Vandals, not anarchists

Darwinian wrote:

<quoted text>
So, you are proposing that we eliminate all government regulation of health care, eliminate health insurance, and let people pay for their own care, and those who cannot afford care should just shut up and die?
Do you also propose eliminating municipal fire and police departments? Should the rich hire private security firms, and the rest do without police and fire protection? How about municipal snow removal - should we all have to clear the streets if we feel like it?
And, how do you explain the fact that European pay half what we pay, per capita, for health care, are healthier than we are, have lower infant mortality, and higher life expectancy, and that European countries manage to cover everyone?

Fire and police protection are natural monopolies within cities, much like utilities. Healthcare isn't a natural monopoly any more than, say, grocery stores or computer manufacturing. Europe is different than us in a lot of ways. I'm not sure where you get this idea that they're healthier than us. The biggest difference between European healthcare and American healthcare is simple rationing. The government controls costs by simply restricting access generally. Sure, you can get an MRI, but that'll be in 6 months. We're also pretty dumb how we can't even make simple connections like between people without an ability to pay for healthcare and an open border.

There's an obvious principle at play when someone else pays. What do you suppose would happen to the auto industry if you told people that they no longer need to pay for a car themselves? Inflation.

Darwinian wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually, the VA system provides outstanding care. Have you ever been to the Minneapolis VA hospital? I have.
And, before you bring up the outpatient department at Walter Reed, bear in mind that that particular operation had been privatized.
Now, think about all the shoddy construction in Iraq, where our soldiers are being electrocuted by faulty wiring, thanks to no-bid, cost-plus contracts with private companies.

Actually, I have extensive experience with the V.A. in Minneapolis. The care isn't universally bad, and in fact, for some some specialties it's good. But overall, I found it to be stunningly wasteful and a bit of a dumping ground for below average doctors.

All the government has to do is 1) close the supply of new poor people that obviously can't afford healthcare and just add to the problem; 2) make stripped down policies legal; 3) streamline all these state insurance regulators and allow across state lines competition; 4) require people to pay at least something for every bit of healthcare they consume, even Medicaid, so that people have some care about costs. This'll help slow the rampant inflation of too many dollars chasing after healthcare services.

Socialism never fixes anything. What's envied doesn't get given to everyone, it just gets destroyed. But then not knowing the difference, the people are happy with a job well done.

Darwinian wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually, the VA system provides outstanding care. Have you ever been to the Minneapolis VA hospital? I have.
And, before you bring up the outpatient department at Walter Reed, bear in mind that that particular operation had been privatized.
Now, think about all the shoddy construction in Iraq, where our soldiers are being electrocuted by faulty wiring, thanks to no-bid, cost-plus contracts with private companies.

Sorry for the additional post, but you mention Walter Reed and Iraq outsourcing. You're missing something real big. The unaccountable inefficient government remains the customer. If you're a complete idiot that will pay anything regardless of service or quality and even the next restaurant you visit knows this about you, what do you suppose you dining experience will be like? Fabulous? Not likely.

It has begun.

Arrival Date 9/4/2008 2:22:00 AM
Initial Charge POSS EXPLOSIVES [F-WEAPONS][52]
Statute Referenced Explosive and Incendiary Devices
Charge Level Felony
Amended Charge
Court Charge
First Name GREGORY
Middle Name JOHN
Last Name KASTEN
Birthdate 3/8/1988
Place of Birth MANKATO
Address No. 40966
Address Suffix
Address Street CO RD 4
Address Line 2
City NICOLLET
State MN
ZIP 56074
City of Violation ST. PAUL
Date arrested 9/3/2008
Arresting Agency ST PAUL PD
Arrested Address No.
Arrest Address Suffix
Arrest Address Street JACKSON AND WINTER
Arrest Address Line 2
Arrest City ST. PAUL
Arrest County RAM
Arrest State MN

Darwinian wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually, the VA system provides outstanding care. Have you ever been to the Minneapolis VA hospital? I have.
And, before you bring up the outpatient department at Walter Reed, bear in mind that that particular operation had been privatized.
Now, think about all the shoddy construction in Iraq, where our soldiers are being electrocuted by faulty wiring, thanks to no-bid, cost-plus contracts with private companies.

My Father-in Law was admitted to the Minneapolis VA hospital to have a tumor removed from his lung. While in the hospital and after surgery he suffered a stroke leaving him paralyzed on one side. He survived both. What killed him was a brain hemorrhage he sufferred as a result of falling out of bed and hitting his head on the floor, while he was eating dinner. The staff left him alone, even though they were instructed not to. Have you ever been to the Minneapolis VA hospital? Yes I have. To make arrangements for my Father-in Law's funeral.

Darwinian wrote:

<quoted text>
So, you are proposing that we eliminate all government regulation of health care, eliminate health insurance, and let people pay for their own care, and those who cannot afford care should just shut up and die?
Do you also propose eliminating municipal fire and police departments? Should the rich hire private security firms, and the rest do without police and fire protection? How about municipal snow removal - should we all have to clear the streets if we feel like it?
And, how do you explain the fact that European pay half what we pay, per capita, for health care, are healthier than we are, have lower infant mortality, and higher life expectancy, and that European countries manage to cover everyone?

The answer to the only question you asked that makes sense is very simple.
The Europeans in question pay a significantly higher amount of their earnings in taxes. Also, if you take the United Nations figures as an accurate base thea verage life expectancy in the European Union as a whole is 78.70 years and in the United States is an average of 78.06 years. That's an average of .64 years or 21.9 days. Thank you but I prefer lower taxes.
According to the Forbes 2006 Misery Index the countries with the highest ratings were;
1. France 2. China 3. Belgium 4. Sweden 5. Italy. The highest United States entry was New York City at #23.
18 of the top 25 were European countries, 2 of top 25 were Asian countries, 2 of the top 25 were South American countries , 2 of the top 25 were North American countries and 1 was from the Middle East.
Shoots several holes in your theory, huh.

Irreverent One wrote:

<quoted text>
That's an average of .64 years or 21.9 days. Thank you but I prefer lower taxes.

How do you get .64 years being less than a month?

Also, a few countries in the EU live, on average, a full 2 years more than someone in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countrie...

Additionally, EU's quality of life is higher than the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_...

Not sure what facts you were using-I'd love to see citations.

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
How do you get .64 years being less than a month?
Also, a few countries in the EU live, on average, a full 2 years more than someone in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countrie...
Additionally, EU's quality of life is higher than the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_...
Not sure what facts you were using-I'd love to see citations.

You're splitting hairs....Even you must know the manipulated information spewed from wiki. If not I respectfully suggest you research its informational competency. While you're at it...you all are worried about John McCain kicking while in office. How old is his Mother?
Skin cancer is not usually a death sentence. Joe Biden and his aneurysms are more likely to be.

Grandpa Ken of 7 wrote:

<quoted text>
You're splitting hairs....Even you must know the manipulated information spewed from wiki. If not I respectfully suggest you research its informational competency. While you're at it...you all are worried about John McCain kicking while in office. How old is his Mother?
Skin cancer is not usually a death sentence. Joe Biden and his aneurysms are more likely to be.

21 days is different than 2 years.
I'm not concerned about McCain. Without treatment for Leukemia, I would have died 3 months after diagnosis (age 28). Anyone can go at any time.
Prove me wrong that many of the countries listed in my wiki post isn't near or above 80.
People complain that Wiki is so wrong with its info but usually can't disprove the facts I site:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/06/11/life.exp...

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
How do you get .64 years being less than a month?
Also, a few countries in the EU live, on average, a full 2 years more than someone in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countrie...
Additionally, EU's quality of life is higher than the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_...
Not sure what facts you were using-I'd love to see citations.

Quality of live is a highly personal idea, not something Wikipedia can really answer. Life expectancy holds a lot of variables. Here, for example, we have higher infant mortality brought about largely because of an open border and inner city baby machines. It's also impacted by high risk births, babies that might not have even been born in Europe. We also have more violence that moves the aggregate numbers but has nothing to do with healthcare systems.

You nearly died. Would you have rather been treated in Holland or St. Paul? My father-in-law is a Dutch doctor. He's brought patients to the U.S. that would've simply died in Holland on rationing. It's easy to talk like Mike Moore saying how fabulous things are in Cuba. But I know my choice, it's the U.S.

Grandpa Ken of 7 wrote:

<quoted text>
My Father-in Law was admitted to the Minneapolis VA hospital to have a tumor removed from his lung. While in the hospital and after surgery he suffered a stroke leaving him paralyzed on one side. He survived both. What killed him was a brain hemorrhage he sufferred as a result of falling out of bed and hitting his head on the floor, while he was eating dinner. The staff left him alone, even though they were instructed not to. Have you ever been to the Minneapolis VA hospital? Yes I have. To make arrangements for my Father-in Law's funeral.

This sort of thing happens at private hospitals too - research the statistics on medical errors and unnecessary deaths in hospitals in the US. One bad experience does not represent the full extent of excellent care at the VA system - the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Peter wrote:

<quoted text>
Fire and police protection are natural monopolies within cities, much like utilities. Healthcare isn't a natural monopoly any more than, say, grocery stores or computer manufacturing. Europe is different than us in a lot of ways. I'm not sure where you get this idea that they're healthier than us. The biggest difference between European healthcare and American healthcare is simple rationing. The government controls costs by simply restricting access generally. Sure, you can get an MRI, but that'll be in 6 months. We're also pretty dumb how we can't even make simple connections like between people without an ability to pay for healthcare and an open border.
There's an obvious principle at play when someone else pays. What do you suppose would happen to the auto industry if you told people that they no longer need to pay for a car themselves? Inflation.

Actually, people in Europe, in general, have better access to care than we have, and Canadians, who have longer waits for hip replacement, have better access than we have for emergent care as well as for urgent care on weekends and holidays. Canada, in fact, is the only country that has longer waits for health care than we have, and that is only for hip replacement and other elective procedures. The waits in Germany, for example, are a lot shorter than ours.
If you think health care is not rationed in this country, I have news for you - it is rationed, based on ability to pay. And, for 47 million Americans, there is virtually no access to health care.
The statistics for longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality come from the World Health Organization - Americans rank near the bottom, after all the European nations.

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
21 days is different than 2 years.
I'm not concerned about McCain. Without treatment for Leukemia, I would have died 3 months after diagnosis (age 28). Anyone can go at any time.
Prove me wrong that many of the countries listed in my wiki post isn't near or above 80.
People complain that Wiki is so wrong with its info but usually can't disprove the facts I site:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/06/11/life.exp...

I'm am happy for your successful treatment, I too am a cancer survivor of 3 years. And it scares the hell out of me thinking about the waiting periods for treatment under socialized medicine programs.

Did it ever occur to you that it may be lifestyle, not socialized medicine that contributes to the longer life expectancies?

Darwinian wrote:

<quoted text>
This sort of thing happens at private hospitals too - research the statistics on medical errors and unnecessary deaths in hospitals in the US. One bad experience does not represent the full extent of excellent care at the VA system - the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

True. So why are liberals condemning the facilties, care giver and the professionals in general with such passion, blaming the current administration for problems you say do not exist ?

Darwinian wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually, people in Europe, in general, have better access to care than we have, and Canadians, who have longer waits for hip replacement, have better access than we have for emergent care as well as for urgent care on weekends and holidays. Canada, in fact, is the only country that has longer waits for health care than we have, and that is only for hip replacement and other elective procedures. The waits in Germany, for example, are a lot shorter than ours.
If you think health care is not rationed in this country, I have news for you - it is rationed, based on ability to pay. And, for 47 million Americans, there is virtually no access to health care.
The statistics for longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality come from the World Health Organization - Americans rank near the bottom, after all the European nations.

Darwinian, do you know George Kane?

Grandpa Ken of 7 wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm am happy for your successful treatment, I too am a cancer survivor of 3 years. And it scares the hell out of me thinking about the waiting periods for treatment under socialized medicine programs.
Did it ever occur to you that it may be lifestyle, not socialized medicine that contributes to the longer life expectancies?

Thank you. Congrats on your remission, too!!! I watched Sicko with a very sick-o feeling in my stomach; people died here in the US because of HMO red tape. Lifestyles also contributes to shorter life expectancies as well...

I truly believe we can have universal health care, that's less expensive than it is collectively right now. I'm not advocating for a EU country version or even a Canada version. We know what doesn't work there. We can have a great program without the pitfalls of other countries. We've done it in other aspects of our life-why not with universal health care?

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
Thank you. Congrats on your remission, too!!! I watched Sicko with a very sick-o feeling in my stomach; people died here in the US because of HMO red tape. Lifestyles also contributes to shorter life expectancies as well...
I truly believe we can have universal health care, that's less expensive than it is collectively right now. I'm not advocating for a EU country version or even a Canada version. We know what doesn't work there. We can have a great program without the pitfalls of other countries. We've done it in other aspects of our life-why not with universal health care?

I don't believe that universal (nationalized) health care is the answer. What I do believe it's time to get rid of excessive administrative costs associated with the current HMO system. With my health plan I've been fortunate to maintain visits with my Doctor of choice. With a socialized system, the ability to consistently see the Doctor of your choice will be limited and in many cases impossible. I prefer the consistent patient/Doctor relationship.

Grandpa Ken of 7 wrote:

<quoted text>
I don't believe that universal (nationalized) health care is the answer. What I do believe it's time to get rid of excessive administrative costs associated with the current HMO system. With my health plan I've been fortunate to maintain visits with my Doctor of choice. With a socialized system, the ability to consistently see the Doctor of your choice will be limited and in many cases impossible. I prefer the consistent patient/Doctor relationship.

What about those without health care/insurance/coverage?

post 30

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
How do you get .64 years being less than a month?

Mellers, you are sharp today.

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
Lifestyles also contributes to shorter life expectancies as well...
I truly believe we can have universal health care,

I deleted some of your quote, but I think I did not change the meaning.
Doesn't the two statements above verify that universal health care is wishful thinking?