Lenoir City High School won't publish atheist student's editorial on religion in schools

Feb 23, 2012 Full story: Knoxville News Sentinel 2,050

Krystal Myers, editor of the school paper at Lenoir City High School, has run afoul of school administrators because of her editorial entitled "No Rights: The Life of an Atheist." Schools Director Wayne Miller said it was the decision of the school authorities not to allow publication of Myers' editorial because of the potential for disruption in ... (more)

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Joe Fortuna

Eureka, CA

#2003 Apr 23, 2012
Enough wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right. That was not a proper statement for me to make. It is easy to get defensive and speak inappropriately on here sometimes.
My apologies.
Now its showing.

“glass half enough”

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#2004 Apr 23, 2012
I've been inappropriate, too, and I'm sorry for that.

I mixed expressing myself in ways that stayed true to my personal opinions with insults, the latter being unnecessary, no matter who posts what that I find insulting.
Joe Fortuna

Eureka, CA

#2005 Apr 23, 2012
half glass enough wrote:
I've been inappropriate, too, and I'm sorry for that.
I mixed expressing myself in ways that stayed true to my personal opinions with insults, the latter being unnecessary, no matter who posts what that I find insulting.
I'm sure I've insulted people with my opinions as well, but very seldom is it my intent.
I prefer to kill them by ignoring their insults.:O)

Since: Oct 10

United States

#2006 Apr 23, 2012
Enough Already wrote:
<quoted text>
Scientific principle may be your religion.
Of course Intelligent Design and Creationism is the same thing. I'm not stupid! Silly person.
As for your first sentence, I don't have a religion. As for your second sentence, congratulations....you finally got something right.

Since: Oct 10

United States

#2007 Apr 23, 2012
Enough Already wrote:
So anything that can't proven (by the standard of proof set by the one doing the critiquing) and is considered a fallacy by the one doing the critiquing is a "straw man."
So we agree that to me your comments are made up primarily of straw men; and to you my comments are straw men.
Since your worldview and mine are totally different, it makes sense we would both feel that way.
There is still no "proof" either of us can point to to convince the other.
So we can respectfully agree to disagree.
And let there be this kind of religious and nontheist debate in our public schools.
The adults might not be able to pull it off with respect and civility, but I bet the socially responsible students could if given a chance!
Incorrect. Your first sentence is not the definition of a straw man argument.

In a straw man argument, you misrepresent the position of the individual with whom you are debating and then argue against that incorrect position.

It has been your modus operandi. A straw man argument is necessarily dishonest by definition, hence the reason I often cite you are dishonest.

“glass half enough”

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#2008 Apr 23, 2012
Joe Fortuna wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sure I've insulted people with my opinions as well, but very seldom is it my intent.
I prefer to kill them by ignoring their insults.:O)
Well, just to be clear, I was differentiating between my own opinions versus actual insults. There is no apology necessary for having an opinion, but the question is about how that opinion is delivered. If someone is insulted at my lack of Christianity, that's their issue and not mine. If I call someone a jackass, no matter the reason, that's on me.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

#2009 Apr 23, 2012
-Purple Haze- wrote:
<quoted text>Incorrect. Your first sentence is not the definition of a straw man argument.
In a straw man argument, you misrepresent the position of the individual with whom you are debating and then argue against that incorrect position.
It has been your modus operandi. A straw man argument is necessarily dishonest by definition, hence the reason I often cite you are dishonest.
To be fair, you should realize that those who haven't studied logic often copy the conversational patterns of those around them. As such, using straw man arguments and other classic fallacies could simply be habits that their users think valid because their use is so common where they live.

We're used to seeing the same users here, constantly changing their screen names after defeat to start the same argument over, hoping to "get it right" with each new incarnation, but because were interacting with the LC forum for the first time, were seeing new people, and we should realize that these topics are new to some of them and exercise more patience than we do with our familiar chameleons.

Since: Oct 10

United States

#2010 Apr 23, 2012
NightSerf wrote:
<quoted text>
To be fair, you should realize that those who haven't studied logic often copy the conversational patterns of those around them. As such, using straw man arguments and other classic fallacies could simply be habits that their users think valid because their use is so common where they live.
We're used to seeing the same users here, constantly changing their screen names after defeat to start the same argument over, hoping to "get it right" with each new incarnation, but because were interacting with the LC forum for the first time, were seeing new people, and we should realize that these topics are new to some of them and exercise more patience than we do with our familiar chameleons.
I appreciate your patience and maybe you are better for it but I will point out dishonesty when I see it. I find it difficult to conceive that a grown person isn't aware they are arguing against a false argument, which seems often to be the result of a desire to insert emotionally-charged, unsubstantiated personal conjecture based on their preconceptions about those who don't believe as they do.

There is no useful exchange of ideas if every single time I receive a reply from Enough Already, the argument isn't remotely close to what I clearly articulated.

Perhaps I'm cynical but in my view, Enough Already has consistently shown a pattern of patent dishonesty.
Enough

Knoxville, TN

#2011 Apr 23, 2012
-Purple Haze- wrote:
<quoted text>I appreciate your patience and maybe you are better for it but I will point out dishonesty when I see it. I find it difficult to conceive that a grown person isn't aware they are arguing against a false argument, which seems often to be the result of a desire to insert emotionally-charged, unsubstantiated personal conjecture based on their preconceptions about those who don't believe as they do.
There is no useful exchange of ideas if every single time I receive a reply from Enough Already, the argument isn't remotely close to what I clearly articulated.
Perhaps I'm cynical but in my view, Enough Already has consistently shown a pattern of patent dishonesty.
NightSerf has always been fair and respectful in his comments. I have appreciated the knowledge he has shared and respect his opinions even though we dont agree on the faith and God issue.
GLASSHF has said we are making progress toward civil and respectful dialogue on this thread. Id like to see us continue that progress.
Also I think NightSerf is is correct.(Putting what I think he was saying in my words): much of the perceived disrespect we are all feeling may be that we are misunderstanding one another because we are coming from such totally different cultural and academic backgrounds.

“traveling to your future Mars”

Since: Feb 12

an alternate reality.

#2012 Apr 23, 2012
Look, I know you guys are all in the future right now and all, but I wanted to say I'm really glad some of you are working things out. Even if it's just two people, that's a great start. Humans have such an inspiring story as a species. By the time you receive this message, I'll be somewhere else, but good to see Lenoir City in 2012.

“The eye has it...”

Since: Jan 12

Russell's teapot.

#2013 Apr 23, 2012
Waiting for Mars wrote:
Look, I know you guys are all in the future right now and all, but I wanted to say I'm really glad some of you are working things out. Even if it's just two people, that's a great start. Humans have such an inspiring story as a species. By the time you receive this message, I'll be somewhere else, but good to see Lenoir City in 2012.
Hey, see if you can find my keys. Seal Beach, over next to the jetty. Thanks.

OH...1987.
Enough

Knoxville, TN

#2014 Apr 24, 2012
NightSerf wrote:
<quoted text>
To be fair, you should realize that those who haven't studied logic often copy the conversational patterns of those around them. As such, using straw man arguments and other classic fallacies could simply be habits that their users think valid because their use is so common where they live.
We're used to seeing the same users here, constantly changing their screen names after defeat to start the same argument over, hoping to "get it right" with each new incarnation, but because were interacting with the LC forum for the first time, were seeing new people, and we should realize that these topics are new to some of them and exercise more patience than we do with our familiar chameleons.
I think NightSerf has made an excellent point. We seem to be continuing to make the same arguments over and cant understand why we aren't getting through to the other side
NightSerf has contributed much wisdom to this thread.
We are not enemies. We are decent Americans with different worldviews, different cultural experience and ways of expressing ourselves. We can learn from this if we can (as I think NightSerf has suggested) try to reserve judgement and give the benefit of the doubt to one another.
To be very honest many of the words and terminology used by these logical thinkers is "over my head."
I can only imagine how my Southern Baptist, East Tennessee way of speaking and thinking must "sound " to some of you.(If you could actually hear me "accent and all" y'all would probably lol!
Enough

Knoxville, TN

#2015 Apr 24, 2012
Nontheist wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, see if you can find my keys. Seal Beach, over next to the jetty. Thanks.
OH...1987.
Glad you dropped in with another wise and encouraging word. We are making progress down here.
Don't forget us.
Enough

Knoxville, TN

#2016 Apr 24, 2012
Sorry, that last post was intended for "Waiting for Mars. "

“The eye has it...”

Since: Jan 12

Russell's teapot.

#2017 Apr 24, 2012
Enough wrote:
<quoted text>
I think NightSerf has made an excellent point. We seem to be continuing to make the same arguments over and cant understand why we aren't getting through to the other side
NightSerf has contributed much wisdom to this thread.
We are not enemies. We are decent Americans with different worldviews, different cultural experience and ways of expressing ourselves. We can learn from this if we can (as I think NightSerf has suggested) try to reserve judgement and give the benefit of the doubt to one another.
To be very honest many of the words and terminology used by these logical thinkers is "over my head."
I can only imagine how my Southern Baptist, East Tennessee way of speaking and thinking must "sound " to some of you.(If you could actually hear me "accent and all" y'all would probably lol!
Don't sell yourself short. I was born in North Georgia. Live in East Tennessee. I've lived quite a few places for that matter.

My point being, there is no difference in the members of humanity. Sure, education and those things that shape us as individuals in life vary, but we're still all the same.

You might identify with this(up to a point).
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T...

One thing to keep in mind, don't let the criticism or judgement of Christianity and it's rigidity or resistance to other viewpoints be taken as a slight against you.

You, aren't Christianity. Nor am I atheism.

I'm just me.
Enough

Knoxville, TN

#2018 Apr 24, 2012
Tina wrote:
I know the school board starts meetings with a prayer but I didn't know it was unconstitutional.
It looks like there are some who may continue to push for open prayer at government meetings and in public schools, even though there has been an agreement reached to have a moment of silence (for prayer for those who choose to pray).
I'm a Christian and I'd love to see us all come together under one God and pray to God and serve God as a "Christian Nation" in public and in private and throughout the world.
There are others, however, who would want to come in and have us all be forced to pray to allah or some other god or dictator. And there may be a few non-believers who would probably want to do away with all religious practice and any recognition of any god.
The reality is that we have been given individual choice. Some think we have evolved to a place where we recognize that personal choice is part of the human experience.(At least that's the way I understand it).
Christians believe that freedom of choice (free will)is given by a righteous God who does not force Himself on anyone.
Therefore, I think a moment of silence to be used for silent prayer for those who wish to pray is more Christian than having anyone present feel they are being forced to participate by being subjected to the prayer of one speaking for all.
I've been in meetings myself when I was not comfortable with the prayer or the person offering a prayer on "my behalf." (Those are times I say my own silent prayer anyway.)
When we pray to God, it's not necessary that everyone in the room know what we pray. In fact it was the Pharisees who prayed to be seen of men.
The humble man took his petition to God privately.
A respectful moment of silence for prayer or meditation or "looking around"; that's called freedom.
The ability to pray out loud publicly will not make us better Christians and it doesn't seem to have had any affect on us becoming any more "Christian" as a nation or as a people.
IMHO!
Enough

Knoxville, TN

#2019 Apr 24, 2012
Thank you, Nontheist!
I really enjoyed the link, especially "scaritual" (another one of those words I haven't a clue about). Since it has the same eyeball pic can I assume that is you?
I've seen some crazy things in Southern Baptist Churches, but I can't imagine what it must have been like going through all that as a child.
My experience as a child is much more traditional, but as an adult I've gotten to see the "human" side of many Christians much more than I would ever have wanted to. That has taken some working through, but I guess I was just too stubborn to let it steal the faith that had become such a huge part of my life. Some people call it a crutch, and if that's what it is, then I guess that's what I've needed many times,and would not want to face tomorrow without!
I have learned a lot since finding this thread on topix.(And now that you've shared the other link I plan to spend more time reading those comments.)
I find I'm hearing discussions about religion differently than I ever have before. And I know I've grown in my thinking and my acceptance of the differences I never have had to think about before.
(Thanks to many of you who have "gotten in my face" about some of the comments I have made...What at first I saw as insulting and painful, now I can thank you for.)
I think we are proving that if we just put a little effort into trying to see one another as people who have so much in common...especially in the struggles and trials we all face in life...we can accept that we come to different conclusions about how we choose to deal with this situation we all find ourselves in.
I liked what OrthodoxGuy said about the importance of the way we treat each other. That being a universal truth, I think!
Don't know if you are familiar with Howard Storm (and I promise I am not trying to influence you.) I think his story may be beneficial to Atheists in understanding how I think many Christians believe God will deal with all of us when it comes to the subject of "hell." If we are correct and there is a God he would not do anything for Mr. Storm he would not do for you or me.(i.e. Mr. Storm is a former professor and atheist. In his testimony he describes his encounter with the God I believe in!)

“glass half enough”

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#2020 Apr 24, 2012
Enough, I liked your post even though I don't subscribe to your religious view. It seemed well organized, respectful, and thoughtful of other views. I have also taken a better look at how I perceive religious folk, not just people that I think "prove" themselves to me despite contrasts in opinion such as friends and family that I have briefly mentioned. One thing I learned early on about critical thinking is that many who have yet to start a journey in critical thought are not even aware there are perceptual blocks in their thinking habits. On the same side of the token from a different corner of the token, I should focus more on my own perceptual blind spots than being critical of other people's critical thinking. As NightSerf pointed out, this is a more efficient strategy for multiple reasons.

It's easy to get riled up by people and ideas that ruffle emotional feathers about important items such as freedom and how that applies to all, it's harder to keep a step back from the emotion and think logically about how to express one's self without losing ground or face. The harder roads tend to pay off better in the long run.

On a light note, I first thought you typed "Howard Stern," and I was immensely confused.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

#2021 Apr 24, 2012
Enough wrote:
<quoted text>
It looks like there are some who may continue to push for open prayer at government meetings and in public schools, even though there has been an agreement reached to have a moment of silence (for prayer for those who choose to pray).
I'm a Christian and I'd love to see us all come together under one God and pray to God and serve God as a "Christian Nation" in public and in private and throughout the world.
There are others, however, who would want to come in and have us all be forced to pray to allah or some other god or dictator. And there may be a few non-believers who would probably want to do away with all religious practice and any recognition of any god.
The reality is that we have been given individual choice. Some think we have evolved to a place where we recognize that personal choice is part of the human experience.(At least that's the way I understand it).
Christians believe that freedom of choice (free will)is given by a righteous God who does not force Himself on anyone.
Therefore, I think a moment of silence to be used for silent prayer for those who wish to pray is more Christian than having anyone present feel they are being forced to participate by being subjected to the prayer of one speaking for all.
I've been in meetings myself when I was not comfortable with the prayer or the person offering a prayer on "my behalf." (Those are times I say my own silent prayer anyway.)
When we pray to God, it's not necessary that everyone in the room know what we pray. In fact it was the Pharisees who prayed to be seen of men.
The humble man took his petition to God privately.
A respectful moment of silence for prayer or meditation or "looking around"; that's called freedom.
The ability to pray out loud publicly will not make us better Christians and it doesn't seem to have had any affect on us becoming any more "Christian" as a nation or as a people.
IMHO!
Actually, the issue of opening government meetings with prayers is more political than constitutional. Congress opens each day with a prayer from the Chaplain. Here's a link to the most recent one prayer:

http://chaplain.house.gov/archive/index.html

I see no reason why local governments should be subject to more restrictions that the federal government is. Further:

"The Supreme Court ruled on this issue in Marsh v. Chambers[1] in 1983, finding that the opening prayer is not an "establishment of religion" prohibited by the 1st amendment, but merely "a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country."

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1982/1982...

I would have thought--or at least hoped--that they would have ruled the other way, but, absent Constitutional amendment, the Court is the final arbiter of the Constitution. We're all entitled to our opinions, but theirs is the one the counts.

“The eye has it...”

Since: Jan 12

Russell's teapot.

#2022 Apr 25, 2012
Enough wrote:
Thank you, Nontheist!
I really enjoyed the link, especially "scaritual" (another one of those words I haven't a clue about). Since it has the same eyeball pic can I assume that is you?
I've seen some crazy things in Southern Baptist Churches, but I can't imagine what it must have been like going through all that as a child.
My experience as a child is much more traditional, but as an adult I've gotten to see the "human" side of many Christians much more than I would ever have wanted to. That has taken some working through, but I guess I was just too stubborn to let it steal the faith that had become such a huge part of my life. Some people call it a crutch, and if that's what it is, then I guess that's what I've needed many times,and would not want to face tomorrow without!
I have learned a lot since finding this thread on topix.(And now that you've shared the other link I plan to spend more time reading those comments.)
I find I'm hearing discussions about religion differently than I ever have before. And I know I've grown in my thinking and my acceptance of the differences I never have had to think about before.
(Thanks to many of you who have "gotten in my face" about some of the comments I have made...What at first I saw as insulting and painful, now I can thank you for.)
I think we are proving that if we just put a little effort into trying to see one another as people who have so much in common...especially in the struggles and trials we all face in life...we can accept that we come to different conclusions about how we choose to deal with this situation we all find ourselves in.
I liked what OrthodoxGuy said about the importance of the way we treat each other. That being a universal truth, I think!
Don't know if you are familiar with Howard Storm (and I promise I am not trying to influence you.) I think his story may be beneficial to Atheists in understanding how I think many Christians believe God will deal with all of us when it comes to the subject of "hell." If we are correct and there is a God he would not do anything for Mr. Storm he would not do for you or me.(i.e. Mr. Storm is a former professor and atheist. In his testimony he describes his encounter with the God I believe in!)
Yes, "scaritual", is me. I'm a bit familiar Mr. Storm, and as much as I enjoyed your post above, as far as Mr. Storm goes, he talks about his NDE experience.

There isn't anything other than anecdotal accounts and a few books written the give the appearance of a methodology used or the scientific method being followed.

Who knows? maybe there is something to the NDE, but, from what I've seen, it looks like no one died, the experiences related were the brains last moments of unaware bliss clouded by culturally biased expectations and hallucinations.

I did enjoy your post.

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