Judge it!i see your point however the people in foreign countries doing manufacturing do not even make minimum wage from what i understand. now even if they agree to work for less how are they supposed to survive with even basic needs such as food, and housing. I dont know your situation but with 5 kids being a stay at home mom (im so jealous)your husband would have to have a pretty good job. even if people go back to school there are still not that many white collar positions available to support the people out of work.<quoted text>
It seems like that is what we have been seeing. Where we had only Americans competing for say 1,000,000 (any number) Americans competing for the auto jobs, with the world economy opening up, there are 3,000,000 (any number) foreign workers nowseeking those jobs as well, and they will take them for a WHOLE lot less. Americans had better get used to the idea that those jobs are not coming back at the old wages, and decide if they want to make less, or get into a new field and by going back to school.
WOOD-TV Grand Rapids and Michigan
Should labor unions be disbanded?
- Posted in the WOOD-TV Grand Rapids and Michigan Forum
Comments (Page 10)
Joined: Jul 9, 2008 Comments: 159 |
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I agree with Obama, companyes that move out of the country, seeking cheap labor, should not be getting tax breaks.
McCain isn't going to change that and with all these business owners on this forum convincing people that this is the way to go with bring this down even further. Look around when you get total control from the Repuublicans, you get RICH (few) and Poor (many). As President Bush said our economy is doing fine ( his people)!!!! |
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“Dogma is dangerous” Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Comments: 1643 |
What rights do they hold? The concept of a centralized 'employment center' is off-target, but since you don't really have any experience with unions, you don't really know any better. A lot of what you surmise about unions and how they work is incorrect. And since when did high wages become a "problem" as you put it. I don't see any problems with having unions. I do, however, see a problem with the decrease of unions and the attacks on them. |
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“Ich bin genau wie du”
Joined: Jul 3, 2008 Comments: 488 |
Many people don't think about this but, the products in other countries don't cost the same as they do here. If you hear of somebody making $5.00 an hour in another country, you must take into consideration the exchange rate for one, and a little thing called 'purchasing price parody'(PPP). Thier basket of goods may be less or more as compared to our basket of goods. For example, when you go to Germany for a week, you can purchase double the amount of groceries with $100 as you could here in the US with $100.(This is purely an analogy). When I was in Venice, Italy, I paid 5 euro for a regular bottle of water (approximately 7.00 US dollars). That same bottle of water would cost maybe a dollar or so here. However, when I visited Prague, I bought an entire meal of Goulash (very good by the way!) with dumplings and a coke for 5 Forint (the hungarian currency). This equates to $.033715 in the US. Thier minimum wage is currently around $2.91 US dollars/hour.....but it goes alot further than in the US. |
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Judged: 
1 Arctic is an idiot. The wages are a problem when you become used to them and don't realize that your competitors are making better products, for less money...now all of the sudden, your employer can't be profitable anymore because the overhead costs associated with your premium wages and benefits. When times are good, you guys think it's awesome, and your management was too stupid to see competition winning awards and making inroads to your customers. When the titanic (GM, Ford, Chrylser) hits the iceberg, you guys seem to be scooping water into the boat as fast as you can....then complain that there aren't enough life rafts to go around. |
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“Ich bin genau wie du”
Joined: Jul 3, 2008 Comments: 488 |
The rights of the unions are all in the contracts that they sign with the respective company. You didn't read my really long post did you?(We'll call it 'The Post'...lol) Read it, and everything is explained thoroughly about how the inflated wages of the union is problematic. Just read! Be open to a different view even if it doesn't change yours. Atleast you will see were I, and many others in the economic community, are coming from. We're going to have to end this conversation by August 12th....I have a seminars and classes starting!!!:) |
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“THINK before you speak”
Joined: Apr 2, 2008 Comments: 506 mayberry usa ISP: Allegan, MI |
The cost of living and lifestyle are totally different in other parts of the world. For instance, Mexico has a minimum wage. It is about $40.00 a WEEK (last I heard). The ordinary people there do not live like we do. We travel there every year, and while I love it there ( a very simple, calm kind of living), I am so thankful to be back home. We do not stay in a touristy area, so the impression I get is very different than if you go to the resort areas. Food is much cheaper there, as are homes ( and those are generally not as nice as ours). As for my husband, he works in a non union shop, and he is not white collar. He has a second job ( 4 hours) in another shop 5 nights a week. It can be done, don't give up :] |
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“Ich bin genau wie du”
Joined: Jul 3, 2008 Comments: 488 |
I enjoyed the Titanic analogy! |
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“THINK before you speak”
Joined: Apr 2, 2008 Comments: 506 mayberry usa ISP: Allegan, MI |
The jobs that people will need to be training for may not be in manufacturing. I think the jobs of the soon to be future will be in energy, health care, etc. Mi got nailed because of all of the auto industry jobs leaving, and the rise of the foreign car companies. There will be jobs out there, but we may have left the days of people working in one field their whole lives. As technology changes, and our lives change because of it, we will need to adapt. |
Seriously, I can not figure out where you and/or the people you are talking to get this. Yes if the employee is an employee of the union and they contract out to companies. To be a union member employee in a company...well I just can't imagine ANY company signing over their rights to hire to the union. Maybe what your hearing is a employee the company hires into the unionized portion of the company has to become a union member? That too is only if the company signed the, I don't remember exactly what the name of it is right now but it's an agreed upon clause between the company and the union that says every employee hired into the shop let say, has to become a member of the union. Even this clause is not mandatory by law. It MUST be agreed on by the company and union. Otherwise there can be union and non-union working in the same jobs. Before some go jumping on that one, my brother-in-law just left a (large) company in GR that the union membership in the shop was not compulsory. There were both union and non-union employees. |
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“Dogma is dangerous” Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Comments: 1643 |
Judged: 
1 I know what their rights are and how they function. I have read various union contracts and know exactly how it works. This is how I know a lot of what you surmise is off, but you're giving it the best guess that you can based on the biased info you have and lack of real experience. There is no such thing as "inflated wages of the union" as you say. This is merely right-wing big-business propaganda which is disguised to look impartial on those websites you read. It came as no surprise to me when I looked up the source of your "information" and found it to be written by one of George W. Bush's appointed cronies. You specifically used the word "proof" to describe it. Maybe you haven't noticed in the last 7.5 years that America's economy has been in a downward spiral under republican policy, and yet you swallow their propaganda, hook, line, and sinker, and call it "proof." There is no way that the solution to our economic problems is to reduce wages and working conditions and rights. Instead of trying to justify tearing down union wages, rights, benefits, and accomplishments, why don't you work to raise the non-union standard up? |
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“Dogma is dangerous” Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Comments: 1643 |
This is a good example of someone who is jealous of unions jobs. |
The way I understood it, the employees of the car companies such as GM had to be in the union. If they were able to have union and non-union workers working the same job in the same factory, then why on earth would GM ever hire another union worker when they have to pay those workers more in compensation than the non-union workers? I can understand that there may be non-union managers and union floor workers, but not union and non-union floor workers. |
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Judged: 
1 Oddly enough, the information I provided you with is studied in an intro economics course. "The Post" was a condensed version of a couple of chapters one would have to read when attending such a course. It amazes me how many people have a lack of understanding of economics. It's not just "Bush Cronies" who agree with this analysis....it's one of the foundations of microeconomics! These are PROVEN theories that I have supplied for you. If you would like more proof, go to your local library and check out an intro microecon book.....any one you want. It doesn't matter who has written it, this is widely accepted science (Not Opinion!). That's all I can say. If you continue to be ignorant of the facts (I'm not calling you ignorant...it's being used as a verb) then I can't help that. The least you can do is read up so that you may educate your children and grandchildren on day on the world they live in and how the economy works so they can take advantage of the situation. Besides, I nor anybody else will have to decrease the inflated wages of the unions. Soon, the pressure from the global market will force wages to it's natural equilibrium state....or, those companies will cease to exist. We're already seeing this happen. The more unions the US has, the less competitive we can be on a global scale, the further behind we will fall.(If you would like proof on this, go investigate the labor market in Germany and how it has affected thier unemployment and job openings!) As a grad student, my research will help the US as a whole, be sure of that! And my crazy postings explaining the logic behind the microeconomy that you look down upon will be the foundation, as it is with any economic reasoning/theory/applied research. You should really go look some of this stuff up. You might find it very interesting to learn the mechanics of your economy. |
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Exactly. I worked for an "at will" non-union employer for over 30 years. As a manager, I was told by my superior to always treat everyone fairly and consistently. No one that I know of was ever fired without just cause. And then only after given several opportunities to correct whatever problem it was. It is expensive to go through the screening, hiring and training process. Many companies are motivated by this expense to carefully screen new hires to get the best people. They want to retain their employees. Firing people willy nilly is too expensive. There's no secret to keeping your job. Simply perform it as expected. Hire good people, treat them right, pay them fairly and they will stay forever. Being treated fairly is more important to most people than pay. If you don't believe that ask your people what is most important to them on the job. Pay will be down the list a ways. A good employer doesn't need a union. Bad employers do. |
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As I said, there is that clause at the beginning of the contract that states employees will, or do not have to, be union members. Usually it says they have to be. Still that is an optional agreed upon clause of the contract...that usually stands as long as there is a union in the company. Were my brother-in-law worked the union and non-union worked in the same shop the non-union employees got the same wages and benefits as the union employee. Why then would anyone want to be a union employee? Because they did have rights of seniority that the non-union didn't. And that is what finally got my brother-in-law. He was let go when there were less seniority employees, that were union, who were retained. There we other union advantages but not as important as that one...in the end. Like I said, that is unusual but there is no law, that I am currently aware of, that says that clause MUST be there....as far as all employees must be union. It's been a while so I am open to authoritative correction if that is still the case. |
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"The wages are a problem when you become used to them and don't realize that your competitors are making better products, for less money...now all of the sudden, your employer can't be profitable anymore because the overhead costs associated with your premium wages and benefits" Okay, now really, isn't it managements job to keep track of the competition and to know if a better product is being made and being sold for less money? You are serious that that is the job of the worker(s)? See through all these years I thought it was managements job TO MANAGE their business. If all they are doing is sliding by then maybe they deserve to go under. And if they are managing their business that way they WILL go under no matter how little they pay their employees. |
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Unions are flushing Michigan down the crapper!
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I find that interesting. So the difference between union and non-union was essentially union dues perhaps. As a worker, I would want the security of being in this union as I'm sure (or atleast I hope) most took advantage of. As an Economist, I would be a little skeptical of this scenerio as the norm. I did a study in Germany on thier labor market which is highly unionized and it is nearly impossible to fire even the laziest of employees. The union laws protect there workers beyond the extent which is reasonable. In order for an employer to fire an employee, they must drag the employee to court while still paying that employee benefits for not working. Some 95% of the court cases hear in labor court side with the employee at which point the employer is ruled to pay the now ex-employee a large sum of money for the seperation. Needless to say, this inhibits employers from employing b/c it can be a costly mistake. I'm not sure how hard it is to fire union workers here in the States, but from what I hear, it isn't very easy. It would be nice if unions could provide some sense of security within boundaries to thier employees while maintaining a market wage and benefits.(Which I assume the people in your brother's plant were recieving) Thanks for sharing! |
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“THINK before you speak”
Joined: Apr 2, 2008 Comments: 506 mayberry usa ISP: Allegan, MI |
I will look this info up.It is very interesting to me. Being at home with 5 kids can be less than mentally stimulating, and I LOVE to learn new things. You seem very knowledgeable, so I am going to risk sounding silly and ask a question. You say that this info in the post is the foundation of econ. Now, when I googled supply side economics, I found some articles were pro supply side and some were negative. Where does the foundation end and subjectivity come in? After all, people on opposite ends of the political spectrum disagree on solutions to our current problems. Thank you. The former teacher (me) looks forward to her teacher's(you) answer. I agree everyone should understand how our economy works. I was not required to take econ. for my degree, and I wish I had. |
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