Gun rally held in Hastings

Not legal everywhere wrote:

City ordinances cannot override a State law as in saying a CCW(CPL) permit is not legal. They also cannot go against the Constitution which only says you have the right to own a gun, not carry it open in public. Michigan allows open carry, however, cities can and do make ordinances that go further(more strict) than the state law.(Example, there's no state law that says you can't play your stereo loud at night.) But there are city ordinances against this as it is disturbing the peace of the neighborhood, etc.
I am a police officer and have arrested people for both disturbing the peace and carrying/flurishing a firearm in public. I have never had a problem with anyone with a CCW permit. Law enforcement is not worried about these people. It's the people carrying guns illegally that they are after. If you want to carry a gun, get a CCW permit. It's that easy.

First of all, thank you for your intellectual honesty in saying that Concealed Pistol License holders are NOT part of the problem. If rank-and-file law enforcement officers are beginning to recognize this, then real progress if finally being made.

Part of your statement was troubling, however.
You indicated that you have arrested subjects for carrying in public. If that is true, you might want to take a look at Michigan P.A. 319 of 1990:

FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
Act 319 of 1990

Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
Sec. 2.

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991

This is the famous (or infamous, depending on your view) "preemption clause" that pro-firearm advocates commonly refer to. Thus, under state law, the ability of a local unit of government to regulate firearms is limited to establishing rules or prohibitions on the DISCHARGE of firearms.

After "Shall-Issue" (for Concealed Pistol Licenses) became state law, several cities, including the City of Ferndale attempted to establish its own ordinances prohibiting concealed carry in certain public spaces.

The city's effort failed because the wording of P.A. 319 of 1990 is very clear, and the court saw it that way as well.

So... if your arrest was based solely on the fact that the subject in question was carrying in public, you violated state law. My guess is that if you were able to make the charges stick, you had to base the arrest more on a theory of "disturbing the peace" as opposed to simple open carry.

If your arrest WAS based completely on the open carry aspect, and the charges actually stuck, then the defendant either had a really lousy lawyer, or had other, more serious legal problems to contend with. Or maybe he didn't even have a lawyer, and pleaded guilty out of simple ignorance.

For what it's worth, I DO believe that concealed carry is far less complicated and risky than open carry, but hey... the law is the law.

I guess I should add that cities and municipalities have enacted all kinds of ordinances attempting to regulate possession and carrying of firearms.

In theory, these ordinances are not enforceable.

Next time you see a sign at a county park prohibiting the carrying of firearms in the park, take a moment to write to the county board of commissioners and ask that the wording be updated to comply with Public Act 319 of 1990.

Don't be surprised when the commissioners scratch their heads, talk to their legal counsel, and then say something along the lines of, "Wow... you mean we really can't prohibit guns in our parks?" After that, take a moment to consider whether or not you want to vote for morons like that again in the next election cycle.

Not legal everywhere wrote:

City ordinances cannot override a State law as in saying a CCW(CPL) permit is not legal. They also cannot go against the Constitution which only says you have the right to own a gun, not carry it open in public. Michigan allows open carry, however, cities can and do make ordinances that go further(more strict) than the state law.(Example, there's no state law that says you can't play your stereo loud at night.) But there are city ordinances against this as it is disturbing the peace of the neighborhood, etc.
I am a police officer and have arrested people for both disturbing the peace and carrying/flurishing a firearm in public. I have never had a problem with anyone with a CCW permit. Law enforcement is not worried about these people. It's the people carrying guns illegally that they are after. If you want to carry a gun, get a CCW permit. It's that easy.

Barney, you scare me. a police officer that does not know the law. The constitution SAYS: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." To bear is to carry. anyone with half a brain can figure that out. Now put your bullet back in your pocket and go play checkers with Opie
LC

Lamont Cranston wrote:

<quoted text>
Barney, you scare me. a police officer that does not know the law. The constitution SAYS: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." To bear is to carry. anyone with half a brain can figure that out. Now put your bullet back in your pocket and go play checkers with Opie
LC

Do not be an **** to the man simply because he does what he is told to do by his superiors. If you feel your Constitutional rights were violated take the city in question to court, but quit giving the police such disrespect they put their lives on the line everyday to protect you.

I live in the city of Hastings. One of the comments posted stated that it was legal to open carry in schools, churches, and other public places. Could someone tell me what age you must be to qualify for a gun permit? I am not against constitutional rights and I believe in the right to protect myself, family, and property but it scares me that all of these comments being posted might be being read by the young people of this town. What are we to do if a 18 year old student shows up at HHS this year with a gun insisting their constitutional right says he can walk around with it all day as long as others can see it? I don't own any guns and am not sure about what the laws are that's why I don't know about legal ages. Thanks to those who are keeping this sight as an information zone and not just bashing others like happens on most of the other Wood TV forums.

Some info please wrote:

I live in the city of Hastings. One of the comments posted stated that it was legal to open carry in schools, churches, and other public places. Could someone tell me what age you must be to qualify for a gun permit? I am not against constitutional rights and I believe in the right to protect myself, family, and property but it scares me that all of these comments being posted might be being read by the young people of this town. What are we to do if a 18 year old student shows up at HHS this year with a gun insisting their constitutional right says he can walk around with it all day as long as others can see it? I don't own any guns and am not sure about what the laws are that's why I don't know about legal ages. Thanks to those who are keeping this sight as an information zone and not just bashing others like happens on most of the other Wood TV forums.

Under state law, Concealed Pistol License holders are still prohibited from carrying in certain areas. These are referred to as "Pistol Free Zones":

Here is the list of where licensees can't legally carry:

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591...

Serious pro-firearm advocates usually refer to these "Pistol Free Zones" as "Criminal Empowerment Zones". This is a politically charged way of speaking, but they might have a point, since mass shootings frequently happen in places like churches and schools, where law-abiding individuals can't carry.

So, if some mentally unstable individual wanted to go to a place with plenty of available victims, AND at the same time be pretty sure that nobody would be armed and capable of stopping him, why not go to a school, which is a Pistol Free Zone?

Certain individuals with additional qualifications are exempt from the pistol free zone rules. I can't find the list at the moment, but generally these are retired law enforcement officers.

Oh yes, I almost forgot your very first question.

An individual must be 21 years old to apply for a Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

Some info please wrote:

I live in the city of Hastings. One of the comments posted stated that it was legal to open carry in schools, churches, and other public places. Could someone tell me what age you must be to qualify for a gun permit? I am not against constitutional rights and I believe in the right to protect myself, family, and property but it scares me that all of these comments being posted might be being read by the young people of this town. What are we to do if a 18 year old student shows up at HHS this year with a gun insisting their constitutional right says he can walk around with it all day as long as others can see it? I don't own any guns and am not sure about what the laws are that's why I don't know about legal ages. Thanks to those who are keeping this sight as an information zone and not just bashing others like happens on most of the other Wood TV forums.

You must be 18 to purchase a long gun (rifle, shotgun, etc.) and 21 to purchase a handgun.

I'm shocked that Mayor Heartwell didn't make a trip down to Hastings to lecture everyone about how guns are bad for people and then confiscate everyone's guns.

rjg wrote:

I don't remember exactly where it was, but there was this town with an absurdly high crime rate. The town government passed a law that everyone (probably over a certain age) had to carry a weapon. Their crime rate went to ZERO! Maybe we need a law like that here.

There was a little town in Texas that did this.

Amazing.. yet cities like DC that pass gun control measures are out of control with gun crimes.

Shoeless Eluder wrote:

So why do I need a CCW permit if I can just strap one on . What a concept open carry who'd a thunk it ,lets see how long this will last before some politician tries to change the law. Cant wait for the fireworks. I would almost bet if I walked down the street with my rifle strapped across my shoulder I would end up in jail or dead.

If you carry in the open as you leave your home and walk down the street ok.

As soon as you get into a motor vehicle and drive with that weapon on your side you need a CCW. Go to your local Sheriff office, Police Dept, State Police or County Clerks office. They all have the manuals on "CCW". Yes the second amendment gives the right to bear arms but there are legitimate laws governing the carrying of a firearm.

Do not put a firearm on your side and walk into a school you will go to jail.

Lamont Cranston wrote:

<quoted text>
Barney, you scare me. a police officer that does not know the law. The constitution SAYS: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." To bear is to carry. anyone with half a brain can figure that out. Now put your bullet back in your pocket and go play checkers with Opie
LC

DO you understand what they ment by a well regulated militia ? DO you know who the people were that were in the militia? It was the average everyday person ,people like farmers , store clerks , etc , anyoneone with a gun. Thats who is part of the Militia ,

So, this is pretty entertaining...

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Leg...

Says a pistol can't be carried in public where it violates local ordinance.

Then they had to come back and 'revisit' their comments in the next edition!

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Leg...

LOL! Are there any circumstances where state law permits local governments to prohibit open carry?

So, where specifically can you not carry openly? I know there are many places you are prohibited from exercising your CCW rights but but what about open?

bob wrote:

So, this is pretty entertaining...
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Leg...
Says a pistol can't be carried in public where it violates local ordinance.
Then they had to come back and 'revisit' their comments in the next edition!
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Leg...
LOL! Are there any circumstances where state law permits local governments to prohibit open carry?
So, where specifically can you not carry openly? I know there are many places you are prohibited from exercising your CCW rights but but what about open?

Great information find there, Bob. The MCRGO vs. Ferndale case cited in the second document you link to was decided when the Michigan Supreme Court elected not to hear Ferndale's appeal of the Michigan Court of Appeals' ruling in favor of MCRGO.

The question you ask is excellent. That might be one to ask MCRGO's lawyers.

bob wrote:

So, where specifically can you not carry openly? I know there are many places you are prohibited from exercising your CCW rights but but what about open?

That one is easier... The first document you link to contains a link to the Michigan Penal Code with a list of prohibited locations for carrying weapons. Open carry is prohibited at these locations, per state law.

Here's a direct link.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/ (S(on2q1p3xrxzjfvb1aekaro55))/ documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-750-234d .pdf

Hmmmmm....

It didn't like my link.

I'll just quote the text itself; The law was written in 1931.

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

Sec. 234d.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

Ugh... it's getting late.
In the list above, the prohibition isn't on "Open Carry" per se, but on any possession of a firearm without a Concealed Pistol License.(the 1931 language reads 'A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.')

The child who was shot by a friend did not get that gun off his daddy's (or mommy's) hip. Responsible gun owners with small children will keep them locked in a case unless they are in use. This being said, we have WAY too many laws for the few idiots to legislate the masses.
Way to go guys! and thanks for bringing this to light!

Lamont Cranston wrote:

<quoted text>
Barney, you scare me. a police officer that does not know the law. The constitution SAYS: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." To bear is to carry. anyone with half a brain can figure that out. Now put your bullet back in your pocket and go play checkers with Opie
LC

Nobody has more respect for ALL emergency service personnel Than I. However, this clown is a bad "cop". He says ( correctly) that no law can supersede State law and then he says he has arrested people for carrying. That sort of action is more Gestapo-like. I cannot respect a person who takes the law into their own hands while hiding behind a badge. Sorry.
LC

Scared wrote:

What kind of message are we sending to our children? Great it's okay to openly care weapons as long as we have a piece of paper! When I drove through town today I felt very uneasy and very unsafe. And believe me, I'm sure this was a political ploy!

Obviously you learned nothing. The point was made that as long as you can legallly own a firearm, you DO NOT need the piece of paper to carry it OPENLY. You took time to make a comment but not read the article?