The blessings of liberalism

Rediculous. Blatent.

Don Shelby too wrote:

<quoted text>
Because they may be able to parrot the BS from Fox Noise, but they can't refute FACTS. God, I'd be amazed if any of these conservative posters could offer a gramatically correct sentence even!

What "facts" are you referring to? Insulting someone simply based on their political beliefs is petty and small-minded and makes it hard for those who truly wish to have fair and honest debates to take anything you say seriously.

To All:

I hope was I just posted to both 'Don Shelby' and 'Don Joe' resonates in the minds of all on this board (minus the individual criticisms against these two). Once we are able to get past the pettiness and quibbling, we will should be able to find common ground and actually discuss things that benefit as all as Americans.

"....benefit as all as Americans." corrected to "...benefit US all as Americans."

Consistent wrote:

<quoted text>
Since you asked......
Only because you asked will I drag myself to the board to reconize you.
I do not believe that the most rabid, virulent, screaming, confused, ignorant Leftist on this board wants to destroy anything. Neither do I believe it about any "Kill Um All to Make Us Safe" Rightwinger.
I sure dont think that the destrucitve policies promoted by the Leftists are intended to be destructive....they are just to short sighted to see that most of their ideas have destructive unintended consequences.(Often a problem when emotion rules and not intellect...as is the way of the Leftists)
That said, your conflagatory statements are seen for the hyperbole that they are. You bring nothing worthwhile to the conversation and your need for emotional stimulation to satisfy the "Bully" in you is not a need most feel.
So The lesser me responded to you. I expect, as do most others, that you will pull out a line or two from my comment, twist into your scewed perspective, assign to me your twisted view of the one or two lines you pulled out, and attempt to and create a conversation that allows you to bully me.
Since you asked.....
By the way..... Why would ANY President "Want" to destroy the country/civilization he sacrificed 8 years of his life for?
Even the most murderous dictators in history havent sought to destroy life on Earth. How have you come to the wharped conclusion that Mr Bush want to....Please do not answer that...it would be to scarey, and I would probably read your beliefs....ruining my day.

Wow. Very well written. I could not have done better myself. I only ask what "destructive policies" of the left are you referring to? I agree many of the agendas being pushed my left extremists are destructive. I just want to know which ones in particular you believe them to be.

Steve wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow. Very well written. I could not have done better myself. I only ask what "destructive policies" of the left are you referring to? I agree many of the agendas being pushed my left extremists are destructive. I just want to know which ones in particular you believe them to be.

Wow, you are an arrogant person aren't you Steve? "I could not have done better myself", really? I think you could have done better SteveO. I think you could have done it better than anyone else Stevie. Don't sell yourself short. You are obviously the best of us all. You are the supreme "comment board" being.
All hail Steve......King of the Comment Board!!!
Emperor of Opinions!!! All knowing Regal Archduke of Rhetoric!!!. Keep up the good work there Imperial Wizard of the Wise. We all await your next post with gasping anticipation.

Steve wrote:

To All:
I hope was I just posted to both 'Don Shelby' and 'Don Joe' resonates in the minds of all on this board (minus the individual criticisms against these two). Once we are able to get past the pettiness and quibbling, we will should be able to find common ground and actually discuss things that benefit as all as Americans.

I nominate Steve to be President of the United Comment Boards of America.
Do I hear a second?

Don Joe why it is that you demand that I find you information. Yet I have asked you for evidence or information regarding why bush should be impeached and you provided nothing. You claim he lied 935 times or some crap like that. Where do you get this crap? You are one of those guys that leaves in his moms basement fearing the government and watches old x-files reruns.

By the way I will not provide you any evidence or quotes until you show my the evidence you have on bush or take back your statement.

Steve wrote:

<quoted text>
Because it is a rediculous assertion and merits no serious debate. If you wish to debate you must first be honest, be fair-minded, eliminate the insults and naming-calling, back your claims with hard evidence, and grow up.

Name calling in this forum?? You may claim it. Can you point it out? Honesty? I stated the republican party is attacking America. This is how it looks to me. I have seen it in the media being reported that way, even on decidedly right wing forums.

Why do you think it is ridiculous? I can point to many areas where it looks that way. Do you simply discount all those sources? Since many have that opinion, I was giving you an opportunity to explain the goodness of the GOP and you response that it is ridiculous. Allowing you the opportunity to elaborate on the goodness of the GOP seems fair minded to me. What would you suggest as being fairer than that?

Facts to support the claim that the gop is the enemy.

No Child left behind is an unfunded mandate that costs our schools tons of money with no chance of success.

The mission statement of the 911 commission stated they were not to find the cause of the attacks, not to find blame for the attacks, rather to find ways to prevent the attacks in the future.

Oil policy of the Bush administration has brought us to $3.60 average for a gallon of gas.

The Chinese are sending us poisonous toys for our children and the bush administration is allowing virtually no inspection of products coming into the nation.

Millions of illegal immigrants have flooded the nation reducing salaries for millions and the bush administration has done nothing to stop it, except suggest building a fence, implying the Mexicans are not smart enough to build ladders or tunnels, or drive trucks.

There are many many additional items that can be listed, but I think you see the point.

Now about that "grow up" statement? Who is throwing the mud?

bill m wrote:

Don Joe why it is that you demand that I find you information. Yet I have asked you for evidence or information regarding why bush should be impeached and you provided nothing. You claim he lied 935 times or some crap like that. Where do you get this crap? You are one of those guys that leaves in his moms basement fearing the government and watches old x-files reruns.
By the way I will not provide you any evidence or quotes until you show my the evidence you have on bush or take back your statement.

How about :

1. Providing misinformation to the United Nations Security Council, Congress, and the American people overstating the offensive capabilities of Iraq, including weapons of mass destruction, as justification for military action against Iraq.
2. Repeatedly manipulating the sentiments of the American people by erroneously linking Iraq with the terrorist attacks of September 11th by Al-Qaeda.
3. Repeatedly claiming that satellite photos of sites in Iraq depicted factories for weapons of mass destruction in contradiction with the results of ground inspections by United Nations teams.
4. Stating that "Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa" in his State of the Union Address after being told by the CIA that this was untrue and that the supporting documents were forged.
5. Influencing, manipulating and distorting intelligence related to Iraq with the intention of using that intelligence to support his goal of invading Iraq.
6. Retaliating against whistle-blowers who try to point out errors in statements made by President Bush.

Not to mention his orders to the troops to torture innocent people. Not to mention the treason against Valerie Phlame and the rest of our intelligence community. Not to mention unwarranted spying on American Citizens.

Do you have anything beside mudslinging?

Back When wrote:

<quoted text>No one refutes what you say because we realize that you have figured it out Don. The whole world is conspiring against you Donny boy. We are all in on it, but we are hoping that if we ignore the fact that you have figured it out you will think that you didn't figure it out and we can all go back to conspiring against you. Your life is actually just like "The Truman Show" and you are an international television phenomenon. I just thought that someone should tell you Don. I could not go on living the lie any longer. Get on your sailboat and just go Don. Just sail out to sea and you will eventually come to the inside wall of your prison. Just punch through it and escape Don. Here's to hoping that my efforts to warn you here are not in vain, as I will surely be killed for telling you all of this.

Ok, Ok, This doesn't respond to any of the issues, but it was funny.

Back When wrote:

<quoted text>Wow, you are an arrogant person aren't you Steve? "I could not have done better myself", really? I think you could have done better SteveO. I think you could have done it better than anyone else Stevie. Don't sell yourself short. You are obviously the best of us all. You are the supreme "comment board" being.
All hail Steve......King of the Comment Board!!!
Emperor of Opinions!!! All knowing Regal Archduke of Rhetoric!!!. Keep up the good work there Imperial Wizard of the Wise. We all await your next post with gasping anticipation.

Now that was funny!

Back When wrote:

<quoted text> I nominate Steve to be President of the United Comment Boards of America.
Do I hear a second?

Steve...thanks for the compliment.

Some men have anatomical issues which prevent them from being able to reconize another for fear that their physical deficiency will be disclosed.

It is nice that a "Man" can stand up without fear of emasculation and compliment another "Man".

I understand males like "Back When". Our culture has created several generations of them since 1970 or so. He learned young that maleness was a defect, and will probably suffer his damaged self esteem for life.

So please discount the attacks from the emotional midgets, and feel free to recognize those points you agree with.

Thanks Again Steve....

Doe Joe - I found something we agree on- throwing out NCLB. In the beggining it was a good idea but the adaption has not occurred as promised and the funds also have not followed. Time to buck up or dump it.

However as usual you are completely wrong on other issues. The oil prices are not related to Bush's policys' they are a reflection of the green policy that took power in 2006. Check the gas prices - I don't know the website off the top of my head but they are out there. Depending on the source and how they sort their data it shows some differences, but gas prices have really skyrocketed only since then. there was a price hike in the summer of 2005 due to political unrest in some south american countries and unrest in iraq at that time. There was also small hikes around katrina and 911. Otherwise there was only moderate increases. It has rised at least a dollar since 2006

The illegal issue is not a Bush issue. While I agree Bush has not addressed the issue neither did Clinton or the Dem controled congress. The people in power regardless of party have avoided dealing with the problem.

1. providing misinformation. That is not a crime. He presented intelligence that he was given. If you want to argue that he should have seen through it- fine make that point, I can will argue against that. Second that info was not incorrect. Saddam had WMD. He used them, inspectors found them, our troops found them, our troops found info and evidence of recently removed ones. Was there a smoking gun, no, but there was bullet holes and bodies. You can't make that leap, I can.
2. again not a crime. Also again there were links from Saddam to 911 groups. Again no smoking gun, but links.
3. again not a crime. All this shows is how poor our intelligence community is, if that was correct. The timing was an issue on many of these things. By the time the inspectors looked the factories could have been shut down. I really don't know. He is only as good as the info provided to him.
4. THe uranim story was both discredited and supported I really don't know much about the intelligence on that one. I do know that the source was a source that the government used several times. Again not a crime, maybe bad judgement stating it in the SOTU address, but nothing illegal and again relying on intelligence.
5. Your opinion - not facts
6. Again baseless allegations
7. Troops being ordered to torture innocent people - again baseless allegations. Torture in what way?
8. treason against Vallere plame again baseless allegations. The story was told. They know who leaked that info - richard armatige and she was not a covert agent as defined by statute. I used to have the statute on my computer but don't anymore. There was no crime in disclosing the info and it was not even tied to Bush.
9. There has been no violation of law in regards to the wiretaps. If you don't agree wit the law then argue that.

Clearly you have some condition cause by hatred of Bush that causes non-logical arguments. I am not a Bush fan, but I will use facts not allegations to discuss my issues with him.

Bill m wrote:

Doe Joe - I found something we agree on- throwing out NCLB. In the beggining it was a good idea but the adaption has not occurred as promised and the funds also have not followed. Time to buck up or dump it.
However as usual you are completely wrong on other issues. The oil prices are not related to Bush's policys' they are a reflection of the green policy that took power in 2006. Check the gas prices - I don't know the website off the top of my head but they are out there. Depending on the source and how they sort their data it shows some differences, but gas prices have really skyrocketed only since then. there was a price hike in the summer of 2005 due to political unrest in some south american countries and unrest in iraq at that time. There was also small hikes around katrina and 911. Otherwise there was only moderate increases. It has rised at least a dollar since 2006
The illegal issue is not a Bush issue. While I agree Bush has not addressed the issue neither did Clinton or the Dem controled congress. The people in power regardless of party have avoided dealing with the problem.

...oil prices are... a reflection of the green policy that took power in 2006...

I love it! Oil prices go UP when demand is increased, and oil prices go UP when demand is decreased!

Oh Adam Smith, wherefore art thou!!!

Bill m wrote:

Doe Joe - I found something we agree on- throwing out NCLB. In the beggining it was a good idea but the adaption has not occurred as promised and the funds also have not followed. Time to buck up or dump it.
However as usual you are completely wrong on other issues. The oil prices are not related to Bush's policys' they are a reflection of the green policy that took power in 2006. Check the gas prices - I don't know the website off the top of my head but they are out there. Depending on the source and how they sort their data it shows some differences, but gas prices have really skyrocketed only since then. there was a price hike in the summer of 2005 due to political unrest in some south american countries and unrest in iraq at that time. There was also small hikes around katrina and 911. Otherwise there was only moderate increases. It has rised at least a dollar since 2006
The illegal issue is not a Bush issue. While I agree Bush has not addressed the issue neither did Clinton or the Dem controled congress. The people in power regardless of party have avoided dealing with the problem.

Yes, we can agree on throwing out NCLB. We will disagree that it was ever a good idea.

I believe that gas prices are directly related to bush's policies. In particular they are related to the policy of not enforcing collusion on prices. Secondly they are related to lax regulation of the oil companies that let them control supply by various means. This lax regulation has been going on since Reagan and Clinton did not intervene to stop it. I suspect the greens are just a scapegoat.

We can agree that illegal immigration is not just a bush issue either. Republicans since Reagan have allowed many millions into the country, mostly for the purpose of reducing wages. Clinton did little to stop this either.

We may also agree that we don't like Bill Clinton.

I suspect we may also agree that neither party is working for the people. Special interests have taken over. I don't trust any part of government now.

Bill m wrote:

1. providing misinformation. That is not a crime....
2. again not a crime. Also again there were links from Saddam to 911 groups. Again no smoking gun, but links.
3. again not a crime. All this shows is how poor our intelligence community is, if that was correct....
4. THe uranim story was both discredited and supported I really don't know much about the intelligence on that one. I do know that the source was a source that the government used several times. Again not a crime, maybe bad judgement stating it in the SOTU address, but nothing illegal and again relying on intelligence.
5. Your opinion - not facts
6. Again baseless allegations
7. Troops being ordered to torture innocent people - again baseless allegations. Torture in what way?
8. treason against Vallere plame again baseless allegations. The story was told. They know who leaked that info - richard armatige and she was not a covert agent as defined by statute. I used to have the statute on my computer but don't anymore. There was no crime in disclosing the info and it was not even tied to Bush.
9. There has been no violation of law in regards to the wiretaps. If you don't agree wit the law then argue that.
Clearly you have some condition cause by hatred of Bush that causes non-logical arguments. I am not a Bush fan, but I will use facts not allegations to discuss my issues with him.

1. Lying to congress was illegal when Clinton did it, why is it legal for bush. Specially when those lies cause wars?
2. It is a crime to lie to congress. It is illegal to yell fire in a crowded room, much more so to do what bush did.
3. The intelligence was very good. Bush altered the intelligence and gave altered information to congress, which is a crime. Shouldn't you be unhappy about being lied to?
4. Again, bush had good intelligence but it was altered to lie us into war. This is illegal and more evidence of bush's push to war without real reason.
5,6. Let's impeach bush and bring the facts to light. If he is innocent, let us find out. There is too much evidence to just ignore.
7. Memos released about 2 weeks ago show many in the white house discussing torturing captured people to find out if they know anything. Cheney lead the discussion and the issue of it being illegal came up. They discussed ways to work around the law and still torture people. Since we now have proof that this torture was ordered from the top levels of the bush administration, shouldn't those soldiers who were convicted be set free and let bush take their place?
8. Treason is treason. Bush/Cheney ordered it and should be in jail. They let lower level people take the blame and then just pardoned them. That is not justice, that is not even finding out what happened. This is a crime. I had a secret clearance at one time and you can't say anything without getting in trouble. Even something as silly as F=42 can get you in batches of trouble. Why is bush immune from the law?
9. Warrant less wiretapping of Americans was illegal when bush did it. I don't know why you say it wasn't. He didn't obey the FISA laws, which are so loose as to be practically meaningless, but bush wouldn't even obey those laws.
The bottom line is that there is so much evidence for illegal activity that bush should at least be put on the stand, under oath, to explain this.
I would bet if bush were a democrat,having engaged in this behavior, you would be screaming for impeachment.

Its hard to believe you actually buy into the gop propaganda. Its not bush's fault he ruined the economy. Its not bush's fault he ordered innocent men women and children to be tortured to death. Its not bush's fault he is shipping all our jobs to China. Its not bush's fault for his actions. How can you believe that anybody else should take responsibility for Bush's actions? Clearly the Iraq war is bush's puppy. He bought it. He lied to the American people and congress to get us to pay for it. It costs hundreds of billions of dollars and we get nothing for it. You can't withdraw hundreds of billions of dollars from an economy and expect it to remain viable.

Don Joe:
I have followed this thread for days. I have read your posts and finally decided I had to respond to this one.
1.How did President Bush ruin the economy?
2.Show me verifiable, factual instances of President Bush ordering innocent men, women and children being tortured to death.
3.How did President Bush ship our jobs to China?
4. What actions of the President are you referring to?
5. Cite verifiable, factual instances where the President lied to the country to get us to go to war with Iraq?

If you are honest you will have to admit that prior to President Bush taking office every intelligence report gathered by the previous administration said that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. These reports were updated right up to the time when President Bush took office. So your contention that he lied is baseless and untrue.

Irrevent Thinker wrote:

...
Don Joe:
I have followed this thread for days. I have read your posts and finally decided I had to respond to this one.
1.How did President Bush ruin the economy?
2.Show me verifiable, factual instances of President Bush ordering innocent men, women and children being tortured to death.
3.How did President Bush ship our jobs to China?
4. What actions of the President are you referring to?
5. Cite verifiable, factual instances where the President lied to the country to get us to go to war with Iraq?
If you are honest you will have to admit that prior to President Bush taking office every intelligence report gathered by the previous administration said that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. These reports were updated right up to the time when President Bush took office. So your contention that he lied is baseless and untrue.

1. bush used several methods to ruin our economy. First is the failure to regulate commerce. Without regulations being enforced, we have no rules to operate by. Millions of illegals can enter the country ruining the supply/demand equation for labor. This has dropped wages significantly. Additionally no regulations means that monopolies can take over one industry at a time. This is not a competitive situation, this is a method to extricate your money, without you having a choice.
Second, the war takes billions out of our economy, with no significant return on that money. Third the oil policies have driven up gas prices sucking more strength out of our economy. Fourth, no action to help the health care situation, requiring massive outlays for minimal health care.
These are the tip of the iceberg of damage to our economy.
2. The memos released from the white house recently showed bush's staff discussing torture and how it can be accomplished. They talked about how to contort the law so that they can get away with torturing people. They put out a reward in Iraq to give $25,000 to anybody who will capture an enemy. Many did capture others just for the reward, some as young as 14 years old. Those children and others were sent to Guantanamo for interrogation and they used enhanced techniques. This was torture and some died. This is not to mention the 35 people who died of torture in Abu Graib using these same enhanced techniques. These are verifiable and you should verify them yourself.
3. Ok, bush is not directly shipping our jobs to China, instead he is not acting to prevent our jobs from being shipped to China. China has severely undervalued its currency. They are about 30x lower than they should be. I talked with the owner of a metal fabrication company. He compared metal cooking pans from China, cheaper than he can buy the raw materials to make the same. That is not a level playing field. Free trade under these conditions is not fair and our government is duty bound to act in our interest. Why do you think they haven't?
4. All of them. He has not spoken truthfully to the American public. I want some honesty from him. Let him start small and then grow to tell some bigger truths.
5. There are publicly available 935 lies told by bush to congress and the American people in the run up to the war. As far as I am concerned there was plenty of information that clearly showed Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction. There were inspectors going over the entire Iraqi nation and could find none. They did find where the WMD that had been given to them by the gop in previous terms had been destroyed. The spokeperson for the investigators stated that they thought there were no WMD. The evidence shown by the bush administration was not convincing. They certainly did not convince me that some truck was being used improperly.