Minnesota school superintendents say funding system broken

Save money cut out the free breakfasts and free lunches. The parents should be more responsible for their children.

That's right. But should we punish kids for having crappy parents?

Mad in Minnesota wrote:

Save money cut out the free breakfasts and free lunches. The parents should be more responsible for their children.

Wow wrote:

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Mankato Mike, I just think you've stated the obvious and haven't provided any answers.

I am not saying that mentally challenged individuals should not have an education or that they should be segregated. What I am trying to convey is that we need to look at each child and figure out what is best for them and our future as a whole. I have been in class rooms and can attest to these generalizations. In a typical 3rd grade class with 24 students there are 2 children with ESL and 1 that has some form of metal challenge (autism etc.); there are also 2 children that the State of MN would justify as “gifted”. This class would have 1 teacher + 2 teaching assistants. The two teaching assistances spend 100% of their time and the main teacher 9% of their time with the 3 ESL/mentally challenged students. The teacher then spends 90% of their time on the 19 “average” students while the two gifted students get 1% time and either get into trouble or find something else to do with their time. I personally witnessed a third grade boy read all of the Harry Potter books during class time one year, and his parents sent math books and other materials for him to do when he was bored. Did these 2 gifted students get anything from 3rd grade? NO! The teachers have to get the average students prepared to pass mandated tests so the hell with the gifted.

Are whole school system is based on getting the “average” test score up at all costs. Who cares that these kids can’t read and they can’t write. They are all really good at taking multiple choice tests. That will get them far in life. Our nation is determined to dumb down our brightest and make everyone average. This can only lead to our nation’s downfall! It is time to spend the money where it truly is needed. Maybe instead of our schools being a baby sitting service for our gifted and talented children it should be a baby sitting service for our mentally challenged students. The teacher assistants’ time would be better served for our society helping the average and gifted students then the other way around.

NNR wrote:

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The goal of education is not to make geniuses of all people, but to give each student the education that will help them become the best adults they can be. Schools are supposed to be turning out people who become independent, contributing members of society. It goes far beyond scientists and leaders...
When we introduce a hierarchy of "rights" based on who we think will be the most valuable members of society, where does it stop?

I am not advocating taking these children out of the school system. I believe that children that have fixable issues like dyslexia and children with physical handicaps should be taught as “average” students. Let’s face the facts though. In most “western” nations and in most of the other nations that have a free public education system, children are sent to schools that benefit their abilities. In France for instance, a gifted student would be sent to a school that would require more from their abilities and a child with autism would be sent to a facility that dealt with their abilities.

I am sorry to point out the fact that not everyone is mentally created equal. In your opinion, I read “the hell with the smart children”; we should spend every resource available to make sure everyone ends up coming out the same. If Billy can only read at a kindergarten level in 12th grade that is what the schools should teach so everyone is the same. Did you know that only the United States requires mentally challenged children be integrated into the same schools as the average and gifted? It might make the parents of these individuals feel all warm and fuzzy inside but it has been a major contributor to our academic downfall.

To answer the question about, what if it was your child. Your exactly the problem. Looking at problems through emotions never allows for a clear picture. Emotions cause us to see things in a way that leaves out logic. Not to mention that people without kids pay for the schools - something that seems to be overlooked. Also a thought - those of us without kids do care about schools and education. When they talk about closing a school, the first thing that happens is a handful of parents start complaining. Shut up! If enrollment is down and it makes financial sense to close it - then close. If the parents care so much that pay for it yourself. Are you telling me that a kid can't learn anywhere but the school they attend. My point, in around about rant, is that we should view education without all this emotion.

teach - you clearly don't understand the fully formula the state uses. If you look at per pupil spending St paul and minneapolis are at the top. The state does redistribute the funds. In fact it is mandated by law. Case law requires that educational opportunities are equal. That is why rural schools sued and won a few years back. Before you spout your ignorance, so do some research.

There is no MN cap on teachers pay. Each district works out a contract with the bargaining unit. There are several that pay higher. Don't forget benefits that rock and now other reward programs. The real pay problems stem from teacher unions and how that system is set up.

Carl wrote:

Broke?!?!
What, isn't getting 50% or more of my tax dollar enough?
Not sure who is a larger parasite on our economy, welfare recipients or the schools.

Hey Hot Carl, move out then. Go to Nevada or Alaska! Open up your brain and consider possibilities and suggest options. You must be a parasite.

bill to teach wrote:

teach - you clearly don't understand the fully formula the state uses. If you look at per pupil spending St paul and minneapolis are at the top. The state does redistribute the funds. In fact it is mandated by law. Case law requires that educational opportunities are equal. That is why rural schools sued and won a few years back. Before you spout your ignorance, so do some research.

Right they redistribute funds but not evenly. I know that St. Paul and Minneapolis are at the top. This is the sytem that could be changed there are still major discrepencies in funding between schools.

fact checker wrote:

There is no MN cap on teachers pay. Each district works out a contract with the bargaining unit. There are several that pay higher. Don't forget benefits that rock and now other reward programs. The real pay problems stem from teacher unions and how that system is set up.

Right on about the numbers changing because each district sets up their own scale. What the problem with teacher unions and how they're set up? Wouldn't know, never been in one or taught.

Mankato Mike wrote:

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I am not advocating taking these children out of the school system. I believe that children that have fixable issues like dyslexia and children with physical handicaps should be taught as “average” students. Let’s face the facts though. In most “western” nations and in most of the other nations that have a free public education system, children are sent to schools that benefit their abilities. In France for instance, a gifted student would be sent to a school that would require more from their abilities and a child with autism would be sent to a facility that dealt with their abilities.
I am sorry to point out the fact that not everyone is mentally created equal. In your opinion, I read “the hell with the smart children”; we should spend every resource available to make sure everyone ends up coming out the same. If Billy can only read at a kindergarten level in 12th grade that is what the schools should teach so everyone is the same. Did you know that only the United States requires mentally challenged children be integrated into the same schools as the average and gifted? It might make the parents of these individuals feel all warm and fuzzy inside but it has been a major contributor to our academic downfall.

You delve somewhat here into to tracking and I'm not sure that is of benefit to the general population. In many ways schools have a tracking system for the gifted in place already. Honors courses, Advanced Placement, Post-Secondary. I am not very concerned that students deemed gifted aren't able to somehow find classes that will challenge them.

Your talk of spreading out the money is exactly what I'm talking about. It's the same argument my senator was making. Get more money from someplace else because our district is low income. The low income districts need more money, it's all about more money more money.
My low income district has a lot of first class facilities as well as electronic signs all over, aluminum bleachers, new ice arena, new buildings etc etc.. Meanwhile residents are moving out with houses standing empty. Go figure.
Do you really think the state funding is not spread out evenly with the DFL controlled state government?
Shame on them if it isn't!!

Teach wrote:

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Bob,
Listen. I am not saying that the schools should get more money. I am saying that the funding should be spread out evenly amoungst school districts. Currently it is not. Do you understand that? Is this some kind of joke?
Maybe you should jump in a lake it may clean out your vision and clear your head.

Here’s a new funding formula idea. Do away with school districts. Do away with special education. Do away with gifted education. Do away with bus transportation. Do away with property taxes financing education. Have the state send each parent a check for $8000 per child and have each parent CHOOSE the school that makes sense to them. If a school for the gifted and talented costs $10,000 than the parent picks up the other $2,000. If a school for a child with autism costs $30,000 then the parents pick up the remaining $22,000. Every child is treated exactly the same by the state. No favoritism. This should lead to more opportunities for everyone and maybe even more efficiency. A parent would be able to choose to pay more to send their child to schools with lower teacher/child ratios, a school of language immersion, etc. This would also more than likely make teaching jobs more competitive. We could allow our new system to use non-union teachers if desired and allow schools to hire/fire and discipline their employees like the private sector.
Minnesota also0 needs to opt out of the No child Left behind B.S., that just leaves ALL the children behind the likes of China, Japan, India, and European students.

Bob wrote:

Your talk of spreading out the money is exactly what I'm talking about. It's the same argument my senator was making. Get more money from someplace else because our district is low income. The low income districts need more money, it's all about more money more money.
My low income district has a lot of first class facilities as well as electronic signs all over, aluminum bleachers, new ice arena, new buildings etc etc.. Meanwhile residents are moving out with houses standing empty. Go figure.
Do you really think the state funding is not spread out evenly with the DFL controlled state government?
Shame on them if it isn't!!
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It's too bad that you have narrowed your opinion down to one school disctrict that you are familiar with . There is a huge number of districts in the state. Some really do need more money to update facilities and provide a better eduacation.

I'm glad you were able to find one more opportunity to blame the DFL legislature but the fact is, this system has been place too long to blame either the DFL or GOP

Bob,

I was just curious what school district you are refering to?

I don't have kids in school yet but I know that in my district a referendum was passed this year that greatly increased my property tax. Bummer. I'm in the Plymouth/New Hope area.

Mankato Mike is right on a lot of his premises. Last time I checked, the United States was not a communist country. Communism was set up so everyone was treated and paid equally no matter what the did. The United States was founded on the principle of individualism. A person can go as far as their individual abilities will take them. For our education system to operate as a communist regime is wrong. Some children should be given easier classes and some harder classes. As much as our school administrators and the MEA would like to believe that every child will go to college, it is not true. Only 30% of our high-school seniors this year will graduate from a 4-year institution. It does not make sense to keep spending money un-equally on each child and hoping that they all come out equal. It will never happen! School choice is the way to go. Money should be given to each student’s parent and the parent should decide which school to spend it at. In ninth or tenth grade these children should evaluate where they are and where they want to go and be sent to schools that meet their needs. I.E. College bound students to one high-school and vocational bound students to another.

I think that sort of system is used in other countries. It would be interesting to see data showing whether or not this has been successful or not.

I'm sorry I mean to say more successful or not. I'm sure it's had success

I just looked at the stage budget. K-12 is getting over $15B. What amount will be enough for these fools?

And you didn't read the article, fool, it wasn't about getting more money spent in it's about how it's distributed.