Journalist Amy Goodman confronts police chief over her arrest

stpaulite wrote:

<quoted text>
Could you expand on this, this is an interesting thought process. How do you define corporatism? I have never heard of fascism and nazism(is that a word?) refered to as corporatism.

Then you don't know much about political philosophy. Here is a reasonable summary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism
Note that the word 'Nazism' is used in this entry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi

CyBear wrote:

<quoted text>
You seem to think that press credentials mean that the members of the press have no obligation to follow the law. They have no more rights than anyone else.
Amy Goodman was properly cited for 'obstructing the legal process'. By her own admission, she was interfering with a police arrest. Her producers had been placed under arrest for 'felony riot'. Even as a member of the press, she has no right to interfere with that.

They were trying to, they were trying to get out of the area and police wouldn't let them. Have you read any report about the two producers?

Do you have a reference for admitting she was interferring with an arrest(hardly possible, it's on tape tso I don't know how you got that)?

I am not arguing that they have rights above the law, what I am arguing is that police should recognize the press has a right to report, as long as they are not on the way.

Also, they are not the only ones.

An AP photogrpaher was arrested, two people shooting a documentary, I think it's up to 8 journalists.

At the very least, it should be investigated to the fullest(and those who agree or disagree I hope at least support getting the truth out).

I wouldn't be suprised if it's on the city's security cameras, but I do know their is audio of it(the first producer had her camera and it recorded the whole thing).

I do think though, as regrettable as the arrests are, it is a conversation that needs to happen in this country.

I think we should also consider, that if we side with the police and no journalists should be around to report, do we stop sending journalists to report during wars and conflicts? I am sure a lot of countries were journalists work would prefer them not to report(and I am sure they could claim the same reasoning people are giving to not care about this and stand up for these journalists).

I think we also need to consider, and look outside from just our country, to others where journalists have no freedom, say Russia, is that the kind of country we want?

I prefer America personally, and I hope people can begin to understand why it works so well, it's because of these protections of speech and press, not because we tell journalists when and where it is appropriate to report. I think totalitarian countries have got that covered and it's not a place I am willing to go.

Get a Clue wrote:

stpualite is confused. why do the police have to come up with proof that the anarchists were posing as journalists? She is a person who was told to back off. She follows their order and backs off. Who cares if she is an anarchist, a reporter, or the Pope? An officer says move, you move.

You can disagree with my analysis without being rude.

Have you seen the report about the two producers? They were trying to move out of the way.

CyBear wrote:

<quoted text>
Then you don't know much about political philosophy. Here is a reasonable summary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism
Note that the word 'Nazism' is used in this entry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi

Thanks for the links, but did you need to stick in the jab? If you are trying to argue a point(or philoshy) it's much easier to get people to listen if you aren't telling them they don't know much.
I know much more about U.S. political though/history/U.S. Constitution, but I have an endless love for learning, if people are playing nice.:)

CyBear wrote:

<quoted text>
Fascism and Nazism are both forms of socialism called 'corporatism'. Before you go off your nut, labor unions are corporations in the context of that political philosophy.
<< Right wing extremists don't like being called Nazis >>
Not in America, because we believe in individual rights. Fascists believe that your rights come from whatever group you belong to.
<< ... but that's where Nazis belong on the political scale, with you on the extreme right. >>
Nazis have never believed in the sovereignty of the individual.
<< Answer one question- Do you embrace or hate people of color? >>
Embrace, of course. All American conservatives do.

Cybear- Your new technique of picking apart people's posts item by item is unique. Unfortunately, you rattle off a personal opinion in answering what other people are saying. Or, where is your information coming from-

"Fascism and Nazism are both forms of socialism called 'corporatism'."
If you are quoting from a book or other reference- name it.

"Fascists believe that your rights come from whatever group you belong to." Where did you read this- name your source.

Conservative white politicians in the South and Northern cities, including Mpls and St Paul, were told by the Supreme Court to balance the number of white kids with the number of minority kids in their schools. How was that embracing minorities?

Conservative right wing groups don't like John McCain's ideas about illegal immigration and they don't like Mexicans, read this:

"Anti-Illegal Immigration Forces Rally Against McCain"
By Julia Preston
"Conservative groups that battle illegal immigration, alarmed by the advance of John McCain, are rallying their forces today against him." NYTimes 9/3/08

Not much of an embrace there Cybear. Skinheads, Neo Nazis, the KKK want to keep the races separate.
How about you. Would you let your daughter marry a man of a different race?

andy wrote:

Harrington and Fletcher, proof that many people are promoted beyond their capability to perform. Fletcher and Harrington the two sugar daddies of Rehak and Naylon the two recently convicted felons that were employees of these two genius minds that could not sniff out corruption in their own department. Run these bum's off, replace them with profetional law enforcemement leaders.

You forgot to add Finney to your checklist! There is some very interesting information about him and his friends on here. I am trying to figure out how these bozos got away with all of this. I want to know how come a police chief had so many close friends that were engaged in interstate drug activity. How many officers knew what was happening in that impound lot? Seems there are witnesses to these very serious allegations.

http://www.justiceforbarbara.com/Ex_Chief_Bil...

Monk wrote:

<quoted text>
Cybear- Your new technique of picking apart people's posts item by item is unique. Unfortunately, you rattle off a personal opinion in answering what other people are saying. Or, where is your information coming from-
"Fascism and Nazism are both forms of socialism called 'corporatism'."
If you are quoting from a book or other reference- name it.
"Fascists believe that your rights come from whatever group you belong to." Where did you read this- name your source.
Conservative white politicians in the South and Northern cities, including Mpls and St Paul, were told by the Supreme Court to balance the number of white kids with the number of minority kids in their schools. How was that embracing minorities?
Conservative right wing groups don't like John McCain's ideas about illegal immigration and they don't like Mexicans, read this:
"Anti-Illegal Immigration Forces Rally Against McCain"
By Julia Preston
"Conservative groups that battle illegal immigration, alarmed by the advance of John McCain, are rallying their forces today against him." NYTimes 9/3/08
Not much of an embrace there Cybear. Skinheads, Neo Nazis, the KKK want to keep the races separate.
How about you. Would you let your daughter marry a man of a different race?

I used to play this "game" with Madman''

My 1st inclination when i red your post is to point out your own biases, and selective content....the very thing you go after Pragmatist for.

My inclination now is to toss out a couple of one-liners and be done with it, rather than providing a detailed response that will be "Selectivly Dissected" by the Madman types, and then use the selected snippets from my post and demand "Citations (gag) and where I got my Information!!.....
The Implication being that Madman an his ilk, have Unimpeachable Facts, and my opinion is based on Ignorance, Racism, Bigotry, Mysogony, Homophobia, or any one of the Politically Correct Vicim Groups that I must oppose, since I dont agree with their "Facts".

Not Pragmatist......Cybear

Amy does look alot like her bro.... John Goodman.
Wheew!!??

Consistent wrote:

Not Pragmatist......Cybear

You and the Capn thought I was off the deep end, which only I am allowed to say, but look at this.

New York Times
Wednesday, February 4, 2008

Anti-Illegal Immigration Forces Rally Against McCain
By Julia Preston

Conservative groups that battle illegal immigration, alarmed by the advance of John McCain, are rallying their forces today against him.

Roy Beck, the president of NumbersUSA, one of the biggest of those organizations, sent out an e-mail action alert early this morning that he said went to 1.5 million members. Warning of “political illiteracy” among Republican voters that “threatens disastrous consequences,” Mr. Beck cited a Washington Post/ABC News poll over the weekend showing that 47 percent of Republican voters most trusted McCain on immigration, while 22 percent trusted Mitt Romney. Mr. Beck disputed Mr. McCain’s recent statements that his priority is border security.“About the only time McCain has backed more security on the border is when it is tied to amnesty,” he said, using conservatives’ term for policies giving legal status to illegal immigrants, which Mr. McCain has long defended and Mr. Beck has long opposed.

NUMBERSUSA isn't a Socialist May Day picnic. CyBear can believe what he wants.

Monk wrote:

<quoted text>
You and the Capn thought I was off the deep end, which only I am allowed to say, but look at this.
New York Times
Wednesday, February 4, 2008
Anti-Illegal Immigration Forces Rally Against McCain
By Julia Preston
Conservative groups that battle illegal immigration, alarmed by the advance of John McCain, are rallying their forces today against him.
Roy Beck, the president of NumbersUSA, one of the biggest of those organizations, sent out an e-mail action alert early this morning that he said went to 1.5 million members. Warning of “political illiteracy” among Republican voters that “threatens disastrous consequences,” Mr. Beck cited a Washington Post/ABC News poll over the weekend showing that 47 percent of Republican voters most trusted McCain on immigration, while 22 percent trusted Mitt Romney. Mr. Beck disputed Mr. McCain’s recent statements that his priority is border security.“About the only time McCain has backed more security on the border is when it is tied to amnesty,” he said, using conservatives’ term for policies giving legal status to illegal immigrants, which Mr. McCain has long defended and Mr. Beck has long opposed.
NUMBERSUSA isn't a Socialist May Day picnic. CyBear can believe what he wants.

My point was that I "used" to do this.

As to your issue....I have no issue with your point.....Mcain aint my guy......but Mrs Palin definitly is.

Consistent wrote:

<quoted text>
I used to play this "game" with Madman''
My 1st inclination when i red your post is to point out your own biases, and selective content....the very thing you go after Pragmatist for.
My inclination now is to toss out a couple of one-liners and be done with it, rather than providing a detailed response that will be "Selectivly Dissected" by the Madman types, and then use the selected snippets from my post and demand "Citations (gag) and where I got my Information!!.....
The Implication being that Madman an his ilk, have Unimpeachable Facts, and my opinion is based on Ignorance, Racism, Bigotry, Mysogony, Homophobia, or any one of the Politically Correct Vicim Groups that I must oppose, since I dont agree with their "Facts".

WOW -- I have gone from a "Progressive Victim" to a rhetorical oppositional archetype! Perhaps I should be flattered.

Just for the record, though -- I have repeatedly asked you to simply ANSWER THE QUESTION that was posted by whomever. In a happier time you would actually reply; now, you usually engage in sweeping generalizations while dismissing the question (e.g., "You Leftists ..."), accuse me of "dishonesty," claim you can "see through my mask," and other such stuff while AVOIDING THE QUESTION!

It would be wiser to remain off-line and be thought a Fool, than to post drivel and remove all doubt. That is the effect of your one-liners!

Also, for the record, I have NEVER, EVER accused you of, "Ignorance, Racism, Bigotry, Misogyny, or Homophobia." Not EVER! Not only do I know those accusations are NOT true, but you know damn well I always rail AGAINST such name-calling. Some on the Left may do so, but you have seen that my pleas for civility often fall on obscene ears.

I now see that you actually answered monk's question in #243. Was that so hard?

stpaulite wrote:

<quoted text>
They were trying to, they were trying to get out of the area and police wouldn't let them. Have you read any report about the two producers?
Do you have a reference for admitting she was interferring with an arrest(hardly possible, it's on tape tso I don't know how you got that)?
I am not arguing that they have rights above the law, what I am arguing is that police should recognize the press has a right to report, as long as they are not on the way.
Also, they are not the only ones.
An AP photogrpaher was arrested, two people shooting a documentary, I think it's up to 8 journalists.
At the very least, it should be investigated to the fullest(and those who agree or disagree I hope at least support getting the truth out).
I wouldn't be suprised if it's on the city's security cameras, but I do know their is audio of it(the first producer had her camera and it recorded the whole thing).
I do think though, as regrettable as the arrests are, it is a conversation that needs to happen in this country.
I think we should also consider, that if we side with the police and no journalists should be around to report, do we stop sending journalists to report during wars and conflicts? I am sure a lot of countries were journalists work would prefer them not to report(and I am sure they could claim the same reasoning people are giving to not care about this and stand up for these journalists).
I think we also need to consider, and look outside from just our country, to others where journalists have no freedom, say Russia, is that the kind of country we want?
I prefer America personally, and I hope people can begin to understand why it works so well, it's because of these protections of speech and press, not because we tell journalists when and where it is appropriate to report. I think totalitarian countries have got that covered and it's not a place I am willing to go.

Stpaulite: I can't say that I disagree with you but I would like to throw in a couple points. First, for all of the hand wringing about the arrests of these credentialed journalists being arrested, no one has complained about heavy handed tactics, unprofessional behavior. Second, the people who insist on reporting the news from within the action. That comes with risk. Ask a war correspondent how many of their brethren died in the performance of their duties.
These RNC joournalists will end up with watery eyes, maybe a ticket but will walk away unscathed.
Your post eludes to the fact that the press, the 4th estate is some sort of altruistic group of people dedicated to the truth. When we all know that is not true, some lean (or fall) left others lean (or fall) right. But all seemed to be dedicated to hype not the truth.
For proof, I offer the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal. I personally never thought that was an issue and never will and certainly not impeachable offenses including the lying about sex crap. Where I had a problem, was that while the hype and titilation was going on. Pres. Clinton ceded control of our military to the UN, fired missles upon Iraq and invaded Somolia. Based upon today's rhetoric all could have been impeachable offenses.
Where was the press? They were busy selling ads and papers about cigars, trysts and sex.
Our form of Gov't is based on checks and balances. Where are the checks/balances for the press?
IMO, The Bill of Rights is the greatest document of our time, spelling out our rights and protections. I believe that the Framers should have created The Bill of Responsibilities as well.

I would have arrested her just like they did. She has no right ot try to cross the police line, anymore than I would.

Democracy is dead wrote:

If hundreds of people can be corralled and beaten by the police, and then charged with felonies, for the crime of observing their first amendment rights, then democracy is dead in America...

But if petty criminals get arrested and spend a short amount of time in jail, its called the real world. Your purple prose and over-wrought fantasies notwithstanding.

First of all GB Fan, I want to thank you for the conversation, too many times it ends up being a shouting match with a bunch of name-callers, and it's wonderful to actually engage in a discussion.
[quote]
First, for all of the hand wringing about the arrests of these credentialed journalists being arrested, no one has complained about heavy handed tactics, unprofessional behavior.[/quote]
That is not true at all, it's come up quite a bit and has been asked of Fletcher and Harrington. There have been pieces on here as well. Also, a lot of firsthand accounts of folks downtown(I work downtown). I think that for the most part the police were very professional, but it doesn't matter if most all, they all need to be.
You wouldn't want a hack doctor working on you just because he happened to go to medical school. You expect a professional and if you receive one who is not, you have a right to get a new one etc.
Have you read the reports on the first two producers of democracy now's arrest? There is also audio tape of it as well.
[quote]
Second, the people who insist on reporting the news from within the action. That comes with risk. Ask a war correspondent how many of their brethren died in the performance of their duties.[/quote]
Oh I totally agree with that, and I don't think you would get a different arguement from these journalists. But it seems to me that journalists working in war torn countries seem to have more respect than what happened this week(and the subsequent brushing off of this situation by all the folks in charge).
[quote]
These RNC joournalists will end up with watery eyes, maybe a ticket but will walk away unscathed.
Your post eludes to the fact that the press, the 4th estate is some sort of altruistic group of people dedicated to the truth. When we all know that is not true, some lean (or fall) left others lean (or fall) right. But all seemed to be dedicated to hype not the truth.[/quote]
I am not quite sure how you gathered that. Maybe I can make myself more clear, Freedom of the Press is of uptmost importance for a healthy democracy, ask anyone who has ever lived in a place that does not have a free press and they will tell you how it doesn't help to encourage democracy.
I also don't deny that all journalists have a bias, we are human for crying out loud, unless we start employing robot journalists, it's going to be par for the course. That's why we have brains to be able to make all these considerations and critically think about what we are reading or seeing.
However, more important than a bias, which I honestly do not have an issue with, I think the conglomeration of the media and the difference in reporting by corporate media and independent media should cause us all great concern and so many stories get lost because they aren't sensationlist or pretty enough, or whatever for corproate newsrooms and never see the light of day.
[quote]
For proof, I offer the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal. I personally never thought that was an issue and never will and certainly not impeachable offenses including the lying about sex crap. Where I had a problem, was that while the hype and titilation was going on. Pres. Clinton ceded control of our military to the UN, fired missles upon Iraq and invaded Somolia. Based upon today's rhetoric all could have been impeachable offenses.[/quote]
Oh you are not alone, really, it was so tiring and what a distraction. There was so much more that needed to be addressed with Clinton, unfortunately the media was consumed with tabloid material(why do they want to be TMZ, YUCK!).
And this is off topic, but I would love to hear more about this and why you think it was impeachable.
continued in next post....

"Where was the press? They were busy selling ads and papers about cigars, trysts and sex."
Oh I am with you 100%, that's why independent journalists need citizens to come out and stand up for them, they don't have the same kind of money behind them to hire the lawyers for stuff like this.

"Our form of Gov't is based on checks and balances. Where are the checks/balances for the press?"
I hear this too. Acutally there are a lot of groups trying to address this issue(along with things like net neutrality etc.), but mainstream press would never talk about it. If you are interested I could post some websites of organizations addressing this very issue.

"IMO, The Bill of Rights is the greatest document of our time, spelling out our rights and protections. I believe that the Framers should have created The Bill of Responsibilities as well."
I agree, and honestly, I think that if it was taught more, and in-depth, you would understand more what the citizens responsibilities in democracy are. I think we need to have more civics classes, but also critical thinking classes.
Sad when an immigrant who gets their citizenship knows our laws better than the average American.
My brother gave me a fun book once, and it was in jest, but really I think it's a good idea, it's call "The Good Citizen's Handbook"(it's redone from the 50's I believe) "A Guide To Proper Behavior" and while it's funny, I think it is also something we all could use(funny how manners and etiquette classes are all the rage, considering we have totally forgotten how to be polite and considerate to one another).

stpaulite wrote:

"Where was the press? They were busy selling ads and papers about cigars, trysts and sex."
Oh I am with you 100%, that's why independent journalists need citizens to come out and stand up for them, they don't have the same kind of money behind them to hire the lawyers for stuff like this.
"Our form of Gov't is based on checks and balances. Where are the checks/balances for the press?"
I hear this too. Acutally there are a lot of groups trying to address this issue(along with things like net neutrality etc.), but mainstream press would never talk about it. If you are interested I could post some websites of organizations addressing this very issue.
"IMO, The Bill of Rights is the greatest document of our time, spelling out our rights and protections. I believe that the Framers should have created The Bill of Responsibilities as well."
I agree, and honestly, I think that if it was taught more, and in-depth, you would understand more what the citizens responsibilities in democracy are. I think we need to have more civics classes, but also critical thinking classes.
Sad when an immigrant who gets their citizenship knows our laws better than the average American.
My brother gave me a fun book once, and it was in jest, but really I think it's a good idea, it's call "The Good Citizen's Handbook"(it's redone from the 50's I believe) "A Guide To Proper Behavior" and while it's funny, I think it is also something we all could use(funny how manners and etiquette classes are all the rage, considering we have totally forgotten how to be polite and considerate to one another).

The fresh autumn air has raised the level of debate to an all time high. I'm almost speechless (almost)

It's really scary that so many of the posters, without bothering to look at the videos of the arrests (available at http://www.youtube.com/watch... ) would pass judgment. It's all there...caught on tape.

It's criminal. And those who support fascist police practices apparently have no idea how dangerous arresting journalist can be to a democracy.

Try thinking with your head instead of your easily manipulated instincts.

Kay wrote:

It's really scary that so many of the posters, without bothering to look at the videos of the arrests (available at http://www.youtube.com/watch... ) would pass judgment. It's all there...caught on tape.
It's criminal. And those who support fascist police practices apparently have no idea how dangerous arresting journalist can be to a democracy.
Try thinking with your head instead of your easily manipulated instincts.

Not the way she described it- they did not have her face down on the pavement, no knee in her back. She would not comply with the Police and she got arrested. My instincts are not easily manipulated. Journalists do not have immunity from the law.