Mormon church enters Calif. gay marriage fight

WTF wrote:

<quoted text>
You gays are trying to act out by making your sexual preference socially acceptable. It should not be socially acceptable. You want the general population to know and be okay with what you do in bed. I don't care if you and your partner go to a movie, I do care that you want our state to see and accept that you like to have sex with men. Keep your SH** in private.

I'm not asking for your approval nor do I care if you approve. Many people object to who their friends or children married but they still can get married. All I want is equal rights to a marriage license. Oh yea what makes you assume I have sex with men?

Don Joe wrote:

<quoted text>
There are none so blind as those who will not see. There is plenty of evidence for everything I stated. If you don't see any of it, it is because you will not see it.

then post it here..

123CandS wrote:

<quoted text>
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I found only 55,700 responses.
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 55,700 for "red cross"+torture+children+p rison.(0.14 seconds)
Search ResultsChildren were held at Iraq Torture prison - Abu Ghraib Prisoner ...WASHINGTON -- Children held by the U.S. Army at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison included one ... investigators from the International Committee of the Red Cross....
www.infowars.com/articles/ps/abughraib_prison... - 34k - Cached - Similar pages
Torture and Prison Abuse - UN Security Council - Global Policy ForumAlso See GPF general page on Torture and Prison Abuse .... Jakob Kellenberger, the President of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC),...
www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/tor... - 44k - Cached - Similar pages
Detainees Suffer Terror at US Hands; Red Cross Says Torture Part ...Red Cross Reports Abuse Widespread Says Torture Part of Deliberate Tactic ... U.S. military prison guards at the Abu Ghraib detention facility in Baghdad....
www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0512-10.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
Judith Scherr: Haiti Children's PrisonThe US Military and Torture: the View of a Former Interrogator. Brian Concannon, Jr..... The children said the Red Cross has come to visit them....
www.counterpunch.org/scherr10072005.html - 57k - Cached - Similar pages
Khiam Prison -Israels Torture Den in Southern Lebanon (1985-2000)I found his crutch in Khiam prison yesterday, along with piles of Red Cross letters from prisoners -- letters which the guards from Israel's now-defunct ...
www.inminds.com/khiam-prison.html - 53k - Cached - Similar pages
Briton tells of ordeal in Bush's torture jail | World news | The ...Begg has not seen a lawyer, a Red Cross official or any member of his family either ... and took his wife and three young children with him to Afghanistan....
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/dec/29/terroris... - 83k - Cached - Similar pages
Reprinted, with original translation, by Traprock Peace CenterReport concerning maltreated children in the torture-prison..... we turned to the International Committee of the Red Cross, whose helpers inspected Um Qasr ...
www.grassrootspeace.org/iraqi_child_prisoners... - 102k - Cached - Similar pages
Torture of Iraqi POWs"The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) says the abuse it found in Iraq's US-run prisons was systematic and amounted to torture,...
www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/tortur... - 36k - Cached - Similar pages

After reading through these websites, I saw only one reference of child torture which was reported by an Iraqi TV reporter (his party affiliation was left off) of a young girl. There were 0 references of the "many" children that were killed as Don Joe asserted. There were also 0 references of the "many" children that died at Guantanamo.

Even Don Joe has to admit that these websites are shills for the "anti-bush" crowd. One actually has a story that ties Bush and Hitler together.

One website is about Israeli torture, not sure how this is applicable.

Let me know when you find verifiable proof from reputable sources of rampant systematic government approved child torture and deaths as Don Joe has accused. Until then I will hold off on the wholesale condemnation of my country.

Hatred often makes us see things that are not there to justify our hatred.(That is my attempt to be profound as Don Joe has tried, similarly to Don Joe I have fallen short.)

anonymous G wrote:

<quoted text>No REAL CHRISTIANS will pray for you & your lost soul.

Real Christians pray for all lost souls, even ace's,

123CandS wrote:

<quoted text>
----------
I found only 55,700 responses.
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 55,700 for "red cross"+torture+children+p rison.(0.14 seconds)
Search ResultsChildren were held at Iraq Torture prison - Abu Ghraib Prisoner ...WASHINGTON -- Children held by the U.S. Army at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison included one ... investigators from the International Committee of the Red Cross....
www.infowars.com/articles/ps/abughraib_prison... - 34k - Cached - Similar pages
Torture and Prison Abuse - UN Security Council - Global Policy ForumAlso See GPF general page on Torture and Prison Abuse .... Jakob Kellenberger, the President of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC),...
www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/tor... - 44k - Cached - Similar pages
Detainees Suffer Terror at US Hands; Red Cross Says Torture Part ...Red Cross Reports Abuse Widespread Says Torture Part of Deliberate Tactic ... U.S. military prison guards at the Abu Ghraib detention facility in Baghdad....
www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0512-10.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
Judith Scherr: Haiti Children's PrisonThe US Military and Torture: the View of a Former Interrogator. Brian Concannon, Jr..... The children said the Red Cross has come to visit them....
www.counterpunch.org/scherr10072005.html - 57k - Cached - Similar pages
Khiam Prison -Israels Torture Den in Southern Lebanon (1985-2000)I found his crutch in Khiam prison yesterday, along with piles of Red Cross letters from prisoners -- letters which the guards from Israel's now-defunct ...
www.inminds.com/khiam-prison.html - 53k - Cached - Similar pages
Briton tells of ordeal in Bush's torture jail | World news | The ...Begg has not seen a lawyer, a Red Cross official or any member of his family either ... and took his wife and three young children with him to Afghanistan....
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/dec/29/terroris... - 83k - Cached - Similar pages
Reprinted, with original translation, by Traprock Peace CenterReport concerning maltreated children in the torture-prison..... we turned to the International Committee of the Red Cross, whose helpers inspected Um Qasr ...
www.grassrootspeace.org/iraqi_child_prisoners... - 102k - Cached - Similar pages
Torture of Iraqi POWs"The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) says the abuse it found in Iraq's US-run prisons was systematic and amounted to torture,...
www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/tortur... - 36k - Cached - Similar pages

Looked at your "evidence" saw alot of hearsay, ineuendo 'unnamed sources' much of the "evidence" relies on the words of those released, since we have the 'al quadia' play book, which says to its members, what if detained and released, run to the press and claim torture, the more harsh the better, since the media won't try to vet the information even to the extent they won't ask to see the wounds. I did see a list of things that were allegedly done to detainees, of the 13 I only found 1 or 2 that, if spun in just the right way, could be catigorized as torture.

TimeforChange23 wrote:

<quoted text>
After reading through these websites, I saw only one reference of child torture which was reported by an Iraqi TV reporter (his party affiliation was left off) of a young girl. There were 0 references of the "many" children that were killed as Don Joe asserted. There were also 0 references of the "many" children that died at Guantanamo.
Even Don Joe has to admit that these websites are shills for the "anti-bush" crowd. One actually has a story that ties Bush and Hitler together.
One website is about Israeli torture, not sure how this is applicable.
Let me know when you find verifiable proof from reputable sources of rampant systematic government approved child torture and deaths as Don Joe has accused. Until then I will hold off on the wholesale condemnation of my country.
Hatred often makes us see things that are not there to justify our hatred.(That is my attempt to be profound as Don Joe has tried, similarly to Don Joe I have fallen short.)

I thought you had said twice you would no longer respond because it is off topic here. But since you keep asking I will give you the information.

Your discrediting any source as invalid because they criticize bush is not valid.(( You can't believe that source because they are a leftist group, you can tell they are a leftist group because they criticize bush.)

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/0...

This link will provide the connection between the torture that we all know occurred and the bush administration. It wasn't bad apples, it was bush. You may notice (if you will open your eyes) that there is no age limit on the "enhanced interrogation." They do have children in those prisons designated enemy combatants and they suffer the same fate as adults, without exception.

Certainly you can see the advantage to bush for keeping his torture tactics quiet. But he has had his legal team working to make up legal justification for this clearly illegal activity. Why would they need justification if they weren't doing it? Do you really think bush will come out and say that 23 people died due to "enhanced interrogation?" Or will he make up some other excuse, or just ignore the dead.

If a member of your family were treated like this, by some foreign power, would you turn the other cheek?

There is no logical relationship between marriage and anything homosexual. The ridiculous political charade of homosexual "marriage" remains exposed as the fraud that it is.

No significant percent of homosexuals has "married" in ANY country that permits the oxymoron.

Homosexuals are NOT the same as other people. They seldom form longterm exclusive
relationships, often completely obsess on perversion, and have much elevated rates of many diseases and social ills. THIS is the reality.
No homosexual "marriage" is recognized by the US Government. We have a democratically established national definition of marriage as solely between one man and one woman.

No law could ever make even one homosexual relationship into a real marriage. It is of course ludicrous to claim that "equal rights" are involved in trying to disenfranchise others on the legal definition of marriage.

Homosexual "marriage" is a complete FRAUD.
Two unequals will NEVER be equal.

No homosexual relationship shares the reasons for government involvement in real marriage, and the two are VERY different.

No homosexual relationships is the "equal" of a real marriage.

Marriage is indeed very different from any homosexual relationship:

Here are some MAJOR differences between real marriage and any sort of homosexual relationship, especially regarding any governmental involvement:
Like it or not, marriage and family are the basic building block of American Society.

No significant percent of homosexuals has "married" in ANY country that allows the contrived oxymoron and only about 1.6% of the US population claims to be "GLBT" anyway, so homosexual "marriage" fails on this one!
Children are the usual and natural result of real marriage. No child will EVER be born as a direct result of a homosexual relationship, so homomarriage fails on this one, too!

Having both a mother and father in the home is one of the best statistical predictors of a child's future success in life. No homosexual relationship can provide this.

Marriage is recognized as moral and necessary by nearly all Americans. Americans overwhelmingly reject homosexual "marriage" and most find homosexual acts to be immoral and damaging.

To Mose, as a straight, businessman, active in my church & community, grandfater of 9, and with no gays in my immediate family, all I can say to your comments is bull@#%&. I prefer to stand on the side of love.

I love how many people claim the 'majority' when they take their opinions solely from their friends whom probably will think the same way they do or they wouldnt be friends. If you go to progressive states like California you'll probably find many people either dont care or are in favor of gay marraige.

Remember when you make claims of 'the vast majority' you have to have information from every area of the country and every ethnic and social group, your opinions do not make them the 'majority' opinion.

This is a matter that should be dealt with state to state as all marraige laws are done on a state to state basis. There is no reason why this subject should be any different, if you think there is than please share it and be sure to explain why it merits a national law over a state law.

Don Joe wrote:

<quoted text>
I thought you had said twice you would no longer respond because it is off topic here. But since you keep asking I will give you the information.

You are right I did, but like Obama I can change my mind.

Don Joe wrote:

<quoted text>
Your discrediting any source as invalid because they criticize bush is not valid.(( You can't believe that source because they are a leftist group, you can tell they are a leftist group because they criticize bush.)
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/0...

That is funny, aren't you doing the exact same thing? You are discrediting any source that does not report alleged abuses.(You can't believe that source because they are GOP shills you can tell they are GOP Shills because they don't report abuses you allege) See how that works both ways.

Now I quoted CNN which the vast majority of people understand is anything but a GOP shill. You quoted this website that is "Breaking News and VIEWS for the Progressive Community" Yeah they are unbiased.

Don Joe wrote:

<quoted text>
This link will provide the connection between the torture that we all know occurred and the bush administration. It wasn't bad apples, it was bush.
You may notice (if you will open your eyes) that there is no age limit on the "enhanced interrogation." They do have children in those prisons designated enemy combatants and they suffer the same fate as adults, without exception.
Certainly you can see the advantage to bush for keeping his torture tactics quiet. But he has had his legal team working to make up legal justification for this clearly illegal activity. Why would they need justification if they weren't doing it? Do you really think bush will come out and say that 23 people died due to "enhanced interrogation?" Or will he make up some other excuse, or just ignore the dead.
If a member of your family were treated like this, by some foreign power, would you turn the other cheek?

Again, you are making a jump that we are torturing and killing innocent children. That is your accusation. NOTHING you have submitted has proven that. Not even the liberal website you provided stated that to be true. You took a phrase and interpreted to mean what you want it to mean in order to reinforce your hatred of Bush.

I simply want proof from a reputable source of child torture and killings. If that proof comes to light, I will gladly join you in condemning Bush and whoever else is involved.

Of course if Bush has signed off on child torture and murder he isn't going to admit it, but if you honestly do not think that the media especially here in America (with the possible exception of Fox News) would not report provable child torture and murder that was condoned by President Bush then you truly have no grasp of anything.

No, of course I would not want my relatives tortured, I also do not want our country attacked again. Its a fine line isn't it. What if some level of torture could prevent another 9/11?

War is dirty. Those who act outside of orders should be prosecuted (and many have). Unfortunately, sometimes you have to sink to the level of your enemies to defeat them...I know you won't like that, but it is unfortunately the truth.

Good luck on whatever it is you are attempting to accomplish.

Don Joe wrote:

<quoted text>
I thought you had said twice you would no longer respond because it is off topic here. But since you keep asking I will give you the information.
Your discrediting any source as invalid because they criticize bush is not valid.(( You can't believe that source because they are a leftist group, you can tell they are a leftist group because they criticize bush.)
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/0...
This link will provide the connection between the torture that we all know occurred and the bush administration. It wasn't bad apples, it was bush. You may notice (if you will open your eyes) that there is no age limit on the "enhanced interrogation." They do have children in those prisons designated enemy combatants and they suffer the same fate as adults, without exception.
Certainly you can see the advantage to bush for keeping his torture tactics quiet. But he has had his legal team working to make up legal justification for this clearly illegal activity. Why would they need justification if they weren't doing it? Do you really think bush will come out and say that 23 people died due to "enhanced interrogation?" Or will he make up some other excuse, or just ignore the dead.
If a member of your family were treated like this, by some foreign power, would you turn the other cheek?

the groups you tout are hard to believe not only because they are far left, but they very short on specifics and names, and for my any way, most of these groups believe if you go beyond name rank and serial number, it is torture, and that just aint the case. The fact the they use "torture memo" tells me that they are baised, and their views must be judged knowing they are baised.

Ben wrote:

I love how many people claim the 'majority' when they take their opinions solely from their friends whom probably will think the same way they do or they wouldnt be friends. If you go to progressive states like California you'll probably find many people either dont care or are in favor of gay marraige.
Remember when you make claims of 'the vast majority' you have to have information from every area of the country and every ethnic and social group, your opinions do not make them the 'majority' opinion.
This is a matter that should be dealt with state to state as all marraige laws are done on a state to state basis. There is no reason why this subject should be any different, if you think there is than please share it and be sure to explain why it merits a national law over a state law.

The people of CA are against it they voted for the ban, the CA supreme court went against what the people wanted and overturned their vote.

Ben wrote:

I love how many people claim the 'majority' when they take their opinions solely from their friends whom probably will think the same way they do or they wouldnt be friends. If you go to progressive states like California you'll probably find many people either dont care or are in favor of gay marraige.
Remember when you make claims of 'the vast majority' you have to have information from every area of the country and every ethnic and social group, your opinions do not make them the 'majority' opinion.
This is a matter that should be dealt with state to state as all marraige laws are done on a state to state basis. There is no reason why this subject should be any different, if you think there is than please share it and be sure to explain why it merits a national law over a state law.

IRS tax and inheritance rules. If the state you live in allows marriage then the IRS should recognize that.

Ben wrote:

I love how many people claim the 'majority' when they take their opinions solely from their friends whom probably will think the same way they do or they wouldnt be friends. If you go to progressive states like California you'll probably find many people either dont care or are in favor of gay marraige.
Remember when you make claims of 'the vast majority' you have to have information from every area of the country and every ethnic and social group, your opinions do not make them the 'majority' opinion.
This is a matter that should be dealt with state to state as all marraige laws are done on a state to state basis. There is no reason why this subject should be any different, if you think there is than please share it and be sure to explain why it merits a national law over a state law.

just remember the majority of Califorianians voted to keep the definition of marriage one man and one woman, I believe the numbers is 76%.

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
Real Christians pray for all lost souls, even ace's,

I don't hear you praying.
Maybe you're too busy formenting hatred and bigotry under the guise of "morality"?
BTW- as long as I see you christians praying to win a ball game, etc., instead of praying for some child with cancer, then you'll remain a sad excuse for a christian.

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
just remember the majority of Califorianians voted to keep the definition of marriage one man and one woman, I believe the numbers is 76%.

That was true about inter-racial marriage also.
You guys lost THAT battle, lol.

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
just remember the majority of Califorianians voted to keep the definition of marriage one man and one woman, I believe the numbers is 76%.

Just remember the US is a republic, not a democracy.

Ace wrote:

<quoted text>
I don't hear you praying.
Maybe you're too busy formenting hatred and bigotry under the guise of "morality"?
BTW- as long as I see you christians praying to win a ball game, etc., instead of praying for some child with cancer, then you'll remain a sad excuse for a christian.

And you won't hear me pray, but I still pray for you. Why do you think I can't pray for both?? God really doesn't care how often or for what you pray, just that you are praying.

Dram wrote:

<quoted text>
Just remember the US is a republic, not a democracy.

and the people of Cal will have another chance to make their voices heard and ammend their constitution to maintain the traditional definition of Marriage.

antonio farinha wrote:

http://www.network54.com/Forum /440382/
http://www.aporrealos.com/~aporrea/forum/view...
http://www.aporrealos.com/forum/viewforum.php...
http://www.aporrealos.com/forum/
http://www.aporrea.org/

and the point is??? all but one is in a foreign language, and the one in English I can't find a link to the topic or our current shide track.