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Does the B sample test actually test whether or not the testastron comes from an external source? and if so, how credible is it?
I mean let's say, that the test result on the B sample comes back as positive. Does this absolutly prove that he took illegal substance and he can not take any actions?
Landis Requests Backup Sample of Test
Tour de France champion Floyd Landis officially requested the testing of his backup urine sample Monday in an effort to clear his name of doping allegations.
Full Story: The Associated Press
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Does anyone know the metabolic half-life of testosterone in hours? And would this half-life explain fluctuating testosterone levels between stages, normal, elevated, normal? I am confused and I would like some help with this.
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In all the Dutch, and Belgium news sites and some others it says not Landis but the UCI decided to ask for the analyse of the B-sample
Landis had not requested it Monday night so they did not want him to stall any further. |
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According to the results of my Google search on "half life of testosterone", it depends on how testosterone is administered (oral, dermal, intramuscular, etc. as to how efficient the absorption by the body) AND with what the testosterone has been compounded. It appears the half life of "testosterone" can be anywhere from 1 hour to 12 days. This is a pretty complex topic. Any pharmacists/chemists/physician s want to weigh in on this one?
I would like to know how accurate a urine test for testosterone/epitestosterone actually is? I was under the impression that the most accurate way to assess testosterone (well really all hormone levels) was through blood tests, not urine tests. Do they use urine tests in cycling for the convenience or the accuracy? Obviously this is a very complex topic that we're going to hear a lot more about. http://www.steroid.com/halflife.php http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone |
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In case it is not clear and obvious, remember that one cannot believe or rely in everything they read or hear. Even if most available sources report basically the same 'story', look at the recent history of reporting accuracy, and you will see huge cases of inaccuracy, speculation, misquotation, misinterpretation, rumor, and even lies. Those in North America founded a legal system based on the philosophy presuming innocence until guilt is proven, to counter the illogical, unfair, inaccurate, and flawed practice in Europe of presuming guilt, and letting public opinion or backroom politics decide the fate of the accused... remember The Inquisition? Testosterone is produced and released to the body in relation to physical exertion to aid in recover and tissue rebuilding, and excess testosterone is released from the body primarily through urine. What was different about that day? Combine a huge effort triggering testosterone release to prepare for repairing abused and damaged muscles and tissues, with the lack of urination due to the 120K (near) solo breakaway preventing the usual 'nature' breaks each rider usually gets throughout a stage (urination), and why would you not expect a huge buildup/spike in Testosterone concentration in the urine? Those who would ask why there was not an increase increase in epitestosterone to offset the increase and keep the ratio within acceptable limits do not realize that the purpose the body produces epitestosterone is to keep testosterone in check/regulated, but would not be produced nearly as much by a body which was being used excessively and preparing for tissue recovery, which is the job of testosterone. If someone wanted to cheat, wouldn't they take enough of the counterbalancing/coverup hormone to keep the ratio within limits? Of course they would. Anyone who has ever been falsely accused of something knows the shock and disbelief that their integrity has not only been questioned, but tarnished just because the false accusation was made at all. Such accusations are the tool of true evil, not truth. It is easier for those without character to pull down the innocent, than it is to admit they lack the character to acknowledge the talent and hard work of others. If Landis was 'doping' with Testosterone or anything else, why would it not show up in the approximately 20 other tests, both random and during races throughout 2006? Are you really thinking the tests are so "reliable"... how could he avoid detection all those times, and then fail? If anything, it proves the tests are unreliable, or that he was clean for all those other wins. Which is it? If you took the same test 20 times, and passed it 19 times, then failed the last one, would you expect people to accuse you of cheating but only getting caught once, or would you expect people to conclude that you had an unusual day, as you had already proven yourself with such a strong, consistent performance history? If Landis was 'doping' why not just do it so well that the horrible day he had could not have happened? |
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As much as I want to believe in Floyd I keep asking myself if he has these naturally high levels of Testosterone why didn't that show up on the other 5 tests he had to take during the Tour and why hasn't it shown up in all the other races he's been in? Where there's smoke there's fire and I'm afraid we got an inferno in this one!
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My understanding is that what "flagged" the test was the imbalance in the ratio between testosterone and epitosterone in the urine sample. The new 2006 limit is 1:4, down from the 2005 limit of 1:6 (WADA's website has the complete list of banned substances, ratios, etc., etc.).
This change tells me that perhaps this test is not so terribly accurate if we are not actually measuring testosterone, but rather a RATIO between two hormones which act to speed up and slow down repair of the male body, somewhat like the accelerator and brake pedals... and the acceptable level can be dropped that much. Just how accurate is this testing, and what is the accuracy record of this particular lab outside Paris? TBD has given me a lot to think about. |
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A world class athlete has higher testosterone than you or I. That makes them world class. To imagine Floyd Landis would come off the biggest choke in current history, and spank everyone else the following day, and NOT have elevated ratios is what baffles me. Of course his levels were high. Too bad current testing instruments are more sensitive than world class athlete hormone fluctuations had been thought. Makes one wonder how much reasearch went into the "normal limits" designation given the 4:1 ratio. It is easy to check for signs of doping using an isotope assay. The only way to really tell if someone is cheating is to test everyone,everyday, and study everything.Then, after years of double-blind, peer review,reproducable evidence we can say what "normal limits are. Until then it looks like Floyd Landis wears yellow.
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that comment is just too darn long |
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Not only a long comment, but ignorant of fact - the US legal system didn't invent the presumption of innocence - the system follows the principles of the Westminster System, employed in England for centuries.
Forget the childish bleating about false accusations - Landis is a drug cheat - deal with it. Casting stones at the 'Europeans' won't change that. Time to wake up and smell the coffee, I'm afraid. |
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Too Long from NJ... you are right, but I had been saving it up like a rider on a 120K mountain breakaway, so the concentration had built up! ;)
Buster, your comments are right on, I didn't have room to go on forever and add that in.:) I think Floyd is probably innocent, both in general character and regarding these accusations/apparent test results. Unfortunately, since the "B" sample was obtained from the same bladder at the same time, it will probably return the same result as the "A", unless the "A" was truly flubbed or tainted. Thus, Floyd may be publicly disgraced without real science/evidence even further, and may never clear his name... trying to prove a negative. The ordeal Tyler Hamilton has gone through is unfortunately looking likely. |
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TBD you are gracious in accepting the criticism concerning length of post...but your point is well taken. how though, do we explain the further evidence, the existence of synthetic testosterone? check out what is starting to show on the news wire...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/... |
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Please be careful in your personalizing of posts. If you notice, I neither specified U.S.(stated North America out of respect and recognition of our great neighbor to the North), nor did I state or imply that the U.S. legal system 'invented' the concept. Such concepts did actually get formalized in the modern age first in Europe, during a period called the Enlightenment, but even then, they were nothing new. Such essential philosophical concepts can be witnessed in Greek and Byzantinian (sp) orthodoxy. "childish bleating...casting stones..." Hope your 'legal system' is there for you if you are ever in such circumstances. I think intelligent readers of this topic know who is casting stones. "In Canada, section 11(d) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states: "Any person charged with an offence has the right ... to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal." |
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Thanks for the link. Will review all information with an open mind, as always. My admitted bias is that I accept the evidence of a person's actions and attitudes as more valid than rumor, speculation, propogated and expanded misinformation, and unreliable "scientific" testing. How often the press wind up 'getting it wrong' in the headlines, and burying the retraction or correction deep in the OpEd weeks/months/years later. A real world example of 'getting it wrong' just happened to an associate. He was informed by the police that his cousin had been killed. Turned out the cousin had lent the car to an unfortunate friend. I thought the police were supposed to be very, very careful about such things, and get it right. Guess U.S. Police jump to conclusions kind of like Vancouvans. Dig. If the police, who do not have scoop incentives and deadlines cannot take the steps to make sure they get it right, how can we expect the press to do so? |
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Uh oh, now we're REALLY off topic, so goodnight. BTW just saw a recent news update noting that Landis had SYNTHETIC testosterone in his sample. It's a bit hard to generate that naturally (unless you Americans know something the rest of us don't, eh?). Looks to all and sundry (and that includes those 'intelligent readers') like that claim of presumed innocence just evaporated...
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Actually, real world examples of 'getting it wrong' are more applicable to this topic now more than ever. Which newspaper was cited as publishing that article... oh yeah, the same one that printed unfounded, false, made-up stories for years. Eventually they fired someone for it. Something that was never there cannot evaporate... at least be logical and consistent. |
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All the best to our northwestern brothers, residents of one of Seattle's nicest suberbs.
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I certainly agree, reading the posts and news threads on this subject alone should reaffirm to everyone that journalism is never completely objective. Europe was reporting that second sample was not requested by Floyd, but they are in a diferent time zone, a consideration, I should say. Remember that poor security guard at the olympics accused of bombing the place? Wrong guy, his life ruined, oops!! Don't believe everything you read journalists are swayed by sensationalism, and breaking the story first |
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Why does everyone assume everyone that touched the sample (EXCEPT Floyd) is ? It would not be hard to tamper with it. Floyd is still until proven guilty. |
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Ah yes TBD - stick your head in the conspiracy sand when confronted with the facts. It's your logic that's is fuzzy I'm afraid - Landis claimed innocence ("it's natural testosterone!"), now the tests indicate synthetic testosterone; the fellow is 'telling porkie pies'....ergo, the evaporation. Simple physics really.
And as to the "someone must have tampered with the sample" thing - holy cow! As they say, "there are none so blind than those that will not see..." |
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