything. It was James. And James. And James. And James. And James. Instead of wasting 5 years of salary cap space and a ridiculous amount of money on some journeyman quality center like Ilgauskas, a guy who plays best and is most effective when he's playing 20-22 minutes a game, that salary cap space should have gone elsewhere.

nobody is arguing that Z is the second coming of Kareem here. however, the cavs are a better team with Z at C than someone like Dan Gadzuric, Jerome James or most other true journeymen Centers. Z is hardly a journeyman center. a journeyman center doesnt averge 14.5 points and 8 rebounds over a 10-year career.

It did take Jordan's Bulls 6 years to win the title, however I think the NBA had some better teams in those years. You put the Cavs team that made the finals in that day, and you probably have a team that goes down in the 2nd round, if not the 1st.
As for Pippen, he was a darn good player. But like King James said, without Jordan he's just another guy that would have made an all star game or two......probably.

tom wrote:

<quoted text>
taking a look at most starting Centers, Z is better than most. alot of the guys playing C now arent even true Centers.
Here is a cross-section of centers (and some PF's) in the NBA. I would say Z's salary is fairly reasonable.
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
$10,841,615
$11,541,074
Nazr Mohammed
$6,049,400
$6,466,600
$6,883,800
DeSagana Diop
The five-year deal will be worth $32.393 million.
Kenyon Martin
$14,181,818
$15,363,636
$16,545,454
Nenê
$9,680,000
$10,520,000
$11,360,000
$11,600,000
Rasheed Wallace
$13,680,000
Adonal Foyle
$6,800,000
Yao Ming
$15,070,550
$16,378,325
$17,686,100
Troy Murphy
$10,126,984
$11,047,619
$11,968,253
Radoslav Nesterovic
$8,400,000
Chris Kaman
$9,500,000
$10,400,000
$11,300,000
$12,200,000
Marcus Camby
$8,000,000
$7,650,000
Pau Gasol
$15,080,312
$16,451,250
$17,822,187
Mark Blount
$7,350,000
$7,962,500
Dan Gadzuric
$6,246,250
$6,745,000
$7,243,750
Tyson Chandler
$10,950,000
$11,850,000
$12,750,000
Jerome James
$6,200,000
$6,600,000
Shaquille O'Neal
$20,000,000
20,000,000
Raef LaFrentz
$12,722,500
Brad Miller
$11,375,000
$12,250,000
Jermaine O'Neal
$21,352,500
$22,995,000
Etan Thomas
$6,860,000
$7,350,000

Why are you posting bloated salaries of power forwards? I was talking about centers, and so were you. The centers paid a lot more than Ilgauskas deserve it, and nobody was given insane five-year contracts in an off-season where nobody could give them more than the midlevel exception. No matter how you slice it, Ilgauskas was gifted a silly contract that Cleveland didn't have to pay. Bidding against yourself is the ultimate in retarded business behavior, and then give the guy a 15% trade kicker? I'm guessing Ferry has learned his lesson by now, but that doesn't negate how moronic that deal was. And given the fact there's still two long years remaining, still is.

i didnt post bloated salaries of power forwards. most of those guys are centers and some power forwards who play center. there arent many true centers in the nba anymore - most that play center are actually power forwards.

alan t wrote:

<quoted text> Nah. A guy like Battier wouldn't help Cleveland. An excellent defensive guy, but when a team actually needs a 7'3" tortoise to shoot outside shots as a primary offensive option, for god's sakes, then defensive specialists probably belong on another team. Battier has helped himself by developing a good three-point shot, but his midrange and post game is pretty lousy. Wrong type of guy for Cleveland.

Battier reminds me of a young Robert Horry type player....
And/Or a Bruce Bowen type as well...

Shut down Defender... Can guard several positions...

He comes to play every night.
Smart/young player....

A good spot up 3 shooter....
career 39%.....(from 3)
Not bad...

Bowen career 39% as well...

As for the post...

We need to get LBJ in the post more...

In Mo... LBJ may actually have a guy (for the first time in his career) that can feed the post.

LBJ is a beast under the basket...

Draw that double team, and kick it out to a guy like Battier... Not bad...

Plus Battier would really help LBJ on D...

LBJ wouldnt have to guard the best player on the other team as much.... Like Pierce in the Celts series... We would of put Shane on him... Give LBJ a rest at times...

Battier would lock down on him....

it doesnt matter though...

We arent getting him...

i didnt post bloated salaries of power forwards. most of those guys are centers and some power forwards who play center. there arent many true centers in the nba anymore - most that play center are actually power forwards. Z is a step above Troy Murphy who in my opinion has a worse contract.

and who cares about the trade kicker? both sides knew that it was highly unlikely that Z would eve so the trade kicker was irrelevant.

hdawg wrote:

It did take Jordan's Bulls 6 years to win the title, however I think the NBA had some better teams in those years. You put the Cavs team that made the finals in that day, and you probably have a team that goes down in the 2nd round, if not the 1st.
As for Pippen, he was a darn good player. But like King James said, without Jordan he's just another guy that would have made an all star game or two......probably.

What I was saying was....
Yes it took 6 years to win a title...

But the pieces of the Title team were put in place in about 2 years....

Pippen, and Grant were brought in (i think) it was 87... 2 years after MJ...

My point is...

Do we have a Pippen, and Grant on this roster yet?

It didnt take 6 years for Mike to get them on his team....

Again...
My point is this...

It didnt take the Bulls GM (krause was it ?)... Anyway... It didnt take him 6 years to put a championship type team in place...

It just took them 6 years to get over the hump...

King James wrote:

<quoted text>
Battier reminds me of a young Robert Horry type player....
And/Or a Bruce Bowen type as well...
Shut down Defender... Can guard several positions...
He comes to play every night.
Smart/young player....
A good spot up 3 shooter....
career 39%.....(from 3)
Not bad...

a pretty good generalization of Battier. none of that makes him an all-star though. robert horry and bruce bowen arent all stars either.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/pgStory...

an interesting article discussing overrated players in the nba -#1 is shane battier.

tom wrote:

<quoted text>
a pretty good generalization of Battier. none of that makes him an all-star though. robert horry and bruce bowen arent all stars either.

If coach K thinks hes good enough for the FIBA 06 team...

That is an "all-star" type player to me..

But like I said...

Talk to coach K.. Not me..

tom wrote:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/p gStory?contentId=8455178&M SNHPHMA#sport=NBA&photo=84 55158
an interesting article discussing overrated players in the nba -#1 is shane battier.

Thats because so many people do NOT understand the value of D...

Coach K and I do...

King James wrote:

<quoted text>
Thats because so many people do NOT understand the value of D...
Coach K and I do...

yeah you and Coach K - two peas in a pod.

Many people questioned why Battier was even on that roster in the first place. I am sure the fact that he played for Coach K in college and nothing to do with it. Kirk Hinrich was also on that team - hardly an all star. Christian Laettner was on the original Dream Team - he's an all star too right?

not to turn this into a Shane Battier discussion, but he is a nice player. i wouldnt mind having him on the cavs. but he's hardly an all-star and is really mediocre at best.

tom wrote:

<quoted text>
yeah you and Coach K - two peas in a pod.
Many people questioned why Battier was even on that roster in the first place. I am sure the fact that he played for Coach K in college and nothing to do with it. Kirk Hinrich was also on that team - hardly an all star. Christian Laettner was on the original Dream Team - he's an all star too right?
not to turn this into a Shane Battier discussion, but he is a nice player. i wouldnt mind having him on the cavs. but he's hardly an all-star and is really mediocre at best.

Well lets be honest here...

Christian was only on that team because they wanted to take a college kid...

Look... My point is real simple...

If the USA wants you on the FIBA 06 national team...
I would say the player is better than "mediocre at best"....

But if you think you know more than Coach K.. and the olympic team organizers.... Give um a ring.

Just remember...

They will tell you D is 50% of the game..

Battier is one of the leagues best Defenders... and has the ability to guard several positions...

That is a top player to me...
If not you... That cool.

The All star game is more of a score fest...
Not really the best team B-Ball players in the world...
More of a scoring thing...

If you are building a team...
Battier is your guy... Not an Allen Iverson... Who is an all star by the way...

tom wrote:

<quoted text>
yeah you and Coach K - two peas in a pod.
Many people questioned why Battier was even on that roster in the first place. I am sure the fact that he played for Coach K in college and nothing to do with it. Kirk Hinrich was also on that team - hardly an all star. Christian Laettner was on the original Dream Team - he's an all star too right?
not to turn this into a Shane Battier discussion, but he is a nice player. i wouldnt mind having him on the cavs. but he's hardly an all-star and is really mediocre at best.

Following 07 All stars I would take Battier on my team over....

Okur, Iverson (now), Ray Allen (now).

Iverson, and Allen were better in their prime...

But now... I would rather have Battier.

ray allen had no business being in the all star game last year - no doubt about that.